1.6T or 1.8 Swap
 

Hey guys, fairly new to Miatas, my friends are telling me the first thing I should do is put a 1.8 in it...but I don't want to, what's the point if my engine is still running strong and healthy
My thoughts were to boost it, sure it costs more but it would make significantly more power than a 1.8 lol
Anyways, I'm quite unfamiliar with turbos, I read the stickied FAQs and they do help a lot, but still didn't answer my question that is, should I turbo the 1.6, or do a swap and save up for a turbo for a 1.8? Are the turbo kits for a 1.6 and 1.8 fully interchangeable? I would think the turbo manifold would be different but anything else? Sorry for all these noob questions, used the search bar and couldn't really find the answer I was looking for, any suggestions or help is greatly appreciated, thanks

Btw I'm not COMPLETELY retarded, I know that if I chose the boost route, I would need an upgraded clutch, and 1.8 rear end, so please no one waste your breath telling me that hehe

read, read, and read some more. turning a non turbo car into a turbo car is actually quite extensive. It really depends on what you want to do with the car and what you currently use the car for. Go read the I wish I would have thread.

Will do

extensive? The turbo is the easy part... getting stuck with a 1.6L is a shitty reality.

do the 1.8L swap with a good clutch and turbo later. You won't be sorry.

What are your ultimate goals for the car?

A simple low boost turbo setup on a 1.6 can make good power and is really quite straight forward to do. the 1.6 already has an oil feed on the exhaust side of the block for the turbo an fm or begi log manifold and downpipe are simple and straight forward to install and with a smaller turbo will give decent boost response and spool decently.

decide what you want first then figure out the way to get there that works best for you.

Jim

I am going to absolutely go nuts on the next n00b moron that legitimately makes these two statements:

1) I have done my research
2) which is better to do, 1.6 or 1.8

Seriously. This deserves a ban.

Btw, how would you rate your mechanical skills? you mentioned being unfamiliar with turbos but didn't really indicate your skill/knowledge level in general.

Jim

A simple low boost turbo setup on a 1.8L car can make great power and is really quite straight forward to do. the early 1.8L blocks already have a oil feed on the exhaust side of the block for the turbo, an fm or begi log manifold and downpipe are simple and straight forward to install and with a smaller turbo, give incredible boost response and spool exceptionally well.

decide whether you want to be stuck with good parts on an inferior, pos engine or not, then figure out the way to get there that works best for you.

Brain

Brain, valid points , however the op has to factor in the additional cost of doing the 1.8 swap. if a boosted 1.6 will give him what he needs why bother wither extra cost and work?

Personally I would keep the 1.6 and a gt2554, but I know from 35 years of experience that at this point in my life I would be very happy with that. obviously for a lot of you the 1.8 swap is the right answer, but it's not the right answer for everyone. 15-20 years ago I would probably be saying do the swap, but my goals were a lot different 20 years ago.

btw, what makes the 1.6 a "pos"? They came with turbos from the factory and their are lots of high mileage untouched 1.6s around. and yes I am aware of the short nose crank issues but I don't necessarily consider that a fatal flaw.
Jim

the 1.6L sucks in every way, even with a tiny turbo, it cant spool nearly as well or provide a quarter of the torque a 1.8L can provide.

it might take longer for initial boosting, but in the long-run it will be the better decision. Just having a 1.8L block opens up so many more possibities for upgrades and improvements down the road...different heads, IMs, VVT, etc.

rofl

A quarter of the torque? Are you sure you're not exaggerating just a little....

again valid points, but again all those options cost money and just because the 1.8 provides more upgrade options doesn't mean it's the only solution.

its not difficult to get a reliable 180-200hp out of a 1.6 and if the op would be happy with that why go to the trouble and expense to have options he may never use? of course the op may want those options and may want to swap to a 1.8, but he needs to decide what his goals are before making that decision.

