BorgWarner EFR Turbos - Page 7 - Miata Turbo Forum - Boost cars, acquire cats.

DIY Turbo Discussion greddy on a 1.8? homebrew kit?
Sponsored by:
Sponsored by:

BorgWarner EFR Turbos

Old 03-18-2011, 02:29 AM
  #121  
VladiTuned
iTrader: (76)
 
18psi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 35,088
Total Cats: 3,125
Default

Originally Posted by jtothawhat View Post
Erin,

After looking at this graph from BW it looks like they're rated at engine horsepower, see I knew I was right, which explains why that 7064 is making 540 whp which is about 500 crank horsepower--what they're rated at.


Holla at cha boi.
[IMG]http://treadstoneintercoolers.com/borg_warner/EFR_selection.JPG[IMG]
Better check your math.
Last time I checked it was called drivetrain LOSS and not GAIN.

Originally Posted by d k View Post
Yes, only to a point. Then it falls off and the lower comp will keep climbing.

Please explain how with higher compression the power "drops off" past a certain point, I'm dying to hear this.
And what point would that be? (assuming no detonation)
18psi is offline  
Old 03-18-2011, 02:31 AM
  #122  
MT Pony Underground
iTrader: (6)
 
Nagase's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 1,805
Total Cats: 0
Default

Originally Posted by 18psi View Post
Better check your math.
Last time I checked it was called drivetrain LOSS and not GAIN.
I use pure synthetic in my driveline.

It adds horsepower. I read it on the label.
Nagase is offline  
Old 03-18-2011, 03:52 AM
  #123  
Supporting Vendor
iTrader: (31)
 
Savington's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Sunnyvale, CA
Posts: 15,021
Total Cats: 1,825
Default

Originally Posted by 18psi View Post
Please explain how with higher compression the power "drops off" past a certain point, I'm dying to hear this.
And what point would that be? (assuming no detonation)
lol @ "assuming no detonation". That's the entire reason a low comp motor makes more power. High compression will respond better, spool faster, and make less power as the boost levels go up because you can't run the timing a low comp motor can.
__________________
Trackspeed Engineering
High-Performance Turbo Specialists - Sunnyvale, CA - 650-701-7223 - Email us!
Originally Posted by codrus View Post
Basically I've come over to the camp of "If something is a reliability problem on the track, just ask Andrew and do what he says".
Savington is offline  
Old 03-18-2011, 03:59 AM
  #124  
Supporting Vendor
iTrader: (31)
 
Savington's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Sunnyvale, CA
Posts: 15,021
Total Cats: 1,825
Default

Originally Posted by jtothawhat View Post
I think a 7064 vs GTX3076R would be a much better comparison.
Why? It's a 6mm smaller compressor and the same turbine.

Think about the actual wheel sizes and A/Rs - don't just regurgitate "X=Y because the internetz sed so".

GT2860RS = "6054"
GT3071R = "7160" (assuming true T3 housing)
GT3076R = "7660"
GT3582R = "8268"

Borg is running larger turbines, similar/smaller A/Rs, and relying on the wheel inertia to make up the difference (******* smart - big A/R for top-end flow, good engineering for response). The 3076 vs 7670 is perfectly valid, as the charts show = the Borg gets outspooled by a hair, but the 3076 starts to get trumped up top.

Some of the blithering on this forum is getting out of hand.
__________________
Trackspeed Engineering
High-Performance Turbo Specialists - Sunnyvale, CA - 650-701-7223 - Email us!
Originally Posted by codrus View Post
Basically I've come over to the camp of "If something is a reliability problem on the track, just ask Andrew and do what he says".
Savington is offline  
Old 03-18-2011, 04:07 AM
  #125  
VladiTuned
iTrader: (76)
 
18psi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 35,088
Total Cats: 3,125
Default

Originally Posted by Savington View Post
lol @ "assuming no detonation". That's the entire reason a low comp motor makes more power. High compression will respond better, spool faster, and make less power as the boost levels go up because you can't run the timing a low comp motor can.
Whats so funny about that?
If he said "higher compression the power will drop off on pump gas" or something to that effect I wouldn't say anything.
But on say race gas or e85, where knock doesn't happen til you hit insane pressure levels, how would higher compression start "dropping off in power"?
18psi is offline  
Old 03-18-2011, 04:19 AM
  #126  
MT Pony Underground
iTrader: (6)
 
Nagase's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 1,805
Total Cats: 0
Default

Originally Posted by 18psi View Post
Whats so funny about that?
If he said "higher compression the power will drop off on pump gas" or something to that effect I wouldn't say anything.
But on say race gas or e85, where knock doesn't happen til you hit insane pressure levels, how would higher compression start "dropping off in power"?
Race gas and E85 just move the problem up in scale.

