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Old 02-05-2014, 04:00 PM   #41
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I have never understood why so many of the people who are strongly impassioned on both sides of this debate feel that the two ideas- divine providence and Darwinian evolution- are fundamentally incompatible and must therefore be mutually exclusive.

One is a philosophical concept which describes the "why" of the fundamental origin of life on earth, while the other is a very simple physical description which addresses the "how," and explores the underlying mechanics of the process by which life, once already extant, progressed from A to B to C.

These ideas are not in conflict.

For those who would stereotypically consider themselves to be of the "pro-evolution, anti-creationism" camp, I cannot understand why one must eliminate the other. Darwinian evolution describes the physical process by which life changes from one for to another- it makes no effort to explain the origin of life itself. It's almost as though they are not so much in support of any specific scientific theory as merely opposed to the concept of religion.

Likewise, adherents to the Judeo-Christian faith need not reject the ideas put forth by evolutionary science, as the Genesis story of creation is inherently allegorical in nature. It never describes the exact physical process by which the various forms of life on earth took shape, there is nothing in it to be contradicted by an evolutionist description of the process. So for these people as well, I cannot see why they must consider evolution to be an attack on their beliefs.


I mean, let us presuppose, for the sake of argument, that God exists and that the Christian bible is more-or-less accurate, if more in a figurative than a literal sense. Given that, answer me this:

If God said “Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the vault of the sky,” who is to say by what physical process this command was actually implemented, or argue that Darwinian-style evolution did not take place during this act of "creation"?
I could not have put it better myself.
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Old 02-05-2014, 04:02 PM   #42
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or better put: who cares?
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Old 02-05-2014, 04:16 PM   #43
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Rule 41.
Voluntary and involuntary dismissal of actions by a court?

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or better put: who cares?
People who enjoy participating in lively, spirited debate, rather than just burying their heads in the sand and clinging blindly to their own belief, rejecting all other points of view.
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Old 02-05-2014, 06:05 PM   #44
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burying their heads in the sand and clinging blindly to their own belief, rejecting all other points of view.
isn't that religion?
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Old 02-05-2014, 06:14 PM   #45
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isn't that religion?
Not specifically, no.

It is a behavior typical of many extremist adherents of various religions, as I address in para 5 of my above. It is also typical of many extremist adherents of non-religious beliefs*. I question WHY this is so, using the specific question of evolution and creationism as a case study.


* = examples here would include such varied topics as gun control, automotive safety standards, the role which carbohydrates play in a healthy diet, airport planning, etc.
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Old 02-05-2014, 07:13 PM   #46
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Obviously neither Bill or Ken had evolved as they were still using Imac's.

And here I was afraid this post wouldn't encourage thoughtful banter.

I was pretty bored most of the 1.5 hours but did get to see lots of pictures of rocks so it was a win/win for me and rocks, neither of which have evolved much according to my wife.
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Old 02-05-2014, 07:45 PM   #47
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what? that's your response!? do you understand how perfect that gif was?!

It's Macho Man Randy Savage in a loop so he looks like a grunting ape holding an imaginary banana. He also *SNAPS* into slim jims.
My brain was still stuck on evolving pokemanz.
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Old 02-11-2014, 02:42 PM   #48
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Bill Nye and Ken Ham to debate evolution vs. creationism 2/4/14-clzzuhl.jpg   Bill Nye and Ken Ham to debate evolution vs. creationism 2/4/14-2nxv2wp.jpg   Bill Nye and Ken Ham to debate evolution vs. creationism 2/4/14-f5vqjhw.jpg   Bill Nye and Ken Ham to debate evolution vs. creationism 2/4/14-ol4gdy8.jpg  
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Old 02-11-2014, 03:00 PM   #49
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they are great. I love how they word their retarded [rhetorical] questions.

in what ways does the author's use of prison symbolize the protagonists struggle?
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Old 02-11-2014, 06:12 PM   #50
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You tried, Joe, you tried.

I think that you are espousing the currently accepted Roman Catholic perspective, which is pretty good at rejecting the "either / or" perspectives. The concept is to understand life as taught by the Word of God (Bible) in conjunction with the Works of God (nature), and that both should be taken together in the search for truth.

I think that science should be, and is, a-religious, but many anti-religion people try to purport otherwise.

