22PSI, 260WHP/246WTQ, WTF?
 

I'm finally breaking down and creating a thread because I feel I need some outside help. I believe I've exhausted every option I can think of.

Long story short, I've using a home built EVO3 16G stuffed into a MSM turbine housing that I machined myself with a built motor, and I think it's down on power. Very similar to BNR, but more DIY.

Here's the link to the turbo fabrication.

How to build your own "bolt on" 16G

Never posted a thread about it here because it included MSM "fail parts"

Specs I believe are mostly in sig.

Forged rods / 8.8 Wisecos
"Cleaned up" head, runners, short side, bowl, etc
ARP yada yada
All 2.25 charge pipes/ebay intercooler
ARTech 3" from turbine to tip
FM Level 2 clutch
Rev MS2e w/ FIC650s
Roughly 165psi compression across all cylinders
Stock MSM ignition no blowout at all
BK7REs gapped to .35
Water injection 100psi pump, 220ml/min triggers @ 15psi
91 Octane fuel

With the setup, I'm only getting about 260whp/246wtq via Virtual Dyno. I'm pretty sure this is fairly accurate. Last year I did around 200whp/200wtq @ 15psi on Virtual Dyno and was verified with almost identical numbers from a DynoJet.

Now the car hauls ass, but I still feel like something isn't right. Numbers aside; the car has relatively new RS3s on 15x8 6ULs. If the tires are say warmer than 70f, in a straight line, I can not break them loose during WOT acceleration at all, first, second, etc. When I shift hard into second, yes it'll break'em loose for a second or two, but will catch. If the tires are cold, I can break them loose in first for sure, and sometimes second WOT pull.

So that gives you an idea of some numbers and real life traction scenarios for the given power made.

Here are some pictures of a 3rd gear pull. 4th gear pulls are hard to acquire in San Diego. I've lost my license before and it was worse than the fines.

22psi by 5000 in 3rd. Will do it by about 4500 in 4th gear.

Virtyal Dyno
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1396664397

MegaLog
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1396664397

Spark Map
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1396664397

Fuel VE Table
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-m...VE%20Table.jpg

I think my lost power has to do with timing. But I've got a set of detcans bolted to passenger upper motor mount bolt and any more than this it starts knocking, usually around 4200 and 6200. I've checked my base timing and cam timing a few times and both check out ok. And on top of this, the water injection didn't seem to help at all. Maybe a little, but I expected a lot more.

I've seen at least 3 different good spark maps, brain, hustler and pdextra who all run show timing in high boost should be between, well a lot higher than mine(+5deg or more). And from what I've seen, though it'll knock, my engine does still respond well to more timing. So it shows improvement but knocks.

One more question. I've heard mention that our engines will stop producing higher numbers with timing before knock onset. Is that true also in high boost situations. IE will our engines stop producing more hp/tq with more timing @ 20psi before knock ever shows itself? Because it seems like the opposite is happening with me.

Opinions please.

Just read the build of this. Outstanding.
I wonder how much of is now octane related.
50/50 water meth? Where are you injecting?

Thank you and I appreciate it.

Currently injecting 95% distilled water, maybe 5% rubbing alcohol. Shurflow 100psi internal bypass pump with an M4 McMaster Carr full cone nozzle ~ 220ml/min. And injecting about 6" before throttle body, right after the AIT sensor.

Something I started thinking about while piecing the thread together earlier today was, maybe I'm getting some blowby or oil in the engine. I noticed a little oil in the intake when I swapped out the injectors a couple months ago for smog, but it wasn't any amount that caught my attention. The engine is currently utilizing the stock MSM catch can system.

My understanding is that water only cools the charge, and to increase the effective octane you need methanol. This would be why you don't see a change in your knock threshold.

Also, California gas is very low octane compared to the rest of the country. I find that I run much lower timing than almost all of the maps posted here.

switch to e85, bump timing up like 10*, never look back lol

but I bet you guys still don't have the stuff down there.

so just move to Nor-Cal :party:

*edit: also my guess would be your msm manifold and hotside are probably choking the engine like crazy

Check mechanical cam timing (extension through plug hole) to the actual TDC on teh crank (not the pulley) and then the ignition offset in MS to the true reading with a timing light.