There's a large difference between 1.9L at 7400rpm making 400hp and 1.5L at 15,000rpm making 1,200hp (extreme example, 80's F1 engines). All else equal, on a turbo, the higher comp, the more peak power you give up.
Nagase is offline  
Old 03-18-2011, 04:43 AM
  #127  
Elite Member
iTrader: (24)
 
kotomile's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Monterey, CA
Posts: 7,538
Total Cats: 40
Default

So much theoretical BS to sift through...

So, any word from the as-yet-unnamed possible people who may or may not exist potentially having or not having one of these EFR turbos on a Miata? Pics? Dynos? Anecdotal observations?
kotomile is offline  
Old 03-18-2011, 04:50 AM
  #128  
NB/VVT Connoisseur
iTrader: (24)
 
viperormiata's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Key West
Posts: 6,124
Total Cats: 252
Default

Originally Posted by kotomile View Post
So much theoretical BS to sift through...

So, any word from the as-yet-unnamed possible people who may or may not exist potentially having or not having one of these EFR turbos on a Miata? Pics? Dynos? Anecdotal observations?
Not much yet. But there have been small snip-its of video and a few pictures floating around the Full-Race website.

In the EFR video on youtube, you can see a miata with a EFR...for like 1 or 2 seconds. Also, in the EFR manual (or whatever they call it) you can see a miata in the shop with a good looking turbo setup.

I feel like a detective
viperormiata is offline  
Old 03-18-2011, 04:52 AM
  #129  
MT Pony Underground
iTrader: (6)
 
Nagase's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 1,805
Total Cats: 0
Default

There've been dynos of all the B1 series (6255/6258/6758) on a 1.8l miata, but the setup is much less than optimized. Log manifold, stock 94-97 block, stock IM, ect ect. They don't want the dynos released yet because the setups make them look like crap. So, they've only emailed to a few people.

All I can say is that the dynos, for the crappy setups, look pretty good.
Nagase is offline  
Old 03-18-2011, 05:50 AM
  #130  
Elite Member
iTrader: (24)
 
kotomile's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Monterey, CA
Posts: 7,538
Total Cats: 40
Default

Originally Posted by viperormiata View Post
I feel like a detective
Originally Posted by Nagase View Post
There've been dynos of all the B1 series (6255/6258/6758) on a 1.8l miata, but the setup is much less than optimized. Log manifold, stock 94-97 block, stock IM, ect ect. They don't want the dynos released yet because the setups make them look like crap. So, they've only emailed to a few people.

All I can say is that the dynos, for the crappy setups, look pretty good.
That helps to explain some of the secrecy, then. Thanks for the insight.

I, for one, want to see how the smaller twin-scroll EFRs/GTXs do. I see the twin-scroll gaining in popularity and hope that some good options for us turbo and manifold wise result from it.
kotomile is offline  
Old 03-18-2011, 05:53 AM
  #131  
MT Pony Underground
iTrader: (6)
 
Nagase's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 1,805
Total Cats: 0
Default

Full Race won't be doing any of the B1 series in twin scroll. Testing found them undesirable. Smallest will be the 2 series (7064 and up).

Abe is making my EFR compatible manifold, I talked to Jason (jtothewhat) and he's contacted Abe about a twin scroll manifold as well, for a 7670, I think.

Last edited by Nagase; 03-18-2011 at 06:06 AM.
Nagase is offline  
Old 03-18-2011, 06:09 AM
  #132  
Supporting Vendor
iTrader: (31)
 
Savington's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Sunnyvale, CA
Posts: 15,021
Total Cats: 1,825
Default

Originally Posted by 18psi View Post
Whats so funny about that?
If he said "higher compression the power will drop off on pump gas" or something to that effect I wouldn't say anything.
But on say race gas or e85, where knock doesn't happen til you hit insane pressure levels, how would higher compression start "dropping off in power"?
Since he didn't specifically state pump gas, we get to infer that he really meant race gas, E85, JP6, or No1 Diesel, right?



You're e-thugging the guy for a statement that is true in 95% of cases. Nobody's impressed.
__________________
Trackspeed Engineering
High-Performance Turbo Specialists - Sunnyvale, CA - 650-701-7223 - Email us!
Originally Posted by codrus View Post
Basically I've come over to the camp of "If something is a reliability problem on the track, just ask Andrew and do what he says".
Savington is offline  
Old 03-18-2011, 09:25 AM
  #133  
Elite Member
iTrader: (2)
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 8,676
Total Cats: 119
Default

Originally Posted by jtothawhat View Post
I think in that forum they said 7670=GT35, 8376=GT40, 9180=GT42

I think a 7064 vs GTX3076R would be a much better comparison.
No, look at the wheel sizes.

