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Old 12-19-2011, 06:43 PM   #21
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And here's another example that just hit me. I hear a lot of people saying we should privatize the post office. You know what? The Netherlands and several other countries did that.

I don't know of one Dutch that doesn't long for the days of their old post office back. Granted, there may be differences with others, but all that I have talked to about it universally hate the privatized new system (The delivery schedule is so much worse, they cut back on so many post offices so I can't get to one anymore, it's so much more expensive to send packages, etc.) compared to the old public system.
AND it requires constant cash infusions from the government just to stay solvent!

Oh wait -- it doesn't?
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Old 12-19-2011, 06:45 PM   #22
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AND it requires constant cash infusions from the government just to stay solvent!

Oh wait -- it doesn't?
I don't know if the Dutch system required that originally, sorry. I do know it had significant differences from our system.

What I do know is the privatized corporation is constantly in trouble with violating the terms they signed with the Dutch government over trying to constantly reduce deliverys/service areas/et al in violation of their contract w/the government - even though they are making a hefty profit as is.
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Old 12-19-2011, 06:55 PM   #23
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lulz at that PDF. Some of the section headings:


The Public Will Not Receive Full Value

Private Companies Often Engage in Risky Financial Schemes

The Public Will Not Receive Full Value

Inadequate Oversight Exists to Ensure the Public Interest is Protected




Good thing these problems don't exist with public spending.
This is the binary thinking I often reference. If someone says "private sector spending can have significant corruption, waste and inefficiencies," it is not the same as saying "public sector spending is always (or even mostly) free of significant corruption, waste and inefficiencies."

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I don't know of one Dutch that doesn't long for the days of their old post office back. Granted, there may be differences with others, but all that I have talked to about it universally hate the privatized new system (The delivery schedule is so much worse, they cut back on so many post offices so I can't get to one anymore, it's so much more expensive to send packages, etc.) compared to the old public system.
That actually seems to be "the free market" saying that the old system probably wasn't cost effective at its former size and that most users probably aren't willing to pay the price necessary to operate at higher levels of service.
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Old 12-19-2011, 06:58 PM   #24
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I don't know if the Dutch system required that originally, sorry. I do know it had significant differences from our system.

What I do know is the privatized corporation is constantly in trouble with violating the terms they signed with the Dutch government over trying to constantly reduce deliverys/service areas/et al in violation of their contract w/the government - even though they are making a hefty profit as is.
Sounds terrible. Can you imagine the mess we'd have if we allowed private companies to handle important stuff like air and ground shipping directly with consumers?
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Old 12-19-2011, 06:58 PM   #25
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That actually seems to be "the free market" saying that the old system probably wasn't cost effective at its former size and that most users probably aren't willing to pay the price necessary to operate at higher levels of service.
The actual numbers would disagree. See: Corporation making a hefty profit, and still trying to raise prices and cut service to increase profits even further - and most notably, against the contract they signed w/the government.
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Old 12-19-2011, 06:59 PM   #26
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Sounds terrible. Can you imagine the mess we'd have if we allowed private companies to handle important stuff like air and ground shipping directly with consumers?
Actually, air and ground shipping are great points in the US. We have competition in those areas.

My argument against privatization involves monopoly or oligopoly situations.
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Old 12-19-2011, 06:59 PM   #27
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This is the binary thinking I often reference. If someone says "private sector spending can have significant corruption, waste and inefficiencies," it is not the same as saying "public sector spending is always (or even mostly) free of significant corruption, waste and inefficiencies."
No, I'm not really arguing that either could be free of those things -- but it's only through government authority that corruption, waste, and inefficiency are rewarded rather than punished.
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Old 12-19-2011, 07:00 PM   #28
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im loling at oversight.
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Old 12-19-2011, 07:00 PM   #29
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No, I'm not really arguing that either could be free of those things -- but it's only through government authority that corruption, waste, and inefficiency is rewarded rather than punished.
You also see these in excess in monopoly or oligopoly situations Mg.

If you can figure out a way to have privatization of roads with significant competition, I'm all ears.
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Old 12-19-2011, 07:01 PM   #30
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You also see these in excess in monopoly or oligopoly situations Mg.
...which arise when government policies favor certain groups to the detriment of others.
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Old 12-19-2011, 07:03 PM   #31
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...which arise when government policies favor certain groups to the detriment of others.
Untrue. There are numerous monopolies and oligopolies that have arisen independent of the government. Microsoft is a great example of this, complete with abusive behavior, corruption, et al that you are complaining about in the 90s.
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Old 12-19-2011, 07:03 PM   #32
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By the way, I don't have to "figure out" how to have competition in the market. The market produces it -- if profits are available, individuals and companies will compete.

When the TV was invented, who could have "figured out" the various ways that content producers compete with each other for advertising money and subscription fees?
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Old 12-19-2011, 07:04 PM   #33
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Untrue. There are numerous monopolies and oligopolies that have arisen independent of the government. Microsoft is a great example of this, complete with abusive behavior, corruption, et al that you are complaining about in the 90s.


Microsoft was a monopoly?
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Old 12-19-2011, 07:07 PM   #34
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By the way, I don't have to "figure out" how to have competition in the market. The market produces it -- if profits are available, individuals and companies will compete.

When the TV was invented, who could have "figured out" the various ways that content producers compete with each other for advertising money and subscription fees?
Okay. So, let's look at public roads then.