22psi on a 21psi map sensor is never a good idea. Or have you upgraded to a 29/44psi sensor?

Aside from that, the map you are running is for a low boost, standard compression engine.

You are not going to go past 260-270whp on 10* timing. Since you now have a low compression engine and WI, bump up the timing. Just make sure you listen for knock.

Your AFR looks pretty lean. I target 11.5:1 by 13psi. You're above 12:1 at times. Try adding fuel and see if you can increase the timing.

these.

I have a SymtechLabs 4 bar that I installed in your ECU Rev. Would you happen to have a decent looking low compression map that I could use for reference? I'm sure you know a lot about high boost from your test cars over there.

And I know in that log I posted the picture of, that it was running a little lean through the pull and has since been fattened up to ~11.5. That just happened to be the one I recorded. It looks like the turbo is doing well at this boost, 93deg MAT.

The closest station is about 20 miles from me. I think there's only 3 in all of San Diego county. Which is a pretty big area, say like Elk Grove to Woodland to Roseville size area.

And the MSM turbine is actually nicer than the stock Mitsubishi housing, larger and smoother. The exhaust manifold itself isn't, but I'm not sold yet that it's a large restriction yet. I'll probably end up tapping it and see what kind of back pressure there really is.

And thanks for this recommendation. I've already done this twice and feel I'll be checking it again sometime again in the future.

Exact, 100% opposite of truth. :facepalm:

Nope nope nope
You have that completely ass backwards

Almost everybody running water/meth injection would be better off with just water (with a touch of alcohol added to kill algae). The meth is evolutionary baggage from the days of carbs and turbos and no intercoolers.

btw your ait's aren't really an indication of low exhaust pressure, that's an indication of how well your heat exchanger is working.

so just to clarify, you hear what you think is det any time you increase timing from where its at now?

Thank you both. That is why I'm running what I'm running. A gallon distilled water and a shot of isopropyl alcohol

I don't think the MSM stuff is a restriction in this case. This is purely tuning or motor issues. (Hopefully not.)

Ask vteckiller.

Yeah. I wasn't really trying to say my AITs were due to low exhaust back pressure. Just implying that the combination of the heat exchanger and compressed air coming out of the turbo (turbo efficiency) are looking good 93deg at the end of the pull.

And yes, I think I hear det any time I add more timing than what I've got in my spark map now in regards to the top 2 rows. The rest of the map runs great.

Yeah. How much power are you making? Timing/gas/boost?

I think if I was able to get the timing up where it "should" be (15-18 w/water), I'd be over 300 by now. Aka my long term goal.

I'll make sure more fuel is added and play around with the timing some more and keep everyone posted.

Actually, it's evolutionary from the days of pistons the size of large coffee cans powering bombers full of scared-18 year olds fighting Nazis. Alcohol was used as an anti-freeze agent to handle the temperatures those aircraft encountered.

And some pictures for your viewing pleasure.
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1396726252
Need to clean up a few loose wires still (oil temp, det can hose, old spray motor leads). Red/black wires very top by wipers is temp motor spray activation LED.

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1396726252
My tuning tools.

Just spitballing here:

How low on the block is the mount bracket? And is there any chance you are actually picking up some noise from the chassis or engine movement instead of actual knock?

I'm not at all familiar with the NB 1.8, but on the NA 1.6 the vestigial knock sensor mount (carried over from the GTX) is just under the head, between cyls 2&3.

Meth itself is really only useful to add fuel. Ecoboost Ford guys use it to compensate for a direct injection HPFP that is done after just a tune. Water is where it is at to quell knock.

This. A pressure gauge in the exhaust mani would give you some info, but an EGT gauge would be much more informative in your case OP.

The MSM stuff is a hindrance to efficiency and spool, but it only minimally effects knock threshold in my experience. I can run just about the same timing on my MSM as I could in my old BEGI 2554 car.

Your timing curve is way gross in those rows. IMHO, you are too heavy handed in the lower boost ones and they should be flattened out some.

We don't have good gas anymore and no 93 octane here so I run self blended 94 octane. It is ethanol free 91 mixed with a little e85, ~10% ethanol content total. I run ~15-17* timing at 183 kpa and ~13-15* at 212kpa with no knock, but I have run out of fuel without an e85 station near and when I put in 91 octane I got knock above 11 psi boost.

