1996 1.8 Pinging when hot at full boost
I've got my engine back together after getting the head rebuilt, new head gasket, AFPR rebuilt by Corky, coolant reroute, steel turbo oil drain line, newly rebuilt injectors, and new master clutch cylinder.
I've adjusted the on-set on the AFPR to get rid of the pinging that was occurring at 4inches vacuum ~ 4lbs of boost, but nothing will get rid of the pinging going up to 6+lbs (I've got the additional fuel pump) at 3/4 - WOT. This is the old (now ancient) FMI setup w/ a T28, Intercooler, AFPR, and MSD Ignition retard. Here is what I'm working around: 1.) Car pulls great when cool - no pinging at any level of throttle / boost. 2.) Once warm, pinging is horrible at 3/4-WOT past 4krpm @ ~6+ lbs. I've closed the check valve on the AFPR, but the extra fuel pressure doesn't seem to be doing anything. 3.) The vacuum/boost lines appear to be good - all the additional ones are coming off a port inline w/ the brake booster line - getting good readings w/ the boost gauge. Possible causes (looking for input here) 1.) Possible 9 year old MSD ignition retard is no longer functioning? How would I test to see if this is still working (or should I just say screw MSD - go Bipes?) 2.) Oxygen sensors are operating outside of normal range and not getting the injector pulses wide enough and causing a lean condition near WOT (though it should be at open loop at this point, shouldn't it?). I've got a scan tool coming in on Thursday that can get real-time data streams. Really looking to get this car running w/o ping for the 8th of May for a track day at Harris Hill... don't want to worry about keeping the pedal off the floor :-) |
Get colder plugs.
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Originally Posted by hovermike
(Post 563739)
1.) Possible 9 year old MSD ignition retard is no longer functioning? How would I test to see if this is still working (or should I just say screw MSD - go Bipes?
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Thanks for the tips - have some BKR7Es on the way. Looking forward to the difference.
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Why don't I see anything about the WBo2 readings?
--Alex |
What are the current plugs gapped at?
OEM HG? |
What are your afr's? I'm assuming you do have a WB. Also, sell all that bandaid bs and get a real ecu.