Jim

200hp on a 1.6L is nice. 200hp on a 1.8L is better.

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1363706554

this is Shuiend's SR20 T25 on BEGi parts at 10psi with his 1.8L vs. Curly's 1.6L with the same turbo, running 12psi and similar components. the 1.8L will make 50 more rwtq through the majority of the low-end power band. This will feel absolutely night and day amaze-balls on the street in comparison.

But bro, WHAT ABOUT THE COST?
I mean we drive supercars with exotic unobtanium engines that cost $100,000 to swap in. This isn't exactly cheap.

lol but seriously: the level of stinginess/cheapness of some folks on here absolutely amazes me. and I consider myself stingy

Brain, I totally agree that the 1.8 is capable of more than the 1.6, I never disagreed with you.

Unlike you I am saying their is excellent potential in the 1.6, as long as it's limits are respected and the buillder will be satisfied with it's capabability, the 1.6 is a valid option to consider, there is a considerable extra expense in doing a 1.8 swap, just the engine alone is $500-$1000 (at least around here they are), it's not difficult but it costs money. If the OP doesn't need the the extra power the 1.8 offers and isn't going to buy a vvt head or use a vtcs or squaretop manifold why bother with the time effort and cost?

Jim

It's not my opinion; it's fact.

turboing a 1.6L will make you limp

lol he is your cryptonite

It's not necessarily about being cheap, I'm 48 years old and I know what I want out of my car. My Miata is a relatively mild 1.8, I could have spent more money and gotten a lot more power, I know I will be happy with roughly 250whp and took the money that I would have spent on more power and did brake and suspension work, believe me my Miata hasn't been cheap, but I wanted a quick, reliable, fun street car, not a track car, so my priorities were obviously different from someone building a track car. It's not always about spending more or spending less but about spending on what you want. If what you want is a built 1.8 with a big turbo, go for it. If what you want is a nice quick street Miata that'll be fun to drive why spend money on things you don't need?

I would love to pick up a pre obdII Miata (either a 1.6 or a 1.8 doesn't matter) and either put a JRSC M45 ( I know sacrilege..) or a small turbo on it and use it as a autoX car, it would be cheap, fun and reliable, not super fast but fun and reliable.

Jim

No Brain it is your opinion, the fact is that some people enjoy their 1.6's. So it's not for you, that's cool, run a 1.8 that's your prerogative, but don't pretend like it's the only option, it's not.

NitroDann's 1.6 puts out pretty impressive top end and mid range if I recal correctly...

Jim

That's what I've done with my 1.6L. I pray each night that a 1.8L falls from the sky and kills me in my sleep.

I'll probably agree with you when I'm that old.

We'll see

*edit: on the other hand: swapping in a vvt long block would achieve the same exact thing your 1.6+m45 would do, but be cheaper, more reliable, and just better all around.

So yeah. Fail

I dont even want a built 1.8L. I want a stock 94-95 block with the same turbo setup I have on it.

this is what I should have done when I bought my 91 after wrecking the 93, and I hate myself for not doing it cause god forbid I would of had to buy a new exhaust manifold.

Just out of curiosity, what's stopping you from doing it? You're obviously very passionate on the subject so why not do the swap yourself? I am legitimately asking, not being a smart ass, there must be some reason you haven't done it yourself.

Jim

So being cheap to the point of retardation, might sometimes be less beneficial in the long run?


WHOWOULDATHUNKKKKKK!!!!!

:D

Nothing.

Well not really. More like laziness.

Except I have a JRSC M45 kit with a high boost pulley, DDM works cold air box, injectors and an XEDE sitting in my garage so it wouldn't cost me anything....can't bring myself to sell to it so I keep thinking I should put it to use. For what it's worth my bone stock '01 VVT engine dyno'd 108.5 hp on a dyno dynamics dyno. The M45, even on a 1.6 would hopefully be a little better...hopefully

Jim

Since you aren't going to get a reliable turbo kit and everything for less than $3k (actually plus a 1.8 diff so more like 3.5k), an extra $500-1000 for a 1.8 swap isn't that outrageous. Hell you can probably save a chunk of change by buying your 1.8 diff and engine at the same time.