I would peg it at about 250 rw-dynojet-hp but I have not been able to get it on a dyno since putting in the clutch that wouldn't slip at 16 psi and the 3.6 gears.

I've got those 2 upper rows set like that for testing knock. I set the timing in boost and know exactly what it's going to be. No interpolation between this and that. Once I much better understand what my motor wants, I'll make them look better.

Exactly. It stayed around because guys were turbo'ing stuff with carbs or later with shitty baindaids and there was a need for fuel enrichment. Now we have real EMS and dont need fuel enrichment, and we have big cheap intercoolers and dont need the volatility of meth to lower IATs.

It blows my mind that people still do a 50/50 mix and then either pull fuel out of their tune or just deal with black smoke belching 10.0:1 AFRs.
All the Mustang retards do this and then shit their pants when anybody (me) tries to suggest otherwise. Telling them not to mix meth in makes them almost as mad as the idea of gays marrying.

This is where I have the copper tube bolted on my car.

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1396733774

slmhofy - your ms.com thread references a small 16G:

"MHI (Mitsubishi Heavy Industries) - TD05H (frame size) - small 16G (compressor size)
For simplicity, the term “16G” is used in referencing anything having to do with the Mitsubishi turbo in the rest of this article."

Are you running a small 16G or an EVOIII 16G wheel?

05Pearl would be a good resource for the OP. ^^^^

What did you do the the head/combustion chambers? You simply should not have knock where you are in this engine. You have some sort of mechanical problem causing knock or the perception of knock.

Yep, I've already been in contact with him, to a small extent. I am running the BNR EVOIII 16G modified MSM turbo.

Ok, I see now you are running the EVOIII wheel - thanks for the clarification.

For clarification for others in the thread - I'm basically running the same turbo as slmhofy. I'm right at 300whp on 91oct at 5200' altitude. I do however have a ported head and VVT. Would that make up for a 40whp difference? I don't know.

How audible should the ping/knock be with det cans?

I originally had the cheap ass Harbor Freight stethoscope setup, but that shit would hurt my hears. Physically and through how loud the engine noise was. With this setup now, it's much more quieter. Just wondering how loud the PING should be when it does show up. Is it muffled, faint, loud, sharp. Just want to be sure of what I'm trying not to hear.

You can easily hear it without the det cans.

It seems that the consensus thus far is that you ought to be able to run more timing, so ensuring that you are actually hearing knock (since you don't have a knock sensor to log) would be beneficial. If you are hearing other crap through the cans and limiting the timing because of that, you are leaving a lot on the table.

My :2cents: : I'd move the tube to a "dedicated" location with no other attachments, perhaps the bung above the oil pressure sending unit if that is threaded. The less you have interfering with the signal the cleaner it'll be.

Do you have a real oil pressure gauge? A lot of people say they see the needle will bounce with detonation, are you seeing that?

Hmm...

So i read through this thread and i don't understand.
22psi and only 260hp?
Caused by bad tune and crappy hotside parts?

Still doesn't seem right.

He's not running much less timing than i did when i made 260hp at only 12psi. Granted i have a different turbo, but i still have a cast log manifold, and cast turndown / mixing housing...

I will look into moving the detcan tube.

And I have a real oil pressure Sender, and the gauge has been modified to more accurately show pressure differentials, but the gauge is still internally dampened, which I think would make it very numb to knock. It reacts pretty slowly to pressure changes.

Only a stock oil pressure sensor from an NA does this. An aftermarket one will have a different sensor that is not prone or as prone to interference from the pressure wave interference they are talking about.

Engines don't knock AND make more power. If you think it's false knock (which it likely is), rent an hour or two of dyno time, add a degree or so at a time and watch the power increase. When the gains start slowing down, you're good.

Then throw away your det cans.

I gained around 30whp the last time I added 4 degrees across peak boost cells(8deg changed to 12deg). I backed it down a couple degrees to where I am now with 2psi more boost.

So if everything else is working correctly, our engines should stop making power by adding more timing at full boost before it knocks?

Whether it knocks or not is relative to the fuel being used, or rather the octane content.