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Ok, everything is stock as far as ECU, o2 / etc. Here's the OBDII data I've scanned off today. It looks like the MAF is not seeing the air as it should and therefore the injectors are getting too small injection pulses Here's the data. I initially accelerated from 0-65 (see load in the ~70% area. I didn't give it WOT due to pinging concerns - and man was it pinging...) The o2 sensor is going back and forth as it should... but the MAF sensor occasionally shows a very small load even though the load is high... (like 72.9% load, and 1.067 lb/min? Malfunctioning BOV?)...
Live Data LOAD_PCT(%) 18.4 ETC(°F) 199 RPM(/min) 915 SPARKADV(°) 8 IAT(°F) 136 MAF(lb/min) 0.382 O2B1S1(V) 0.065 ------------------ LOAD_PCT(%) 16.9 ETC(°F) 198 RPM(/min) 926 SPARKADV(°) 8 IAT(°F) 136 MAF(lb/min) 0.370 O2B1S1(V) 0.765 ------------------ LOAD_PCT(%) 16.9 ETC(°F) 198 RPM(/min) 910 SPARKADV(°) 8 IAT(°F) 136 MAF(lb/min) 0.385 O2B1S1(V) 0.075 ------------------ LOAD_PCT(%) 17.6 ETC(°F) 198 RPM(/min) 890 SPARKADV(°) 8 IAT(°F) 136 MAF(lb/min) 0.380 O2B1S1(V) 0.105 ------------------ LOAD_PCT(%) 17.3 ETC(°F) 198 RPM(/min) 890 SPARKADV(°) 8 IAT(°F) 136 MAF(lb/min) 0.372 O2B1S1(V) 0.160 ------------------ LOAD_PCT(%) 18.0 ETC(°F) 198 RPM(/min) 889 SPARKADV(°) 7 IAT(°F) 138 MAF(lb/min) 1.509 O2B1S1(V) 0.110 ------------------ LOAD_PCT(%) 45.1 ETC(°F) 198 RPM(/min) 1844 SPARKADV(°) 29 IAT(°F) 138 MAF(lb/min) 1.993 O2B1S1(V) 0.205 ------------------ LOAD_PCT(%) 20.8 ETC(°F) 199 RPM(/min) 2630 SPARKADV(°) 35 IAT(°F) 138 MAF(lb/min) 1.623 O2B1S1(V) 0.095 ------------------ LOAD_PCT(%) 31.4 ETC(°F) 199 RPM(/min) 2710 SPARKADV(°) 36 IAT(°F) 136 MAF(lb/min) 0.599 O2B1S1(V) 0.015 ------------------ LOAD_PCT(%) 43.9 ETC(°F) 199 RPM(/min) 1831 SPARKADV(°) 26 IAT(°F) 136 MAF(lb/min) 3.070 O2B1S1(V) 0.900 ------------------ LOAD_PCT(%) 63.9 ETC(°F) 199 RPM(/min) 4128 SPARKADV(°) 38 IAT(°F) 135 MAF(lb/min) 4.607 O2B1S1(V) 0.910 ------------------ LOAD_PCT(%) 61.2 ETC(°F) 201 RPM(/min) 3565 SPARKADV(°) 27 IAT(°F) 133 MAF(lb/min) 4.041 O2B1S1(V) 0.110 ------------------ LOAD_PCT(%) 55.7 ETC(°F) 201 RPM(/min) 2832 SPARKADV(°) 28 IAT(°F) 131 MAF(lb/min) 2.287 O2B1S1(V) 0.810 ------------------ LOAD_PCT(%) 28.2 ETC(°F) 203 RPM(/min) 2856 SPARKADV(°) 36 IAT(°F) 131 MAF(lb/min) 1.993 O2B1S1(V) 0.840 ------------------ LOAD_PCT(%) 31.8 ETC(°F) 203 RPM(/min) 2838 SPARKADV(°) 36 IAT(°F) 129 MAF(lb/min) 2.201 O2B1S1(V) 0.780 ------------------ LOAD_PCT(%) 19.6 ETC(°F) 205 RPM(/min) 2712 SPARKADV(°) 34 IAT(°F) 127 MAF(lb/min) 1.230 O2B1S1(V) 0.085 ------------------ LOAD_PCT(%) 18.0 ETC(°F) 205 RPM(/min) 2723 SPARKADV(°) 32 IAT(°F) 127 MAF(lb/min) 0.947 O2B1S1(V) 0.775 ------------------ LOAD_PCT(%) 9.4 ETC(°F) 205 RPM(/min) 2606 SPARKADV(°) 28 IAT(°F) 127 MAF(lb/min) 0.602 O2B1S1(V) 0.000 ------------------ LOAD_PCT(%) 12.2 ETC(°F) 205 RPM(/min) 1774 SPARKADV(°) 