I, too, may be too late to this party to seriously engage, but that's my two cents. (and all the ways I know how to use the homonyms of 2).
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Old 02-11-2014, 06:33 PM   #51
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Once again... Trolls win...

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Old 02-12-2014, 02:54 PM   #52
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“And why are you doing it?”

“For something better than what we have.”

“Idealism again? I’m telling you, Tom, you’ll live to regret it. Or die.”

“Not idealism, or even fatalism, but simply an idea put into action.”

Captain Jack shook his head slowly. “I’ve fought for and against pretty much every cause there is. There will always be war of some kind. At first it was over fertile soil and good water, then precious metal and then the most popular version of human disagreement, ‘My God is better than your God.’ Whether you draw your faith from Jeremiah and Jesus, Allah and Muhammad or Brahma and Buddha, it doesn’t matter. Someone will tell you you’re wrong, and he’ll fight you over it. Me, I believe in aliens, and to hell with all earthly gods. In the grand scheme of a trillion planets in the universe we’re just not that damn important anyway. And humans are rotten to the core.”

“Buddha rose above materialism. Jesus was champion of embracing one’s enemies. As was Gandhi.”

“Jesus was betrayed and died on the cross, and Gandhi was murdered by a Hindu who was ticked off Gandhi tolerated Muslims,” Captain Jack pointed out.

Hemingway paced the room. “I remember my father telling me about England’s redrawing of India’s boundaries when it became independent. They wanted to separate the Hindu from the Muslim, but they used outdated maps. Twelve million people had to relocate because the Brits screwed it up so badly. And a half million people died during the resulting chaos. And before that, Iraq was unilaterally cobbled together, causing many of the conflicts we see today. There are dozens of such examples. The strong countries smashing the weaker ones and then avoiding responsibility later for the very problems they caused.”

“You keep proving my point, Tom, that we’re rotten to the core.”

“My point is we never learn!”

“And what, you think you have a better answer?” Hemingway didn’t respond. Captain Jack rose but then paused at the door. “I doubt that I’ll see you again, unless you end up heading to a small island in the South Pacific. If you do, you’ll be welcome. Unless you’re a fugitive. Then, my friend, you’re on your own.”
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Old 02-14-2014, 02:04 PM   #53
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So I'm listening to this now in the background as I work, and right within the first minute I'm already annoyed.

Tom Foreman (moderator): "I'm pleased to be tonight's moderator for this 'evolution vs. creation' debate."

Right off the bat, the moderator has set down the idea that this is a clear-cut, either / or issue, where by definition someone must be right and someone must be wrong.

This kind of polarization makes for entertaining television, but poor academic debate.
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Old 02-14-2014, 02:14 PM   #54
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“And why are you doing it?”

“For something better than what we have.”

“Idealism again? I’m telling you, Tom, you’ll live to regret it. Or die.”

“Not idealism, or even fatalism, but simply an idea put into action.”

Captain Jack shook his head slowly. “I’ve fought for and against pretty much every cause there is. There will always be war of some kind. At first it was over fertile soil and good water, then precious metal and then the most popular version of human disagreement, ‘My God is better than your God.’ Whether you draw your faith from Jeremiah and Jesus, Allah and Muhammad or Brahma and Buddha, it doesn’t matter. Someone will tell you you’re wrong, and he’ll fight you over it. Me, I believe in aliens, and to hell with all earthly gods. In the grand scheme of a trillion planets in the universe we’re just not that damn important anyway. And humans are rotten to the core.”

“Buddha rose above materialism. Jesus was champion of embracing one’s enemies. As was Gandhi.”

“Jesus was betrayed and died on the cross, and Gandhi was murdered by a Hindu who was ticked off Gandhi tolerated Muslims,” Captain Jack pointed out.

Hemingway paced the room. “I remember my father telling me about England’s redrawing of India’s boundaries when it became independent. They wanted to separate the Hindu from the Muslim, but they used outdated maps. Twelve million people had to relocate because the Brits screwed it up so badly. And a half million people died during the resulting chaos. And before that, Iraq was unilaterally cobbled together, causing many of the conflicts we see today. There are dozens of such examples. The strong countries smashing the weaker ones and then avoiding responsibility later for the very problems they caused.”