It's possible to have more octane than a engine requires and adding timing will just put you on the back side of the MBT peak. In that case you will generally lose power and not hear any knock. This is because the flame front is moving too slowly and still never reaches the piston on the top of the up stroke.

My post was in regards to your original post where you said "increasing timing improves my engine's performance, but I hear knock" (paraphrasing).

If increasing timing improves power, then it's not knocking. Whatever you're hearing is something else in the drivetrain that is resonating near the same frequency.


The fact that performance is increasing, means that your timing was too conservative and the flame front was chasing the piston down the bore. Increasing the timing allows the flame front to reach the piston just as it starts to make the down stroke on the combustion cycle, making use of all of the fuel's thermal energy. Catching the piston at this very moment is referred to as MBT (maximum brake torque). Generally we tune to just before MBT, for safety.

Knock happens when the ignition timing is too aggressive and the expanding flame front hits the piston as it's still on the up stroke (compression). The pressure of the flame front pressing against the piston, that is still moving up, means that a large mount of the thermal energy of the fuel is wasted trying to stop the pistons up stroke. So you will see less power output on a dyno and you will very likely hear knock as the engines internal tolerances are overcome and hard parts are actually touching each other. This is what generally causes spun rod bearings and catastrophic engine failures.

So, engines don't knock AND make more power.

Very good explanation. Thank you.

I think the MSM turbine housing is just too small for the td05 turbine, even once machined, unless you significantly hogged out the inlet to the turbine. And if you did that its pretty likely that you messed up the airflow anyways. You're probably better off turning the boost down and turning the timing up until you can get a different set of hotside parts in the car.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but I think you'd be surprised at how well the MSM tubine is designed compared to the Mitsubishi and how similar in size the turbine wheels actually are.

MSM (IHI) Turbine Wheel .49A/R
Exducer 43.65mm = 1.719”
Inducer 57.20mm = 2.252”

16G (MHI) Turbine Wheel .60A/R
Exducer 49.022 = 1.930”
Inducer 55.880 = 2.200”

Stock MSM housing before I cleaned it up.
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1396844889

Someone elses ported MHI housing.
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1396844889

The only large difference I've noticed in the 16G turbine housing, besides the fact that it is much physically larger and heavier, is that the inlet on my ported 16G housing is 2.25" where as the MSM housing is only 1.75". That said, the 16G housing immediately closes up and by the time the throat reaches the wastegate ports they're pretty much even.

Ahh, what the heck. Here's couple more for anyone who's interested.

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1396844889

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1396844889

StratoBlue, That was the best explanation of knock I have ever read thank you, im going to save that post and reference it whenever I have questions myself.

Thanks! Glad I could provide some insight. I tune cars everyday, so it's something I deal with regularly.

Hi Shane,

I have a very similar setup, only real difference is the inlet size on the compressor housing cover:

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1383704955

My car was making 232 whp / 220 lbft @ 6,330 rpm at 16 psi. On a very slow ramp speed (250rpm/sec) it would get an occasional ping so we backed it off another degree and it lost 10 whp.

The engine was using lots of oil so we pulled it down again and found it had a #1 bore issue and an inlet valve issue on either #3 or #4. It now has new rings and bearings so I am still putting mileage on things before hitting the dyno again.

I'll keep you posted with how I go just so we can compare notes.

Cheers

Also I am running 9:1 +1mm CP pistons (SC7542). I'm already running less timing than you by the looks of it:

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...7&d=1403052954

Are you running a standard exhaust? Mine is standard except for the dump pipe.

You said it's better but .49 ar is tiny for a 4cyl shooting for 300hp. That's probably why your not making what you wish cause you cant get the flow you need.

Tim,

I would love to see what you end up with .

And yes you're running quite a bit less timing than I am. Hopefully you can get some of that back with your rebuilt motor.

I currently have the small 99-00 solid lifter intake cam in but I'm getting a set of mild 264 cams made from Delta Cams. I'll get those put in soonish and see what I come up with.

I've also been tempted a few times to go down to this one gas station that has 100 octane fuel and see what I can do as far as timing and power. I'm sure I've got a lot of power left on the table with timing.