25 IAT(°F) 127 MAF(lb/min) 0.564 O2B1S1(V) 0.845 ------------------ LOAD_PCT(%) 19.6 ETC(°F) 207 RPM(/min) 1413 SPARKADV(°) 21 IAT(°F) 126 MAF(lb/min) 5.926 O2B1S1(V) 0.755 ------------------ LOAD_PCT(%) 71.4 ETC(°F) 207 RPM(/min) 5008 SPARKADV(°) 23 IAT(°F) 127 MAF(lb/min) 1.368 O2B1S1(V) 0.420 ------------------ LOAD_PCT(%) 78.0 ETC(°F) 207 RPM(/min) 5161 SPARKADV(°) 24 IAT(°F) 127 MAF(lb/min) 1.019 O2B1S1(V) 0.055 ------------------ LOAD_PCT(%) 72.9 ETC(°F) 207 RPM(/min) 4384 SPARKADV(°) 23 IAT(°F) 126 MAF(lb/min) 5.443 O2B1S1(V) 0.915 ------------------ LOAD_PCT(%) 72.2 ETC(°F) 207 RPM(/min) 3583 SPARKADV(°) 21 IAT(°F) 124 MAF(lb/min) 7.841 O2B1S1(V) 0.810 ------------------ LOAD_PCT(%) 72.2 ETC(°F) 208 RPM(/min) 3809 SPARKADV(°) 21 IAT(°F) 122 MAF(lb/min) 8.238 O2B1S1(V) 0.840 ------------------ LOAD_PCT(%) 27.5 ETC(°F) 208 RPM(/min) 3073 SPARKADV(°) 18 IAT(°F) 122 MAF(lb/min) 6.656 O2B1S1(V) 0.215 ------------------ LOAD_PCT(%) 47.1 ETC(°F) 208 RPM(/min) 3081 SPARKADV(°) 36 IAT(°F) 120 MAF(lb/min) 1.821 O2B1S1(V) 0.860 ------------------ LOAD_PCT(%) 30.2 ETC(°F) 210 RPM(/min) 2868 SPARKADV(°) 36 IAT(°F) 118 MAF(lb/min) 2.680 O2B1S1(V) 0.890 ------------------ LOAD_PCT(%) 19.6 ETC(°F) 212 RPM(/min) 2610 SPARKADV(°) 32 IAT(°F) 118 MAF(lb/min) 0.632 O2B1S1(V) 0.055 ------------------ LOAD_PCT(%) 10.6 ETC(°F) 212 RPM(/min) 2248 SPARKADV(°) 28 IAT(°F) 118 MAF(lb/min) 0.602 O2B1S1(V) 0.000 ------------------ LOAD_PCT(%) 13.3 ETC(°F) 212 RPM(/min) 1497 SPARKADV(°) 13 IAT(°F) 118 MAF(lb/min) 0.509 O2B1S1(V) 0.020 ------------------ LOAD_PCT(%) 18.8 ETC(°F) 212 RPM(/min) 1061 SPARKADV(°) 8 IAT(°F) 118 MAF(lb/min) 0.476 O2B1S1(V) 0.090 ------------------ LOAD_PCT(%) 19.6 ETC(°F) 212 RPM(/min) 885 SPARKADV(°) 8 IAT(°F) 118 MAF(lb/min) 0.639 O2B1S1(V) 0.855 ------------------ LOAD_PCT(%) 69.0 ETC(°F) 212 RPM(/min) 1705 SPARKADV(°) 18 IAT(°F) 118 MAF(lb/min) 3.557 O2B1S1(V) 0.335 ------------------ LOAD_PCT(%) 14.1 ETC(°F) 212 RPM(/min) 2303 SPARKADV(°) 13 IAT(°F) 120 MAF(lb/min) 5.640 O2B1S1(V) 0.175 ------------------ LOAD_PCT(%) 72.9 ETC(°F) 212 RPM(/min) 5181 SPARKADV(°) 41 IAT(°F) 122 MAF(lb/min) 8.586 O2B1S1(V) 0.870 ------------------ LOAD_PCT(%) 9.8 ETC(°F) 212 RPM(/min) 3276 SPARKADV(°) 20 IAT(°F) 122 MAF(lb/min) 9.651 O2B1S1(V) 0.090 ------------------ LOAD_PCT(%) 8.6 ETC(°F) 212 RPM(/min) 2967 SPARKADV(°) 24 IAT(°F) 122 MAF(lb/min) 5.127 O2B1S1(V) 0.805 ------------------ LOAD_PCT(%) 42.7 ETC(°F) 212 RPM(/min) 3343 SPARKADV(°) 37 IAT(°F) 120 MAF(lb/min) 0.963 O2B1S1(V) 0.830 ------------------ LOAD_PCT(%) 16.1 ETC(°F) 212 RPM(/min) 3362 SPARKADV(°) 38 IAT(°F) 118 MAF(lb/min) 1.077 