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Old 04-04-2014, 11:19 PM   #1
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Default 22PSI, 260WHP/246WTQ, WTF?

I'm finally breaking down and creating a thread because I feel I need some outside help. I believe I've exhausted every option I can think of.

Long story short, I've using a home built EVO3 16G stuffed into a MSM turbine housing that I machined myself with a built motor, and I think it's down on power. Very similar to BNR, but more DIY.

Here's the link to the turbo fabrication.

How to build your own "bolt on" 16G

Never posted a thread about it here because it included MSM "fail parts"

Specs I believe are mostly in sig.

Forged rods / 8.8 Wisecos
"Cleaned up" head, runners, short side, bowl, etc
ARP yada yada
All 2.25 charge pipes/ebay intercooler
ARTech 3" from turbine to tip
FM Level 2 clutch
Rev MS2e w/ FIC650s
Roughly 165psi compression across all cylinders
Stock MSM ignition no blowout at all
BK7REs gapped to .35
Water injection 100psi pump, 220ml/min triggers @ 15psi
91 Octane fuel

With the setup, I'm only getting about 260whp/246wtq via Virtual Dyno. I'm pretty sure this is fairly accurate. Last year I did around 200whp/200wtq @ 15psi on Virtual Dyno and was verified with almost identical numbers from a DynoJet.

Now the car hauls ***, but I still feel like something isn't right. Numbers aside; the car has relatively new RS3s on 15x8 6ULs. If the tires are say warmer than 70f, in a straight line, I can not break them loose during WOT acceleration at all, first, second, etc. When I shift hard into second, yes it'll break'em loose for a second or two, but will catch. If the tires are cold, I can break them loose in first for sure, and sometimes second WOT pull.

So that gives you an idea of some numbers and real life traction scenarios for the given power made.

Here are some pictures of a 3rd gear pull. 4th gear pulls are hard to acquire in San Diego. I've lost my license before and it was worse than the fines.

22psi by 5000 in 3rd. Will do it by about 4500 in 4th gear.

Virtyal Dyno


MegaLog


Spark Map


Fuel VE Table


I think my lost power has to do with timing. But I've got a set of detcans bolted to passenger upper motor mount bolt and any more than this it starts knocking, usually around 4200 and 6200. I've checked my base timing and cam timing a few times and both check out ok. And on top of this, the water injection didn't seem to help at all. Maybe a little, but I expected a lot more.

I've seen at least 3 different good spark maps, brain, hustler and pdextra who all run show timing in high boost should be between, well a lot higher than mine(+5deg or more). And from what I've seen, though it'll knock, my engine does still respond well to more timing. So it shows improvement but knocks.

One more question. I've heard mention that our engines will stop producing higher numbers with timing before knock onset. Is that true also in high boost situations. IE will our engines stop producing more hp/tq with more timing @ 20psi before knock ever shows itself? Because it seems like the opposite is happening with me.

Opinions please.
Attached Thumbnails
22PSI, 260WHP/246WTQ, WTF?-virtual%2520dyno%25203rd%2520gear%2520pull.jpg   22PSI, 260WHP/246WTQ, WTF?-megalog%252520viewer%2525203rd%252520gear%252520pull.jpg   22PSI, 260WHP/246WTQ, WTF?-spark%252520map.jpg  

Last edited by slmhofy; 04-05-2014 at 11:16 PM.
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Old 04-05-2014, 01:23 AM   #2
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Just read the build of this. Outstanding.
I wonder how much of is now octane related.
50/50 water meth? Where are you injecting?
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Old 04-05-2014, 02:29 AM   #3
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Just read the build of this. Outstanding.
I wonder how much of is now octane related.
50/50 water meth? Where are you injecting?
Thank you and I appreciate it.

Currently injecting 95% distilled water, maybe 5% rubbing alcohol. Shurflow 100psi internal bypass pump with an M4 McMaster Carr full cone nozzle ~ 220ml/min. And injecting about 6" before throttle body, right after the AIT sensor.

Something I started thinking about while piecing the thread together earlier today was, maybe I'm getting some blowby or oil in the engine. I noticed a little oil in the intake when I swapped out the injectors a couple months ago for smog, but it wasn't any amount that caught my attention. The engine is currently utilizing the stock MSM catch can system.
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Old 04-05-2014, 03:15 AM   #4
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My understanding is that water only cools the charge, and to increase the effective octane you need methanol. This would be why you don't see a change in your knock threshold.

Also, California gas is very low octane compared to the rest of the country. I find that I run much lower timing than almost all of the maps posted here.
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Old 04-05-2014, 03:17 AM   #5
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switch to e85, bump timing up like 10*, never look back lol

but I bet you guys still don't have the stuff down there.

so just move to Nor-Cal

*edit: also my guess would be your msm manifold and hotside are probably choking the engine like crazy
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Old 04-05-2014, 03:19 AM   #6
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Check mechanical cam timing (extension through plug hole) to the actual TDC on teh crank (not the pulley) and then the ignition offset in MS to the true reading with a timing light.
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Old 04-05-2014, 03:34 AM   #7
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22psi on a 21psi map sensor is never a good idea. Or have you upgraded to a 29/44psi sensor?

Aside from that, the map you are running is for a low boost, standard compression engine.