Long day though. Just finished replacing my rear main seal and I'm half way through a strong beer. Also got my flywheel resurfaced "while I was in there" That definitely feels like it's helping the FM2 clutch grab stronger. It had a few noticable hot spots.

And this is what I'm running for exhaust. Full 3" ARTech exhaust. With my complete stock exhaust bolted up to the turbo, it reaches 20psi by 6500rom instead of 4500.

Keep me posted on your findings.
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1403060702

Just a little update in case anyone was or ever is interested.

Something that I'd been wanting to do for a while now is go get some good (higher octane) gas and see what I could do as far as tuning and making some more power.

Luckily for us in San Diego, there's at least one gas station I know of that sells 100 octane out of the pump (not requiring separate gas canisters) and doesn't require a special credit card.

I ran the tank down to about 1/3 and pumped in about 8 gallons of this stuff.
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1405297329

Yes it's ridiculously expensive, but this was for testing/experimenting purposes.

The first thing I did was put put over to my usual testing street as to not waste much of this expensive refined prehistoric forest matter, but still get the 91 outta the lines and mix up the tank as best as I could. Once there I did a base run and then started turning up the timing. I did about 10 full 3rd gear pulls with varying timing and boost levels.

It was quickly apparent that the first 3 degrees of added timing made the most impact. I now have first hand experience of what everyone talks about when they say that after a point, added timing doesn't make much a difference.

I ended up with this as my final timing map which is about 5deg advanced through boost from my regular street/safe 91 octane map.

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1405297329

And the results via Virtual Dyno look like this. 91 vs ~97 both at 21psi.

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1405297329

I have to think that this is just another testament to what good gas offers. And California 91 is not that great. I'd imagine that I could get pretty close to this with decent 93.

So after I was done beating on the car, I decided to pull the #1 plug just for shits n giggles. I'm running bkr7e plugs and it looks like I can probably go even another step colder.

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/vY...M=w846-h693-no

That's all really. Just wanted to share with everyone. I'll do my best to enjoy the rest of my tank.

And one more comparing the run from the beginning of this thread, to what I ended up with yesterday.

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1405298327

Also it looks like I lost a couple hundred RPM in spool from the Virtual Dyno data. I gotta check and see if I can find out what that's about.

I've learned a lot in the past few months and especially this weekend about timing. There's probably more to be had. But I'm good for now...

Until these go in =D
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1405298327

That plug, so much knock.

With the det cans, I only heard it knock a couple of times. And I tuned it out. I know it sorta looks like knock, but I think it's just hot. Will be pulling the head in a few weeks when the cams go in to check on things just in case.

Maybe its the camera flash making it look like its covered with sparkely knock crystals.

Are the cams expensive? I have flirted with the idea of a VVT head swap but I figure it doesn't buy anything above 4,000 rpm which is where the car spends most of its life anyway.

Pretty substantial difference in power with the fuel allowing extra timing! Wish I had easy access to E85 here!

You might try retarding the timing in the area where your spool is slow. That will leave some additional heat in the exhaust to spin the turbine. All else being equal, that's probably where your spool went. With the timing change, more heat goes to pushing the piston and creating torque vs. pushing the turbine. Another factor is that the race fuel probably burns faster -- with basically the same effect.

Props for the data!

More spark advance = more spool unless you're so far retarded that a significant amount of fuel is burning in the exhaust, even still you'll be lacking power durning spoolup.

That plug looks terrible. You REALLY need to back the boost down on this thing and have a professional tune it before you smoke it.

its really hard to say imo, but if those dimples are from knock...well you're gonna have a bad time.

keep in mind 100oct doesn't make you invincible, it just helps

The deposits on the plug are from burning of oil and fuel additives. They appear to be ash primarily. You might be burning a little oil or you may be running a little rich, which is safe but may end up fouling your plugs and generating too many deposits in the combustion chamber. Run a large bottle of Techron in your next tank of fuel to clean up the combustion chamber and run Rotella T6 if you aren't already.

I don't see any evidence of detonation. Detonation leaves little specs of aluminum or rust on the insulator in minor cases.

EDIT: And, double checking my thoughts I browsed gurgle images:
http://www.mts1200.info/motorcyclein..._condition.jpg

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1405434157

http://www.ek9.org/forum/attachments...ug-reading.jpg