What is your proposal to make them a place where competition can exist, and competing companies can all strive to bring a better product to a consumer?

This is where I don't "grok" what you are trying to say. It's one of the major disconnects I see with Block.

I find it extremely unrealistic to have, say, 3 highways right next to each other that can compete with each other. But, and I am certain you have driven at least as much as I have on our roads, in many cases there is only one or two viable routes to a place that isn't seriously contrived. How do you propose to address this?

Cliffs: My argument against privatization is against monopolistic and oligopolistic behavior
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Old 12-19-2011, 07:07 PM   #35
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Microsoft was a monopoly?
I'd go so far as to argue it still is, but the bullshit they pulled in the '90s isn't so blatant anymore.
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Old 12-19-2011, 07:49 PM   #36
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Just got home from work. Going to keep this short because I'm dying to take a hot shower. Today was ******* blistering cold where I was working and I smashed my pinky finger in the rebar cutter. Thankfully no more than a bruised fingernail, but the cold made it throb like a bitch all day. lol

Without reading too much of whats been posted since the original post I read, this is what I'm disagreeing with.

You honestly believe that "government built" roads would be any better than private sector built roads? I mean really. What makes you think that a bunch suits in hardhats that know next to NOTHING about construction, handing over a check to some union workers that milk that job for every penny (and it was overpaid to begin with!) will produce a "better" job? Or better yet, what makes you think a private sector business couldn't do just as good of a job?

Government jobs ALWAYS overpay. Always. Sometimes the labor being billed wasn't even produced either! Its such a bullshit system that's in place and I hope to one day be a part of changing it actually.

I've worked hand and hand next to many different union trades and all of them have been 100% lacking in every department. All the private (most are family owned) sector contractors have such a different work moral and quality they bring to the table. Jobs are done faster because they aren't being over billed! There's pride with private sector businesses. The list goes on and on.

I await your response.
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Old 12-19-2011, 07:51 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by blaen99 View Post

I don't know of one Dutch that doesn't long for the days of their old post office back. Granted, there may be differences with others, but all that I have talked to about it universally hate the privatized new system (The delivery schedule is so much worse, they cut back on so many post offices so I can't get to one anymore, it's so much more expensive to send packages, etc.) compared to the old public system.
Didn’t realize they did that. Maybe that explains why when I ordered something from Holland in 2008 it took 4 days to arrive at my door and the tracking worked the whole time. Ordered the same thing this year and it took 4 weeks and disappeared from tracking in the transfer to USP. I thought it was lost but they wouldn’t allow me to file anything saying I didn’t get my package for 30 days.

Bob
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Old 12-19-2011, 07:56 PM   #38
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Just got home from work. Going to keep this short because I'm dying to take a hot shower. Today was ******* blistering cold where I was working and I smashed my pinky finger in the rebar cutter. Thankfully no more than a bruised fingernail, but the cold made it throb like a bitch all day. lol

Without reading too much of whats been posted since the original post I read, this is what I'm disagreeing with.

You honestly believe that "government built" roads would be any better than private sector built roads? I mean really. What makes you think that a bunch suits in hardhats that know next to NOTHING about construction, handing over a check to some union workers that milk that job for every penny (and it was overpaid to begin with!) will produce a "better" job? Or better yet, what makes you think a private sector business couldn't do just as good of a job?

Government jobs ALWAYS overpay. Always. Sometimes the labor being billed wasn't even produced either! Its such a bullshit system that's in place and I hope to one day be a part of changing it actually.

I've worked hand and hand next to many different union trades and all of them have been 100% lacking in every department. All the private (most are family owned) sector contractors have such a different work moral and quality they bring to the table. Jobs are done faster because they aren't being over billed! There's pride with private sector businesses. The list goes on and on.

I await your response.
I agree with you completely, Vash. Seriously, you have no arguments from me about your post - I worked in construction for a summer myself. My experiences completely mirror yours.

What I don't understand is what it has to do with my base argument ("The highways would have not been built without federal funding"), and as a result, the benefit to the US as you said you are only arguing with the OP in this post.

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Didn’t realize they did that. Maybe that explains why when I ordered something from Holland in 2008 it took 4 days to arrive at my door and the tracking worked the whole time. Ordered the same thing this year and it took 4 weeks and disappeared from tracking in the transfer to USP. I thought it was lost but they wouldn’t allow me to file anything saying I didn’t get my package for 30 days.

Bob
That sounds a lot like what the Dutch I've talked to say about it.

P.S. Going back to the Netherlands and Germany in February. I'll be able to get more feedback on it then and see if it's improved or not in their perception.
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Old 12-19-2011, 07:57 PM   #39
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I don't know of one Dutch that doesn't long for the days of their old post office back. Granted, there may be differences with others, but all that I have talked to about it universally hate the privatized new system (The delivery schedule is so much worse, they cut back on so many post offices so I can't get to one anymore, it's so much more expensive to send packages, etc.) compared to the old public system.
What do you actually know about Dutchland? Have you lived here?
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Old 12-19-2011, 07:59 PM   #40
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What do you actually know about Dutchland? Have you lived here?
I visit very regularly, actually. Eindhoven and Rosmalen are my regular haunts there, specifically. Looking into potential Dutch citizenship in the future. That answer your question?
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