O2B1S1(V) 0.060 ------------------ LOAD_PCT(%) 7.8 ETC(°F) 212 RPM(/min) 3325 SPARKADV(°) 28 IAT(°F) 118 MAF(lb/min) 0.656 O2B1S1(V) 0.025 ------------------ LOAD_PCT(%) 16.9 ETC(°F) 212 RPM(/min) 3343 SPARKADV(°) 39 IAT(°F) 118 MAF(lb/min) 1.947 O2B1S1(V) 0.085 ------------------ LOAD_PCT(%) 23.5 ETC(°F) 212 RPM(/min) 3404 SPARKADV(°) 40 IAT(°F) 118 MAF(lb/min) 1.799 O2B1S1(V) 0.080 ------------------ LOAD_PCT(%) 49.4 ETC(°F) 212 RPM(/min) 3553 SPARKADV(°) 20 IAT(°F) 117 MAF(lb/min) 9.372 O2B1S1(V) 0.280 ------------------ LOAD_PCT(%) 47.1 ETC(°F) 210 RPM(/min) 3837 SPARKADV(°) 40 IAT(°F) 115 MAF(lb/min) 1.086 O2B1S1(V) 0.250 ------------------ LOAD_PCT(%) 72.9 ETC(°F) 208 RPM(/min) 4017 SPARKADV(°) 21 IAT(°F) 113 MAF(lb/min) 1.067 O2B1S1(V) 0.055 ------------------ LOAD_PCT(%) 8.2 ETC(°F) 208 RPM(/min) 3736 SPARKADV(°) 28 IAT(°F) 113 MAF(lb/min) 0.772 O2B1S1(V) 0.000 ------------------ LOAD_PCT(%) 8.2 ETC(°F) 208 RPM(/min) 3384 SPARKADV(°) 28 IAT(°F) 113 MAF(lb/min) 0.743 O2B1S1(V) 0.000 ------------------ LOAD_PCT(%) 9.8 ETC(°F) 208 RPM(/min) 3078 SPARKADV(°) 28 IAT(°F) 113 MAF(lb/min) 0.791 O2B1S1(V) 0.000 ------------------ LOAD_PCT(%) 10.6 ETC(°F) 207 RPM(/min) 2777 SPARKADV(°) 32 IAT(°F) 113 MAF(lb/min) 1.786 O2B1S1(V) 0.870 ------------------ LOAD_PCT(%) 9.4 ETC(°F) 207 RPM(/min) 2516 SPARKADV(°) 28 IAT(°F) 113 MAF(lb/min) 0.635 O2B1S1(V) 0.000 ------------------ LOAD_PCT(%) 10.2 ETC(°F) 205 RPM(/min) 2176 SPARKADV(°) 28 IAT(°F) 113 MAF(lb/min) 0.564 O2B1S1(V) 0.000 ------------------ LOAD_PCT(%) 17.3 ETC(°F) 205 RPM(/min) 1181 SPARKADV(°) 11 IAT(°F) 113 MAF(lb/min) 0.485 O2B1S1(V) 0.825 ------------------ LOAD_PCT(%) 20.0 ETC(°F) 205 RPM(/min) 1046 SPARKADV(°) 10 IAT(°F) 113 MAF(lb/min) 0.481 O2B1S1(V) 0.180 ------------------ LOAD_PCT(%) 72.2 ETC(°F) 203 RPM(/min) 4062 SPARKADV(°) 22 IAT(°F) 113 MAF(lb/min) 6.802 O2B1S1(V) 0.865 ------------------ LOAD_PCT(%) 74.1 ETC(°F) 203 RPM(/min) 3572 SPARKADV(°) 28 IAT(°F) 115 MAF(lb/min) 4.254 O2B1S1(V) 0.780 ------------------ LOAD_PCT(%) 40.4 ETC(°F) 203 RPM(/min) 4044 SPARKADV(°) 32 IAT(°F) 115 MAF(lb/min) 3.911 O2B1S1(V) 0.825 ------------------ LOAD_PCT(%) 52.2 ETC(°F) 203 RPM(/min) 4285 SPARKADV(°) 39 IAT(°F) 115 MAF(lb/min) 4.974 O2B1S1(V) 0.920 ------------------ LOAD_PCT(%) 36.9 ETC(°F) 203 RPM(/min) 3535 SPARKADV(°) 41 IAT(°F) 117 MAF(lb/min) 2.098 O2B1S1(V) 0.090 ------------------ LOAD_PCT(%) 36.5 ETC(°F) 203 RPM(/min) 3566 SPARKADV(°) 30 IAT(°F) 117 MAF(lb/min) 3.836 O2B1S1(V) 0.835 ------------------ |
A stock o2 sensor is worthless, or did you read that ^^^^ info that people who are trying to help you were giving you.