“You keep proving my point, Tom, that we’re rotten to the core.”

“My point is we never learn!”

“And what, you think you have a better answer?” Hemingway didn’t respond. Captain Jack rose but then paused at the door. “I doubt that I’ll see you again, unless you end up heading to a small island in the South Pacific. If you do, you’ll be welcome. Unless you’re a fugitive. Then, my friend, you’re on your own.”

The Arab shook his head. “We are very different people, different in ways your country refuses to recognize.”

“The more we’re different, perhaps the more we’re the same. We all want peace.”

“Excuse me for saying so, but that is your Buddhist bullshit talking.” The man took another sip of water. “America spends more on its military than all other countries in the world combined. No country does this for protection, for peace, only aggression. Your president can push one button, and the Arab world disappears in a mushroom cloud.”

“We have no reason to do that. Great strides have been made in the Middle East. Democracies are replacing dictatorships.”

“Yes, replacing dictatorships that America helped foster and support. And yet, in most cases, the democracies coming to power hate America more than the dictators they replaced. You went into Iraq not understanding its history or its culture. America seemed amazed that Great Britain took a land called Mesopotamia and artificially created a country it called Iraq. And that its population is composed of Shiites and Sunnis and Kurds and dozens of other groups that are not known to get along with one another. Did you really think you would waltz in and save the Iraqis and everything would be peaceful?” He held up his hand. “And one cannot ‘bomb’ people into a democracy. That comes from the ground up, not the sky down. Muslims going to the voting booths pass the bomb craters that took their families. Do you think the possibility of having an American-style democracy will ever make them forget who killed their husbands, wives and children?”

“My country needs to recognize that there are many ways to be free. I fear that we still see the only way to resolve things is our way.”

The Arab took another sip of water. “It is a nice sentiment, Tom, but not one, I think, that is shared by your leaders. Mighty God could vanquish your army with one sweep of his hand. Yet we mortal Arabs simply cannot beat you militarily with all your money and weapons. And we see American businesses and American pipelines marching behind the great American armies. You say your goal is a free world. Well, Africa has more dictators than the Middle East, and the genocide there is far worse. Yet I see no American tanks blasting their way through that land. But, of course, the Middle East has far more oil. Do not think we poor desert savages aren’t aware that America’s goals are less than altruistic, Tom. At least allow us that courtesy.”

“Freedom is a good thing, my friend. And America is the world’s most free country.”

“Really? A country that had slaves for two hundred and fifty years and kept the black man de facto enslaved for a hundred more? But I have also seen your style of freedom personally. Over fifty years ago Iran had a democratically elected prime minister who had the effrontery to nationalize the petroleum industry. American oil companies were hardly pleased. So your CIA helped overthrow the government and reinstall the puppet shah. His pathetic love of Western ways led to the Iranian revolution, and all hope for real democracy ended there. America has played these games all over the globe, from Chile to Pakistan. The Western world’s policies have led directly to the slaughter of countless millions across the world.” He paused and studied Hemingway closely. “So if the new government in Iraq is not to America’s liking?”

“And yet I know that you believe in freedom,” Hemingway said quietly. “As a young boy I sat and listened to you and my father discuss such things.”

“It is true that I have fought my whole life for certain freedoms that are in keeping with the word of God. I see clearly the benefits of people having a strong voice in their lives. I do not agree with how Muslim women are treated in some Arab countries. And it sickens me to see grand palaces rising next to mud huts. The Muslim world has many problems, and we need to address them. Yet is it really freedom when someone else tells you what you should be seeking? And why doesn’t it work both ways, Tom? America represents less than five percent of the earth’s population yet consumes one-quarter of its energy. Poor nations cannot get the energy they need, and their citizens suffer and die because America takes so much. So should these countries invade the great energy dictator America and make it use less oil and gas? Would the U.S. like that?”

“If you feel that way, can I ask why you’re helping me?”

The man shrugged. “It is simple. For every American killed, hundreds of Arabs die. Arab suicide bombers are now slaughtering their brethren by the thousands. We are weakening ourselves with every new explosion and playing right into the hands of the United States.” He paused and took another sip of water. “The Western press is fixated on suicide bombers killing themselves so that they can enter paradise. But God says that to save lives is a great thing. To save one life is to save many. Do we have to be slaughtered to enter paradise? Why can’t Muslims enjoy a peaceful life on earth, believe in God and serve him and enter paradise that way? In the Western world the young ones grow up in peace. Do our children not deserve that right?”