OP, for 1/6th the price of your total cost to turbo your 1.6, you can get a 1.8 that will be 6/1ths better. $3.5k for a decent 1.6 setup vs $4k for a decent 1.8 setup. It shouldn't even be a question.

I'm pretty sure the 949 track rental made more like 150whp bone stock (with standalone EMS and tuning).

I should have added: "with the super simple and basic bolt ons" to that, which would result in more like 140whp, maybe more depending on a couple things. With the setup you just listed, you'd probably be maybe 10hp above that. Maybe.

;)

I looked at a few 94-95 cars, but chriscar bought the one I wanted out from under my nose :)

It was mainly due to impaitence, the miata marketplace here being way overpriced, and thinking I'd have to redo a whole bunch of work...but that really wouldn't have been the case, everything would have still swapped over, i would have just needed a new exhaust manifold.

We typically advise based on our experience. We are what like 1% of the miata community? How many of the people that come on here and ask these questions actually execute their post?

ECU & Wideband. If you're still sticking with cars and not off doing something else in 6 months or so come back and ask the questions again really.

You can get a BEGI-S system for the 1.6 for $2200, considering the early 1.8 is nothing more than than a 1.6 with increased bore spacing how is it so vastly superior? Sure the later 1.8's had better heads and intake manifolds but they will also be more expensive to buy used. The only real advantage to the 1.8 over the 1.6 is 200cc of displacement, is 200cc really that much better?

Jim

yes it is. did I not prove that with the dyno I attached?

same turbo, same ECU, same exhaust, similar turbo manifold, yet the 1.8L makes 50 more rwtq throughout the powerband below 5K with 2 psi less boost.

It's hard to make a 1.6L spool well, and when it does, it can't even output any tq to matter.

I love my 1.6, but i will be swapping it our for a 1.8 down the road. It's all about what you want out of the car. where's the love bros

200cc of displacement is a significant increase in displacement.
There is no replacement for displacement.

:party:

It's actually ~240cc, which is a ~15% bump in displacement.

By the time you purchase a quality manifold, a downpipe, a turbo, a full exhaust, good oil and water lines, an intercooler setup, injectors, a fuel pump, a standalone ECU, a wideband, a clutch, and Toyota/LS coils, you're going to be into the car for $3k if you're good at finding deals or $8k if you are fine with paying retail to get known good parts from a vendor that's done all the research for you already. The extra $600 to swap a 1.8 into the car is no longer a significant amount of money in the big picture, and it's important to get a 1.8 block and build around that, because two of the most expensive parts of the build (the manifold and the downpipe) are 1.6/1.8-specific parts.

There are so many people here who have turbo 1.6s who regret not doing the build on a 1.8. The 1.8s make significantly more low-end torque, they spool bigger turbos faster, and they make more top-end power.

that.

/thread

plus they dont have a limp donkey dick v-notch crank/alternator pulley.

the love is gone. This is no longer MT, it's now become the Torque Wasteland :vash2:

I know that even after I'm done making double the power most people make, I'll still get ragged on because it could have been "that" much better with a 1.8. And I'll take it like a bitch because I know I can't fault them (even though I need the traction over low end).

The only way I can redeem myself is the hope of companies producing T3 EFR housings :party: even then I'll probably just run my junkyard turbos, lol

Sav, I don't disagree with what you've said but you're list of parts and comments apply to a high horsepower build. and for a high end build I completely agree.

what I've been saying is that if a mild build will satisfy, the costs to turbo are considerably less, and the relative cost of a 1.8 swap is higher.

YOU KEEP SAYING THIS FOR THE PAST 5 YEARS!!!