Are you running an o2 clamp device or not? This is a very important question to answer before continuing. Are you running stock injectors or have you upgraded? |
There's no wideband o2 sensors (as such, the A/F readings are the o2 sensor readings between 0 and 0.9 volts (0.9 volts being rich, 0.45 being stoich)). The plugs are gapped at the stock settings for the 7's, which I believe is .035. This was originally an FMI kit that didn't ping (this badly) and I'm trying to stay stock... I'm looking for an easy answer, if there's not one, that's fine. If everyone here has gone to non-stock, then I'll go that route when there are more funds available.
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Originally Posted by hovermike
(Post 566860)
There's no wideband o2 sensors (as such, the A/F readings are the o2 sensor readings between 0 and 0.9 volts (0.9 volts being rich, 0.45 being stoich)). The plugs are gapped at the stock settings for the 7's, which I believe is .035. This was originally an FMI kit that didn't ping (this badly) and I'm trying to stay stock... I'm looking for an easy answer, if there's not one, that's fine. If everyone here has gone to non-stock, then I'll go that route when there are more funds available.
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O2 clamp looks like the way to go - but does it have to sit next to the ECU and have a vacuum line run through the firewall? Ideally, I'd like to have this all sitting inside the engine bay...
As for timing, I haven't gotten my hands on a timing light yet. The MSD is set for 6 degrees of retard at >4psi... Would taking 6 degrees off the ECU's 21 degrees of advance be enough? I'm just having a hard time understanding why a stock FMI setup from 2001 (yes, it's very old, but I've been replacing/rebuilding parts like crazy since the head gasket job) wouldn't be able to keep this car from pinging under boost. I've got a max of 6psi, so this shouldn't be difficult to get working w/o having to go the whole non-streetable route (don't want to have to find a person that sells state inspection stickers for 5x cost). |
Originally Posted by hovermike
(Post 566988)
O2 clamp looks like the way to go - but does it have to sit next to the ECU and have a vacuum line run through the firewall? Ideally, I'd like to have this all sitting inside the engine bay...
As for timing, I haven't gotten my hands on a timing light yet. The MSD is set for 6 degrees of retard at >4psi... Would taking 6 degrees off the ECU's 21 degrees of advance be enough? I'm just having a hard time understanding why a stock FMI setup from 2001 (yes, it's very old, but I've been replacing/rebuilding parts like crazy since the head gasket job) wouldn't be able to keep this car from pinging under boost. I've got a max of 6psi, so this shouldn't be difficult to get working w/o having to go the whole non-streetable route (don't want to have to find a person that sells state inspection stickers for 5x cost). And narrow band O2 readings are completely 100% useless. Please don't ever rely on them. If you can't afford a wideband, find someone doing a cheap dyno and take your car there. You'll get a full print out of your AFR. |
How can you assume it's timing related without knowing what your afr's are? For all we know you could be lean as hell.
