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I'd keep the fresh Hoosiers for hill-climb, as that seems to be what you're more interested in.
Absolutely correct. Adding in the TT is primarily so I can get at least some type of competition while at the track. The seat time VS NASA DE is about the same, but the crowd tends to be a bit more aware and higher skilled with traffic.
Five months after initial order, Kpower sent the last item, a modified valve cover to allow the hood to clear.
Fresh out of the packaging, prepped to be sandblasted:
I've never powedercoated before but after watching a few youtube videos I was basically an expert, its so simple. I was bouncing back and forth between classic Honda wrinkle red or gloss white, but there wasn't much red left in the company cabinet, so I settled for two coats of "Super Mirror White"
Slapped some blue on the dipstick and lettering on the valve color to make it a little more purdy, and there you go, a valve cover that actually clears the hood.
"Clears"
Yeah even my fully gutted, only the skin remaining, hood still touches. Yes, motor angle is correct and PPF was jacked as high as it could go during installation.
I hate this "solution", but I added 6mm of spacers between the body and subframe so the hood at least wasn't forcefully pressing on the valve cover. I don't see another option without one of those awful bubble hoods, or fabbing motor mounts/oil pan that sits the motor 1/2" lower.
Anyway, hood is now firmly attached to the car. Bonus, you can tell what motor is installed even with the hood closed, so much of it pokes though the vents.
Once the hood was on, I could confirm that my overcooling issues were not just from an excessive amount of venting, so I pulled the Tstat and slapped in a new one(car struggled to hit 150*, even with half the radiator blocked off).
This must have come from the factory like this(Gates brand) but it definitely had some issues.
Side note, this is the ONLY part from Rockauto to come bad/fail thus far for the entire build. Even my starter/alternator were sourced from RA.
Word of advice to anyone else struggling to bleed their K24Z3, poke two 1/8th inch holes though the Tstat right at the top to let the air though even with the Tstat closed. This made bleeding SO much easier. I came prepared with five gallons of water and ended up needing only two gallons, and additionally all of those two gallons went into the motor and didn't come back out onto the floor. No more violent eruptions of coolant, no more spiking to 230* and needing to cycle it, it rose to 220* a few times, eventually stopped burping air, and then settled into its normal 190-200 rhythm as the fan kicked on and off.
Also finally solved were my fuel pressure issues. After trying a new pump, purging the lines, and changing the fuel filter, the only thing left was the regulator itself. Disassembling the regulator didn't yield any visible damage or FOD, I ran down to Summit and picked up a new Aeromotive 13109, slightly larger then the compact model I did have and rated for higher pressures. Fuel pressure now holds dead nuts at 59-60 even at wot and blipping the throttle, and EGO no longer freaks out trying to stuff more fuel in to account for 20PSI drops. I also noticed that pressure does not bleed off nearly as quickly when primed.
Several other Kswap members are running the same compact regulator(Aeromotive 13136) without issues so I really don't know what the issue with mine was.
Last edited by Wingman703; 03-09-2022 at 11:09 PM.
With the last parts in and the first track shake down next weekend, I think I can call the initial build process "done", at least as far as installing the K24 and getting it running for street use goes.
This build process was done with an effort to be as cost effective as possible while not cutting critical corners. As a result there was a ton of fab work done by me that cut down on the final monetary cost but had a much higher labor hour cost. DIY'ing the complete exhaust, intake, fuel, and wiring systems probably saved me upwards of 3K, plus the ability to repair/further modify any of these systems in the future should the need arrive.
The part by part breakdowns are in the google spreadsheets document here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...Ks4/edit#gid=0 along with links to the parts I used where able, but the breakdown and totals by category are:
Ordered from Kpower: $3320
Swap parts sourced other places: $1900
Electrical overhaul: $1287
Engine costs: $1964
Exhaust: $359
Misc items: $320
For a total of $9105
For selling off my old BP4w and MS2, I got $2500, subtracting that leaves my "out of pocket cost" at...
$6650.
Honestly, I think that's pretty good, considering that comes right on par with Kpower's $6500+ "Ultimate" kit(once you add in the items not provided in their "ultimate" kit...).
One thing is for sure, I'm never going back to a BP. Now that that the hard to swallow, expensive swap is done, I have access to $600 motors that make 200whp+, rev to 8K, and have 600whp power potential, all right out of the junkyard. If I sling a rod, I'm out a week's time and $600 to be right back at it. Find me a good BP for $1000, much less one with less then 100K miles that isn't burning oil and snapping throttle bodys.
Looks great! If you're every at NCM in Bowling Green, KY make sure to hit me up!
Absolutely! I don't have *current* plans to be there this year, but I definitely want to get back up there after driving it in a friend's BP powered Miata late last year. Very fun track.
do you have a heater core? I did the same as you with a Brz with heat, and it wouldn’t get over 130 on a cooler freeway drive.
Nope, all that's been stripped out. It's still a little slow to come up to full temp in colder ambient(30*-50*) but it does come to temperature inside 10min of moving and stays there. Where as before it would struggle to hit 150*, and if stopped and allowed to heat up, would drop right back down as soon as you started moving.