DO IT

Until its done and you're flexing on fools, wouldn't you say you're a hypocrite?

Seriously, I love you 1.6 broz but put up or shut up.

<3


*edit: and don't you dare post up jasons plot or something gay like that. I wanna see YOURS

I've spent the last 6 years trying to make my 1.6L as good as the worse 1.8L setup.

example: my 1.6L running 13psi, vs. a similar 1.8L setup running 7psi:

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1363714208

that low-end makes significant difference in how well it drives on the street.

or a few years later when I installed a smaller turbo for more low end, still at 13psi, and compared to a 1.8L running a t25 at only 9psi that same day:

http://boostedmiata.com/gallery2/d/1..._Lars_dyno.jpg

that's disheartening for sure, especially after driving both back to back.





we are talking $300-600 on a used block before fitting parts. That's trivial in the scheme of things.

I dont think you understand at all actually.

Even a "mild" build is 2500+

I think what you're confusing us all with is your definition of "mild" build being a hacked together POS setup that produces 200whp at best, vs the rest of us thinking of healthy 250whp fun setups that last.

I think.......

I'm just talking about tossing in a unmolested 1.8L block...I never once mentioned touching the internals.

I touched your internals last night

Whoa, whoa, calm down brochacho. These things take time and I had to learn the ropes. Big power budget ballin' is an art.

Remember that you have a lot more experience than most, old man!

Edit: ARtech parts are almost here :fael:

Some specifics then, look at fluffy pillows dyno in the dyno section. on an fm manifold and sr20 turbo with ms2 and mediocre exhaust he made 125lb/ft@2500, 150lb/ft@3000 and 200lb/ft from 4000rpm, that's my idea of a budget build, manifold and downpipe are $750 (current price), ms2 is what, 750 or less? and a I would assume the sr20 turbo was used. how is that a bad or hacked together build? nice power from 4000-7000 rpm, 125-150lb/ft available from 2500-4000, sounds like a pretty nice street car to me and pretty darn cheap for the performance.

add a cheap ebay intercooler and wideband for another $500-800


Jim

you've been building/rebuilding your setup for like 5 years now.

you noticed all the skeptisim on his numbers right?

there was no way he's making 215hp on that turbo with that amount of boost. 60% DC on 460cc injectors is closer to 150rwhp dynojet. it takes me ~90% DC on 460cc injectors to make ~230rwhp dynojet.

making 150rwtq (dynojet) by 3000RPM is a great benchmark for the absolute bare minimum you want out of your setup; good luck*.




*hint, this is child's play for a 1.8L, it's not for a 1.6L.

And you've been complaining about your 1.6 for even longer :party: Just get a 1.8 you cheap jew

But seriously, I have been. ebay kit-fm3-2554, sr20 t25, 2870-etd-holset. It's progression and getting better all the time. Until then, I will talk mad shit because I'm cool like that :giggle:

I barely have the motivation to figure the logistics in getting the miata parked back over at my house...

:bowrofl: First world problems

OP, you're over thinking this. No one frowns in a turbo miata. It's physically impossible. If you can't source a 1.8 locally or can't afford the shipping of a long block, etc..you won't be "sad" with a turbo 1.6, especially if you're going to stay within stock motor power limits. I had so much damn fun with my 2554 that is was sickening.

Saturday bro. We will make it happen.

lol, great reply

On the other hand, for ~$600 there is no performance upgrade that comes anywhere near the price/performance of a 1.8 upgrade.

If you are going to shell out $4000+ for a turbo setup, it would be silly to not spend another $600 for a 1.8.

it was only great because it supports your narrow mindset! he's like the msnbc to your liberal agenda.

My red-state brethren.

No, they don't. The list of parts for a high-horsepower build is twice as long. My list is a 200-220whp setup.

So much blue state and red state posts I see purple

all that matters is that savington and I agree. when that happens, a unicorns gets its horn.