“Of course they do,” Hemingway said.

“Your country is asking the impossible, you know this. Before the 1970s energy crisis America did not care about the Middle East, other than the Arab versus Israeli issue. Then 9/11 happened and you attacked the Taliban. I have no issue with that. In your place I would have done the same thing. Yet the goal you seek now, turning the entire Middle East into a democracy overnight, is madness. You ask us to do in years what it took you centuries to accomplish.” He paused. “And it is not simply a question of Islam against the West. For thousands of years Arab nations developed customs and cultures inextricably tied to a desert climate with few natural resources, often with the law of the tribe as their base, and the men as their leaders. For a very long time America had no problem with that. And now they do, of course and thus, according to you, we must change. Immediately. So far a hundred thousand Iraqis have died and the country is in chaos. I cannot applaud the progress, Tom. I really can’t.”

“I can only do my best. If it doesn’t work, what will have been lost?”

“Many good lives, that is what will be lost, Tom,” the Arab said sternly.

“And that is no different than what’s happening right now,” Hemingway replied.

“You have an answer for everything. Just like your father. It was in Beijing that he was killed?”

Hemingway nodded.

“Surely not the Chinese, though. They’re vicious but hardly stupid.”

Hemingway shrugged. “I have my suspicions. Officially, it was never solved.”

“It is interesting about the Chinese, Tom. They will one day replace America as the world’s largest economy. They have an army ten times the size of yours, and it is growing stronger and more technologically advanced every day. They have the capability to hit the United States with nuclear weapons. They kill and enslave millions of their own people, and yet you call them friends, while America crushes the Arab world under the pretense of freeing us. Do you know what we Arabs say? We say, go and ‘free’ your friends, the Chinese. But America does not do this. Why? Because the Chinese will not fight back with rifles and car bombs as we Muslims are forced to. Thus, you leave them alone. And you call them friends.”

“My father didn’t think of them as all that friendly actually.”

“A wise man. He has gone on to a better world now.”

“I’m an atheist. So I’m not sure where he’s gone on to.”

The Arab stared at him in sadness. “It is an insult to yourself not to believe in God, Tom.”

“I believe in myself.”

“But when your physical being ceases to exist, where does that leave you?” The Arab paused and said, “With nothing.”

“It is my freedom to make that choice,” Hemingway said firmly.

The Arab rose from his chair. “Good-bye, Tom, and good luck. We will not see each other again.”
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Old 02-14-2014, 02:21 PM   #55
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I have to ask, in all sincerity, why you are quoting David Baldacci in a serious thread.
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Old 02-14-2014, 02:53 PM   #56
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I'm reading a story and sharing the wisdom inside.
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Old 02-14-2014, 02:54 PM   #57
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So I'm listening to this now in the background as I work, and right within the first minute I'm already annoyed.

Tom Foreman (moderator): "I'm pleased to be tonight's moderator for this 'evolution vs. creation' debate."

Right off the bat, the moderator has set down the idea that this is a clear-cut, either / or issue, where by definition someone must be right and someone must be wrong.

This kind of polarization makes for entertaining television, but poor academic debate.
If God is perfect, and we are created in His image, where is there room for evolution?

*as far as humans are concerned.
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Old 02-14-2014, 02:56 PM   #58
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If God is perfect, and we are created in His image, where is there room for evolution?
If God is perfect, and we are created in His image, are we not then gods?
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Old 02-14-2014, 03:00 PM   #59
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“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?”
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Old 02-14-2014, 03:02 PM   #60
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If God is perfect, and we are created in His image, where is there room for evolution?

*as far as humans are concerned.
If we presuppose that what you say is true (that man was created by an infinitely capable God), then why must evolution be excluded as a tool which was used in said act of creation?

Why could He not have started the ball rolling, so to speak, by setting that first marble into play back at the Big Bang, then lounged back and watched everything unfold?



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If God is perfect, and we are created in His image, are we not then gods?
If I slap a fiberglass body-kit onto a Pontiac Fiero, does that make it a Lamborghini Countach?
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