Awesome to see everything working properly now (aside from the valve cover that "fits" I suppose). Your spreadsheet of costs and links is much appreciated. Though I haven't been able to find a Z3 for less than $1000 lately. All the local ones on car-part.com get scooped up in 24-48 hours it seems now, so I've been doing daily browsing and will have to jump on the next one that's within a couple hundred miles.
Though I haven't been able to find a Z3 for less than $1000 lately. All the local ones on car-part.com get scooped up in 24-48 hours it seems now, so I've been doing daily browsing and will have to jump on the next one that's within a couple hundred miles.
Arn't you out on the west coast? The market may be drastically different over there. The majority of motors I see in the southeast are listed in the $900-$1500 range(which is absolutely crazy to me, that's deep into A2 money), but there's still a good 20-30% that are $600 or less with ~100k miles/confirmed runners.
These pasted together results are all within 300mi of me. With the first motor I bought shipping was $100, delivered to a business address on a pallet.
Thanks for the reminder though, once things settle down a little for me I need to keep an eye out for a spare motor just to have it on hand.
As an amends for that butchered up image above, heres a non-garage photo with the hood actually on.
Oh, and one final touch, I got a properly sized Ktuned filter(thanks to arca for suggesting a velocity stack) and finished the intake. Only had to do one weld and a little trimming of my ducting to make it fit, but it's fed fresh air via a hole in the radiator inlet. IAT's stay within 15° of ambiant while just cruising around.
Arn't you out on the west coast? The market may be drastically different over there. The majority of motors I see in the southeast are listed in the $900-$1500 range(which is absolutely crazy to me, that's deep into A2 money), but there's still a good 20-30% that are $600 or less with ~100k miles/confirmed runners.
These pasted together results are all within 300mi of me. With the first motor I bought shipping was $100, delivered to a business address on a pallet.
No, I'm on the East Coast as well, in the Mid-Atlantic. Like you mentioned, Z3 prices are starting to look like A2 prices. The only ones less than $1000 within 100 miles have HEAVY front end damage going well into the engine compartment so I wasn't going to gamble on what else could be busted up in there. I don't mind paying whatever is necessary for an engine, especially if it's local, I was just hoping to not have to spend a grand on a Z3 based on how cheap they were when Kpower initially announced the swap. Anything over 100 miles away is going to cost enough in fuel to not make the trip worth it to save a few bucks. So, I'm sure I'll grab one of these eventually, just blows my budget a bit and I'll need to work a few more OT shifts.
Well looks like I'm going to be putting that "If I pop a motor its only $600 and a weekend to put a new one in" to the test. I lost the motor last night completely out of the blue.
Was cruising on the highway, normal oil temps, normal oil pressure, IAT's below 70*, engine had been running completely normally the entire day. Did a quick 3-4 pull, noticed that the exhaust picked up an extra little rattle at the end. Weird, but OK, I'll take a peek at it once I'm home.
5min later I realize the rattle is still there, and its varying with RPM and load. Oil pressure still holding 80PSI+
I go full limp mode to try and get it home, but the rattling got worse rapidly if I exceeded 35KPA, and then coolant temps started to climb. Once they hit 210* I found an exit to let it cool for a bit, but it died and wouldn't restart as soon as I coasted down the offramp. Pushed it into a gas station and started calling in favors. Two hours later I returned to said gas station with a borrowed truck and trailer and got the car to start enough to get it onto the trailer, and shortly after had it back to my house.
Started the teardown around 1am. I wanted to know if I had a shot at slapping a new motor into it and still trying to make it for my track shakedown this Sunday, or if my weekend was over already.
It's a little more of a complex pull due to the swap components, but an hour and a half later the motor is out of the car. The BP I could have out in 1hr 5min flat.
Onto the stand, drain the oil, check the filter. I was fairly sure that I would find bearing material, and I was not disappointed.
Oil had a fiesta of coppery colors in it, and there were some nuggets in the filter as well.
Flipped it over, pulled the pan, and the carnage was pretty obvious.
The culprit? Definitely the #1 rod that went. All the rest were rock solid but #1...
Pulled apart the Oil pump and took pictures of the inside. At this point it was 5am so I went to bed after getting these.
Talked to Kpower this morning, they took a look at the photos and said don't use it. They are able to sell me just the K20 pump and adaptor, unfortunately those parts aren't cheap at $450. Ouch, there goes my "$600 and I'm back at it!" right away.
Well... that sucks, but at least it happened close to home and not 5hrs away. At this point I have two weeks before I have another event, which should be plenty of time to put everything back together and put a few street miles on it. Guess my first track shakedown will be at RRR, not AMP as planned.
Last edited by Wingman703; 03-18-2022 at 11:58 AM.
That really sucks! Very sorry to hear. Your car felt really strong when you took me for a spin the other day. You had over 500 miles on that engine since the swap right?
