I agree it would be silly to shell out $4k for a turbo setup and not at least consider the 1.8 swap.

However:

My stock '01 VVT dyno'd 108.5 hp on a dyno dynamics dyno @ 3400' altitude, recently Grassroots motorsports made 110 horpower on a dynojet with a 1.6 using '99 Miata injectors and an RX-7 MAF, on an otherwise stock 1.6, I think the injectors were $40 (+cleaning) plus the cost of a used RX-7 MAF, a lot cheaper than $600 plus the labour to do the 1.8 swap for the same horsepower.

Clearly the 1.8 is the better choice if you want 250+ horsepower, but then again arguably you should be buying an '01 plus (or at least a '99 up) to begin with so you can get sport brakes, better suspension geometry, LSD, 6 speed, VVT, stiffer chassis... Again my point here is that not everyone wants the same thing, for a lot of people a basic FM or BEGI kit, or a diy using their hard parts (could be done for under $2500), is a viable alternative that will give good street performance and can be done for a relatively low cost.

Jim

it's actually funny you picked that bogus dyno plot of any to gravitate to, and ignore the ones i posted, as that plot would be about what you'd expect from a low boost 1.8L setup.

a dyno dynamics outputs about 12-16% lower than a dynojet; now you're just trolling. it's not even about peak numbers, it's about area under curve, this effect is furthered when coupled with a turbo.

you're just being annoying now, it's not even fun.

yes, actually you should get a +01 over any other miata, for all those reasons.



IB4 "revvy" is mentioned.

Sav, you don't need a full exhaust or Toyota/LS coils to make 200-220 whp, and according to Corky Bell a healthy stock fuel pump will do 250whp

buy an FM manifold kit for $750 or a BEGI manifold/downpipe for $694, a DIY PNP kit based on the MS2 from Bell for $425, a good used T25 or churbo on ebay for a few hundred, some RX-7 injectors, an innovate wideband and an ebay intercooler and you have a good reliable turbo kit for around $2K. I am not suggesting this is a top of the line option, but it is certainly good quality and sufficient for 200-220 whp.

Jim

if you dont put a full exhaust on your 1.6L and expect 150rwtq by 3K, you're wet dreaming. That's an important number to hit if you don't want piss-poor performance compared to your dad's buick lesabre.

It's only bogus because it doesn't fit with you're argument, I don't believe he made those numbers on 7psi, but with all due respect it's just as believable as 310whp@12psi on an EFR6258 and you never blinked at that one.

Are you going to ban me again now just because I have the balls to disagree with you?

Jim

Cool. I'm still confused as to what your completely untuned motor has to do with anything. If you are trying to argue that a 1.8 swap isn't the best performance-per-dollar upgrade you can do, there is plenty of data that proves you wrong.

IIRC 99MX5 threw a rod @9psi, so 310@12psi seems about right.

yes.

Now your just being a dick, I said you didn't need it to make 200whp, you changed it all around to 150 wtq@3k rpm so you could twist my words and make my statement look wrong. My comment included nothing about making a certain amount of torque by a certain rpm, neither did Savington for that matter.

Jim

Have you always been a huge pussy or is this something new?

Just proves what a childish little dick you are, poor baby can't stand it when someone stands up to him.

It's new, just because he was a whiney little baby and banned me the last time I disagreed with him

Come on, 310 whp @ 12 psi is total bullshit, at 18-20psi sure but no way at 12. Throwing a rod has nothing to do with how much boost he was running, there are lot's of reasons rods go, and others have lost rods at lower power levels.

Jim

no, it's because I have had my miata strapped to a dyno over 15 times, and in this time I've seen and collected a robust collection of other members dyno runs as well.

7psi with the sr20 t25 hiting 210rwhp on a 1.6L is simply not plasiable. not because it fits with my argument, because that's reality. It is wasn't just me who questioned the dyno numbers, every other person in that thread did as well.

310@13.5psi on the EFR6258 is believeable because it was done a local dynojet, he had logs to correspond with the dyno pull, and has a well documented setup. I've seen similar numbers on a 2560 at 14psi and soviets EFR numbers are very similar as well. ehold the power of more displacement...Ari is also not some random dude who posted here for the first time and has zero creditbility. you'll also notice that I still don't believe Nitrodann's 325rwhp at 25psi number...

it's called experience, something in your 45 long years you should have picked up by now...but then again you probably work minimum wage considering how much you care about piecing together a cheap POS setup using na rx7 AFM and lack any knowledge gained from this website. i bet your boss hates you but he cant fire you because you'll claim it's because youre gay.

You forgot where he compared 2 different miatas on different types of dynos at different elevations and said the hp being the same is good.

Lets think about this for a minute, shall we? Lets just say he made 233wtq@9psi, seem believable? It does for me, the 6258 has a larger turbine AND compressor than the popular GT2560.

So hold that 233wtq all the way to 7000rpm and we get 310hp. 233*7000/5250 = 310.

First off I couldn't care less about the RX-7 MAF, it was merely an example of what can be done on a budget...