You are not going to go past 260-270whp on 10* timing. Since you now have a low compression engine and WI, bump up the timing. Just make sure you listen for knock.
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Old 04-05-2014, 06:01 AM   #8
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Your AFR looks pretty lean. I target 11.5:1 by 13psi. You're above 12:1 at times. Try adding fuel and see if you can increase the timing.
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Old 04-05-2014, 08:41 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reverant View Post
22psi on a 21psi map sensor is never a good idea. Or have you upgraded to a 29/44psi sensor?

Aside from that, the map you are running is for a low boost, standard compression engine.

You are not going to go past 260-270whp on 10* timing. Since you now have a low compression engine and WI, bump up the timing. Just make sure you listen for knock.
Quote:
Originally Posted by VanMSM View Post
Your AFR looks pretty lean. I target 11.5:1 by 13psi. You're above 12:1 at times. Try adding fuel and see if you can increase the timing.

these.
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Old 04-05-2014, 11:28 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reverant View Post
22psi on a 21psi map sensor is never a good idea. Or have you upgraded to a 29/44psi sensor?

Aside from that, the map you are running is for a low boost, standard compression engine.

You are not going to go past 260-270whp on 10* timing. Since you now have a low compression engine and WI, bump up the timing. Just make sure you listen for knock.
I have a SymtechLabs 4 bar that I installed in your ECU Rev. Would you happen to have a decent looking low compression map that I could use for reference? I'm sure you know a lot about high boost from your test cars over there.

And I know in that log I posted the picture of, that it was running a little lean through the pull and has since been fattened up to ~11.5. That just happened to be the one I recorded. It looks like the turbo is doing well at this boost, 93deg MAT.
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Old 04-05-2014, 11:42 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 18psi View Post
switch to e85, bump timing up like 10*, never look back lol

but I bet you guys still don't have the stuff down there.

so just move to Nor-Cal

*edit: also my guess would be your msm manifold and hotside are probably choking the engine like crazy
The closest station is about 20 miles from me. I think there's only 3 in all of San Diego county. Which is a pretty big area, say like Elk Grove to Woodland to Roseville size area.

And the MSM turbine is actually nicer than the stock Mitsubishi housing, larger and smoother. The exhaust manifold itself isn't, but I'm not sold yet that it's a large restriction yet. I'll probably end up tapping it and see what kind of back pressure there really is.
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Old 04-05-2014, 11:52 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vteckiller2000 View Post
Check mechanical cam timing (extension through plug hole) to the actual TDC on teh crank (not the pulley) and then the ignition offset in MS to the true reading with a timing light.
And thanks for this recommendation. I've already done this twice and feel I'll be checking it again sometime again in the future.
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Old 04-05-2014, 01:27 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3rdCarMX5 View Post
My understanding is that water only cools the charge, and to increase the effective octane you need methanol.
Exact, 100% opposite of truth.
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Old 04-05-2014, 02:07 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3rdCarMX5 View Post
My understanding is that water only cools the charge, and to increase the effective octane you need methanol.
Nope nope nope
You have that completely *** backwards

Almost everybody running water/meth injection would be better off with just water (with a touch of alcohol added to kill algae). The meth is evolutionary baggage from the days of carbs and turbos and no intercoolers.
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Old 04-05-2014, 02:11 PM   #15
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btw your ait's aren't really an indication of low exhaust pressure, that's an indication of how well your heat exchanger is working.

so just to clarify, you hear what you think is det any time you increase timing from where its at now?
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Old 04-05-2014, 02:58 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by hornetball View Post
Exact, 100% opposite of truth.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Full_Tilt_Boogie View Post
Nope nope nope
You have that completely *** backwards

Almost everybody running water/meth injection would be better off with just water (with a touch of alcohol added to kill algae). The meth is evolutionary baggage from the days of carbs and turbos and no intercoolers.
Thank you both. That is why I'm running what I'm running. A gallon distilled water and a shot of isopropyl alcohol
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Old 04-05-2014, 03:01 PM   #17
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I don't think the MSM stuff is a restriction in this case. This is purely tuning or motor issues. (Hopefully not.)

Ask vteckiller.
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Old 04-05-2014, 03:07 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 18psi View Post
btw your ait's aren't really an indication of low exhaust pressure, that's an indication of how well your heat exchanger is working.

so just to clarify, you hear what you think is det any time you increase timing from where its at now?
Yeah. I wasn't really trying to say my AITs were due to low exhaust back pressure. Just implying that the combination of the heat exchanger and compressed air coming out of the turbo (turbo efficiency) are looking good 93deg at the end of the pull.

And yes, I think I hear det any time I add more timing than what I've got in my spark map now in regards to the top 2 rows. The rest of the map runs great.
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Old 04-05-2014, 03:12 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vteckiller2000 View Post
Check mechanical cam timing (extension through plug hole) to the actual TDC on teh crank (not the pulley) and then the ignition offset in MS to the true reading with a timing light.
Yeah. How much power are you making? Timing/gas/boost?

I think if I was able to get the timing up where it "should" be (15-18 w/water), I'd be over 300 by now. Aka my long term goal.
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Old 04-05-2014, 04:23 PM   #20
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I'll make sure more fuel is added and play around with the timing some more and keep everyone posted.
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