Any thoughts on why it went? Oil pressure makes me think you were good with oil. Stock Honda Engine with some mileage makes me think everything was put together correctly from factory...you only touched the the oil pump right? and it doesn't look like that to me. Did you increase redline?!?! (thats really the only other thing that I could think of...unless the previous owner was constantly bouncing off the rev limiter before the oil was warmed up / with low to no oil in it)
I know you're in a bit of a time crunch, if you need an extra hand getting it back together etc. give me a shout. Happy to help.
That really sucks! Very sorry to hear. Your car felt really strong when you took me for a spin the other day. You had over 500 miles on that engine since the swap right?
Any thoughts on why it went? Oil pressure makes me think you were good with oil. Stock Honda Engine with some mileage makes me think everything was put together correctly from factory...you only touched the the oil pump right? and it doesn't look like that to me. Did you increase redline?!?! (thats really the only other thing that I could think of...unless the previous owner was constantly bouncing off the rev limiter before the oil was warmed up / with low to no oil in it)
I know you're in a bit of a time crunch, if you need an extra hand getting it back together etc. give me a shout. Happy to help.
I definitely had more than 500 miles on it, I bet I had over a 1000 on it at least. It pulled really good up until... it... didn't pull very well at all.
I don't have any idea why it died. It never had pressure issues. Cold starts would be 90-120PSI, hot idle 20-25PSI, WOT pulls 80-100PSI maintained. Any other Kswap owners I've asked don't really see anything amiss either. Just kinda... luck of the draw. I'm revving it out to 8K, which should be well within its limits(Flier129 seem to be revving out to 8300...).
Thanks for the offer, but I have it mostly in hand. I have the old motor completely torn down, and everything but the pan itself cleaned out and ready to go back. I have a few leads on a motor, so should have one in hand by next week.
I tune the a2s to 8500, I can’t imagine the z3s can’t do the same. No power up there for sure, but they’re plenty safe. A guy I work with has even tuned stock valve trains to 8600-8700. I really don’t think that’s the issue. While you have oil pressure at the sensor, make sure the entire engine has good pressure, head, chain, etc.
I tune the a2s to 8500, I can’t imagine the z3s can’t do the same. No power up there for sure, but they’re plenty safe. A guy I work with has even tuned stock valve trains to 8600-8700. I really don’t think that’s the issue. While you have oil pressure at the sensor, make sure the entire engine has good pressure, head, chain, etc.
I don't really know the internal differences between the motors rev wise. I've heard speculation that the valve springs are different, but no hard data on that.
Kpower recommends 7800 and I've seen people rev them much higher, but 8K is plenty for me to work with.
I have my pressure sensor in the same place the OEM does, just below the VTEC solenoid. Without running multiple sensors I don't see a way to pull multiple readings. The fact that only one bearing died tells me this wasn't widespread oil starvation though. I lack an E14 or whatever the fancy nuts on the rod ends are to check them, but I suspect when I get to it all the other bearings will be in near perfect condition.
Curly, out of curiosity, what's the maximum spark angle you normally end up using for K24's? I think I maxed out around 22.5/23* on 93 pump gas, and 25/26* on E85? I tuned mine for MBT but didn't have cans to confirm I wasn't getting light knock like that. Just kept cranking up the timing until it stopped making power, then dialed it back to minimum spark for peak power. The only left field situation I can come up with is it was tuned on a colder day, and then as the weather changed IAT's climbed, things heatsoaked, and the bearing died before a rod bent/piston melted. But that's a very, very far fetched scenario IMHO, especially as its been running ~E72 for the last three weeks and compression was perfect as of a few weeks ago.
Actually, here's both my spark maps for 93 and E85, as well as a copy of my tune file. If anyone sees anything they think even might have contributed, please speak up. I'm not a professional tuner by any means, and this is the first car/engine I've tuned from scratch.
Pump 93 spark map:
E85(most I've managed to get around here is E72) spark map:
Last edited by Wingman703; 03-18-2022 at 10:45 PM.
I'd wager how that particular engine was treated its previous 90k miles is the main culprit vs anything you did with it. Fingers crossed all your KP components are reusable that way you can just source another engine real quick and be good to go before hillclimbs.
Agreed, I don’t think your work had much to do with it. At least I’d assume that unless you have issues with motor #2.
I tune these similar to BPs, around 28* peak. I have talked to the guys at English Racing which do a huge amount of Hondas. Miles (look up worlds fastest integra) says the stock knock sensor is sorta useless, and he turns them off. We found similar results, the knock sensor would just count any time it was above idle. In case you look into that. I’ve found that ~28* peak after watching a very experienced Hondata tuner tune 3 miatas, then I found similar on a haltech’d BRZ, and I just had my first hondata experience with an e30 yesterday actually. Again, all A2s though.
Fingers crossed all your KP components are reusable that way you can just source another engine real quick and be good to go before hillclimbs.
Everything is good except for their custom oil pump assembly. It definitely had some wear marks in it from eating bearing material. I was leaning on reusing it as it still made pressure just fine, but Kpower said they would not recommend using it, so I ordered a new K20 pump and adaptor from them for $450 just to be on the safe side.
At least they had them in stock and shipped same day...
02-28-2022, 10:02 AM
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