How much money have you put into your Miata asshole? My Miata including the cost of the car now has around $22K in it, all paid for in cash, I own outright 6 quads, 3 street bikes a Lexus GS300 with a 2JZ-FTE swapped in, an 07 Chev 2500, a 69 Fiat 850, a Lexus ES300 a 34 Dutchmen trailer and my 1200 sq ft house, and I have over $600,000 in a pension plan lets see you do that on a minimum wage job shit head.

It's funny how you always resort to personal attacks when you get called out. Stick to the facts you whiney little brat.

Jim

233 wheel torque at 9psi seems pretty unrealistic to me too. So does holding a completely flat torque curve to 7000, even the square top manifold tapers a little by then. Not mention that it will take more than 3 additional psi to hold that torque to 7000rpm.

Please explain why he was able to make similar horsepower numbers to other Miatas with EFR6258's at way lower boost, and the square top manifold doesn't account for that much difference? Don't compare it to GT2560's the EFR's are different turbos, they are much more efficient at higher pressure ratios and will flow more than the Garrett, that doesn't mean they will make way more power at minimal boost pressure.

Oh my god. :bow: and here I only own a prelude, outright.

I didn't put much money into my miata because it has a 1.6L and it makes 240rwhp so it's the absolute best setup ever. My miata is the benchmark that others try to acheive here at mt.net and the eptiome of the perfect turboed miata: floppy dick chassis and lack of low end.

:party:


You're the reason everyone hates Canadians. I resort to insults because logic doesn't work on you.

When you start sticking to facts, I will go back to it. So far all you've said is a 1.6L is fun at 200rwhp. that is fact I never really disagreed with that. But I've given plenty of reasons why a small investment in a new block is a smart choice over going start to turboing a 1.6L where it's hard start over from when you realize it's a sub-par setup in comparison. Here you are with Jay Leno's garage and god forbid we suggest that it would be wise to start with a better platform for significant performance gains for very little extra investment.

EFR > Garrett Garrett wheels havent changed since like 1970. The GTX wheel is the newest thing they've done in 20 years. EFR setups keep proving this time and time again.

Oooh, careful you might hurt my feelingss....... yeah right

No, the part that makes them make way more power at minimal boost pressure is that the compressor and turbine are GT3071 size.

I never cared about your feelings.

OH U MAD :laugh:

The compressor exd/ind size of the efr6258 is 62mm/49.6mm, the turbine wheel on the EFR is 58mm, according to Borg Warner.

In contrast the 3071 comp wheel exd/ind is 71mm/53.1mm and the turbine wheel is 60mm, considerably larger than the EFR so your argument is inaccurate.

The 2871 is a better comparison to the efr6258 with a slightly larger compressor but smaller turbine compared to the EFR. Looking through the dyno section it seems to take close to 20psi on a 2871 to get past 300whp, hard to compare the two unless comparing identical motors and manifolds but I don't believe the EFR is going to break 300whp at 12psi. This is also backed up by the fact that when he ran his 6258 soviet was at higher boost, again not a direct comparison due to different intake manifolds but the at those power levels I seriously doubt the square top will make the same power at 50% less boost, soviets 18 (iirc) vs 12 for 99mx5.

The extended tip technology and Tial machined wheel combined with efficiency at higher pressure ratios is what allows the efr's to make the power they do. Of course that means running higher boost pressure to make the power and get into the efficiency zone of the compressor map.

Jim

How old are you again?

What the hell are you talking about? I never said either of those two statements...why are you getting so butthurt?
P.S I actually drove an 04 Vette today, it was awesome

I am going to be honest. I am a newb that spent a lot of $$ on 1.6 turbo setup. I regret it after looking at 1.8 dyno's.

Of course any turbo miata is fun but, all else equal, a 1.8 turbo will always feel and drive better compared to the 1.6; there is no replacement for displacement and power is addictive. The administrators know this and really want to help everyone in the right direction, especially Brain.

Now, if anyone must insist on keeping their 1.6, Brain mentioned somewhere in this forum that 1.6 cams from and auto car will help with the low end. But still, don't cheap out like Brain did, if you are already spending a lot of time and money anyways.

Do it once and do it right!

You stupid little twat. You wouldn't know a good thing if you dumped thousands of dollars on it and still was left with something only sub-par in comparison!

What makes you say I cheaped out on my build? I've done everything but build/replace the motor. -1

Comparing the wheel diameter sizes between two different manufacturers is pointless and trivial. Stop comparing EFRs to garrett, because they dont compare, since the EFR6258 has proven to spool like a 2560 but make power more like a 3071. So unless you just want to say they are both turbos, then yeah, that's a good comparison: they are both turbos.

I've seen two 1.8L miatas, in person, hit 300rwhp on a dynojet at 14psi, on a 2560. So seeing a EFR do somethign very similar is not surprising.

Also, 99mx5 hit his peak HP number at closer to 13.7psi, not 12psi, if you look at his datalog from the dyno.

Also Also, I've personally tuned a 1.6L to hit 300hp with less than 20psi on a 2871.

All it takes is a IM, that's the whole point of them. At the same boost level, all the 2560 could make at 14psi was 271rwhp.