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Your fuel pump could be shot or fuel filter clogged preventing enough fuel from getting through. Can you tell if it's down on power?
For $180 or so, an LC1 is really the next logical step to troubleshooting. You'll need a bung welded onto your exhaust... pre-cat if possible. I'd also highly recommend a fuel pressure gauge... cheap way to diagnose pump or filter. A new filter is only about $15... good piece of mind in a boosted car to change it every time you do the timing belt. |
There are several places in town that will dyno a car at $30 for three pulls, but that will be a big waste of time without already knowing what your true timing and fueling looks like.
Basic tools you will need to own a turbo car with bandaids: $35 timing light http://www.jegs.com/i/Equus/390/3551/10002/-1 I think Oreillys has one for $40 in Austin. $209 Innovate LC-1 Wideband from DIY Autotune.http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/i...796-p-152.html Basic device that is required when running bandaids (it is one of the bandaids): Olderguy O2 Clamp Since you said it had not been right since the head gasket change: 1) Your ignition timing may be off. You need a timing light. 2) Your cam timing might be off, either one or both cams may be off a tooth. 3) You said the head was rebuilt. Did they deck it or true it? You may be at higher compression ratio now. 4) Are you using a Mazda head gasket or some other brand? There were year model differences in the way the coolant flow was designed to circulate. There are differences in thickness as well which will affect compression ratio. 5) Is the thermostat installed with the little bleed hole at the top or not? You may have air in your head and this may compromise cooling enough to cause detonation without showing much temp rise on the gauge. There are more variables than this, but that is a start. If you want to DIY, you need to have the basic diagnostic tools and understand how these things interact. Otherwise you might do better to spend some money with a shop to have it done for you. It will either cost you effort in reading and learning or money. But it will cost you one or the other. It will not be free. Why did your head gasket fail originally? Did it overheat? |
that and are you running 93 octane or 87?
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Well, to be honest, it did ping before the rebuild (may have very well led to the need for the head gasket as it was my wife's daily driver and she wasn't one to watch the temp gauge). At the last dyno run where I was using A/F ratios, it was running lean. Corky Bell himself was looking at the fuel pressure and noted that the pressure was fine and that I might need to go to bigger injectors. This was at 8lbs, so the stockers should be fine @ 6 (I have installed rebuilt injectors since the rebuild). The odd part was that a dyno run a couple months later showed no pinging and RWHP at 187 (20 higher than the lean day). A shop had installed the check valve on the AFPR backwards at some other point that could have been very well locking up the injectors.
The head had .015 shaved - Corky helped out with the combustion chamber volume (when the AFPR was getting rebuilt) and it was a negligible change. There is absolutely no carbon in the combustion chamber, I had everything as clean as an operating room before putting the head back on w/ a Felpro gasket (9717PT). The head had a full job, and I also installed the coolant reroute (and yes, the thermostat is installed correctly). The cam / crank timing was all dead nuts on when we put the timing belt on - the car runs beautifully below 2lbs. I'll have to get the timing light in case the head rebuild guy replaced the CAS seal and inadvertently advanced the timing.... it does feel like it's pulling better at low rpms... Everything is as it should be, 93 octane gas since we got the car from my friend who had the turbo installed (2001 initial install, 2004 when we bought the car). I was just hoping someone had a similar experience and would be able to say 'Aha!...' I agree about cost no matter what. I've had bad luck with respectable shops who are too busy to accurately diagnose an issue and fixed several issues that they had created while I was replacing the head gasket, so this will be DIY. Ending up with even more tools isn't a bad thing... and the timing light will be here Wed... |
Problem solved.
Check valve on AFPR was sticky preventing boost from getting out which caused fuel pressure to go 110+psi - locking the injectors. Need to get a restrictor on the signal line as well... |
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