Originally Posted by Savington View Post
Why? It's a 6mm smaller compressor and the same turbine.

Think about the actual wheel sizes and A/Rs - don't just regurgitate "X=Y because the internetz sed so".

GT2860RS = "6054"
GT3071R = "7160" (assuming true T3 housing)
GT3076R = "7660"
GT3582R = "8268"

Borg is running larger turbines, similar/smaller A/Rs, and relying on the wheel inertia to make up the difference (******* smart - big A/R for top-end flow, good engineering for response). The 3076 vs 7670 is perfectly valid, as the charts show = the Borg gets outspooled by a hair, but the 3076 starts to get trumped up top.

Some of the blithering on this forum is getting out of hand.
Hey that's what I just said. Yah I saw that the borg efrs can use larger turbines and attain similar spool because of the lighter weight. Don't compare the EFR to the GT series though- compare them to the GTX series which are in general, bigger all around than the GT series.
Faeflora is offline  
Old 03-18-2011, 11:22 AM
  #134  
VladiTuned
iTrader: (76)
 
18psi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 35,088
Total Cats: 3,125
Default

Originally Posted by Savington View Post
Since he didn't specifically state pump gas, we get to infer that he really meant race gas, E85, JP6, or No1 Diesel, right?



You're e-thugging the guy for a statement that is true in 95% of cases. Nobody's impressed.
I'm not e-thugging anyone. Stop getting your panties in a bunch so easily, holy ****. Since both you and I are using e85, and since with e85 knock is damn near non-existant til you get to insane pressure levels (and even then I'm not sure it will knock) I wanted to know if he meant overall or "just on pump gas" because that statement wouldn't be true with no knock, and if it was I wanted to hear an explanation.
18psi is offline  
Old 03-18-2011, 12:20 PM
  #135  
Senior Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (7)
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Chicagoland
Posts: 1,370
Total Cats: 3
Default

Lets all love each other and get back on topic
jtothawhat is offline  
Old 03-18-2011, 12:24 PM
  #136  
VladiTuned
iTrader: (76)
 
18psi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 35,088
Total Cats: 3,125
Default

So when is your EFR coming in/getting installed and did you opt for iwg/bov?
18psi is offline  
Old 03-18-2011, 12:59 PM
  #137  
Senior Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (7)
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Chicagoland
Posts: 1,370
Total Cats: 3
Default

April I was told is the ETA, I will be running the IWG and BOV as well with a .92 A/R Twin Scroll housing.
jtothawhat is offline  
Old 03-18-2011, 01:25 PM
  #138  
Elite Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 6,455
Total Cats: 81
Default

Originally Posted by Savington View Post
Borg is running larger turbines, similar/smaller A/Rs, and relying on the wheel inertia to make up the difference (******* smart - big A/R for top-end flow, good engineering for response). The 3076 vs 7670 is perfectly valid, as the charts show = the Borg gets outspooled by a hair, but the 3076 starts to get trumped up top.
Indeed lighter wheel inertia helps with response once above the boost threshold. Great for a track car.

However for a street car, boost threshold RPM is important too; this is more of a function of the turbine and compressor aero characteristics than the inertia. Bigass turbines and compressors, if inefficient at the flowrates at lower RPM, will have a higher boost threshold RPM than smaller turbos, regardless of lighter wheel parts.
JasonC SBB is offline  
Old 03-18-2011, 01:52 PM
  #139  
Senior Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (7)
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Chicagoland
Posts: 1,370
Total Cats: 3
Default

"Alright so i overlaid a couple of graphs, one from today and one from a while ago with the GTX. As i had found with the Medium canister, overlaying the GTX3076 to the EFR7670 actually showed the same response on the road. On the dyno it was worse.

Now that i have the high pressure actuator, i did a couple of road tests and check this out.
I had "Felt" the turbo reacting quicker and here is evidence of it.

Here are two runs overlaid. I tried overlaying RPM, TPS, or Boost to see how they compare. But i thought this one would work great to illustrate what i feel. I thought it was interesting how much later i hit full throttle, and how the EFR hit the same boost target at the same time.



The time frame is .5 seconds later that it was floored(sounds fast, but consider that whole run was about 1.9 seconds.... Then also the RPM difference was about 250. That is i floored the EFR at 250RPM later than the GTX, yet the EFR hit the boost at the same RPM!

More info tomorrow!"


This is a qoute from the subi forums on the 7670 vs GTX3076R which makes thing look a lot better for the EFR.
jtothawhat is offline  
Old 03-18-2011, 01:52 PM
  #140  
Newb
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 11
Total Cats: 0
Default

Someone on another forum began a 6758 build for on a NC.

filphil is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Quick Reply: BorgWarner EFR Turbos


Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service

© 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands

We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.