If you look at soviet's 17psi 318rwhp pull, you can see his torque drops off significantly at 5.5K. Had a squaretop or alike IM been fitted, I'd except his torque at 7K to be closer to 250rwtq, maybe more, over the 215rwtq he plotted. That would have put his peak HP at 17psi closer to 333rwhp.

This effect has been proven time and time again on the miata (here's a plot of the BEGi/FM IM during intial testing):

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1363784580

a 10% power gain at the same boost level.


IIRC, someone from miata.net maybe fit the first EFR6258 that I can remember seeing back in 2011 and hit ~275rwhp at 12psi with the stock 94 motor, stock IM, a log manifold, a horrible DP, and running the LINK ECU. His previous turbo he replaced, the Schwitzer S100 only made about ~225rwhp at the same boost. :eek:


12psi is 33% less boost than 18psi, since 18 * .5 = 9. 18psi might be 50% more boost than 12psi, since 12 + 6 = 18, but to say it's 50% less boost is purposely deceiving. Plus 99mx5 actually plotted, as mentioned before, closer to 13.7psi according to his datalog of the dyno run. So he actually ran ~24% less boost.

Anyways, these are trivial arguements. Both were done on different dynos with different components/engines/timing maps. Both are in the ballpark of each other. I do have a feeling Ari's numbers might be slightly buffed from the dyno to mimic dynojet numbers, but that's okay with me; so long as he goes back to the same dyno to do more pulls once he fits the EBC, he'll have a good comparison.

But this is all outside the point and doesn't matter. We are all smart enough to know when to question numbers that don't make sense, and you have proven that you don't. It's as simple as that.

tl;dr
So to summarize: the 1.6L is a shitty motor for boost in comparison to a 1.8L.

Unless you own a 1.8L turbo miata and 10 other vehicles, then the 1.6L is great motor and spending $400-600 is not worth the extra investment and it's better to just slap parts on the 1.6L and be stuck with it and enjoy always being second fiddle.

:bowrofl:

This thread makes me sad for being teh dumbbbbb and going 1.6T. And I don't even have all of my parts yet

So after reading this thread I'm convinced 1.6>1.8

Thanks guys

Something like that

I mean you wont die because you turboed your 1.6L, but you might contract AIDs and have to live the rest of your life with treatment.

You're still alive so the treatment is effective.

science has come a long ways since me and freddie were going strong.

Is a 1.8 swap the cure for aids? I think you might be onto something here Brain

I never said you went cheap on your "build", bc everyone knows here you spent a lot of time and money trying to be like the 1.8 guys. But you did cheap out on not starting with a 1.8 like a lot of people. Anyways, I know 230whp/230wtq@4300rmp is a very good accomplishment for a 1.6 turbo.

Anyways, sorry if offended you by calling you a cheap Jew.

lol. I didn't know any better back then, i did have an impassioned admin that wanted to save me from my own misery.

:laugh: I actually knew from the get-go that he meant no offense, but it was so much fun watching you get butthurt about it anyways

i did too, bro, i did too.

I don't think Philip wanted to save anyone from misery.

like when he deleted all posts from pre-2006 or something like that?

The miata community was onto something big, but decided to keep it a secret. Science caught up.

Scientists Report First Cure Of HIV In A Child, Say It's A Game-Changer : Shots - Health News : NPR

I believe the child was functionally cured from HIV, however, there could still be minute amounts of the virus that went undetected. Until further research, the child isn't 100% completely cured but, it does give mankind some hope.

As for MT.net, the only cure for AIDS is a 1.8 turbo.

Brain, are you still running the T3 super 60 and BEGI cast manifold? On a 93 1.6?

Jim

no a 50 trim chinacharger t3 on the same manifold. I'm making 240/240 at around 14psi

This thread is stupid and so are all of you! I'm never coming back to this thread again, ever!

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m6...yd7qo1_500.png

Ok, I have to ask....you complain bitterly about how crappy the 1.6 is but you've run a fairly large 300hp capable turbo that spools poorly on a 1.6 now you're running a slightly smaller churbo which is also a poor choice for spool. Why not run a turbonetics T3 40 or 45 trim if you want to stick with your manifold? either of those would spool significantly better than what your running and should make the same power your running.

You're blaming your motor for not performing to your expectations but you're hampering it with a poor choice in turbo.

Jim

Jim, this post is undeserving of a responce.

Ban hammer strikes again lololol

I was gonna warn him too, but he's a really stubborn old man, and probably wouldn't have listened.

especially after I would have told him my 1.6L performs VERY well for a 1.6L and outspools most others on this site with much smaller turbos, even BB turbos...

C'mon Brain, after 2 pages of talking about how cheap you are, why don't you just buy a $700 turbo? Surely that will solve all your problems.

Better yet why not just get an EFR? Sure it's more than twice the cost of a 1.8L upgrade, but who care about logic?

why a EFR, they are comparable to a GT2871.

Same person that would enjoy a m45+1.6

I do need to buy an auto intake cam one of these days.

Took long enough. Don't think anyone else on the board is more annoying and less helpful