BorgWarner EFR Turbos - Page 7 - Miata Turbo Forum - Boost cars, acquire cats.

Welcome to Miataturbo.net   Members
 


DIY Turbo Discussion greddy on a 1.8? homebrew kit?

Reply
 
 
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 03-18-2011, 02:29 AM   #121
Murderator
iTrader: (76)
 
18psi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 36,175
Total Cats: 2,578
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jtothawhat View Post
Erin,

After looking at this graph from BW it looks like they're rated at engine horsepower, see I knew I was right, which explains why that 7064 is making 540 whp which is about 500 crank horsepower--what they're rated at.


Holla at cha boi.
[IMG]http://treadstoneintercoolers.com/borg_warner/EFR_selection.JPG[IMG]
Better check your math.
Last time I checked it was called drivetrain LOSS and not GAIN.

Quote:
Originally Posted by d k View Post
Yes, only to a point. Then it falls off and the lower comp will keep climbing.

Please explain how with higher compression the power "drops off" past a certain point, I'm dying to hear this.
And what point would that be? (assuming no detonation)
18psi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2011, 02:31 AM   #122
MT Pony Underground
iTrader: (6)
 
Nagase's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 1,811
Total Cats: 0
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 18psi View Post
Better check your math.
Last time I checked it was called drivetrain LOSS and not GAIN.
I use pure synthetic in my driveline.

It adds horsepower. I read it on the label.
Nagase is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2011, 03:52 AM   #123
Supporting Vendor
iTrader: (31)
 
Savington's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Sunnyvale, CA
Posts: 14,362
Total Cats: 1,323
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 18psi View Post
Please explain how with higher compression the power "drops off" past a certain point, I'm dying to hear this.
And what point would that be? (assuming no detonation)
lol @ "assuming no detonation". That's the entire reason a low comp motor makes more power. High compression will respond better, spool faster, and make less power as the boost levels go up because you can't run the timing a low comp motor can.
Savington is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2011, 03:59 AM   #124
Supporting Vendor
iTrader: (31)
 
Savington's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Sunnyvale, CA
Posts: 14,362
Total Cats: 1,323
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jtothawhat View Post
I think a 7064 vs GTX3076R would be a much better comparison.
Why? It's a 6mm smaller compressor and the same turbine.

Think about the actual wheel sizes and A/Rs - don't just regurgitate "X=Y because the internetz sed so".

GT2860RS = "6054"
GT3071R = "7160" (assuming true T3 housing)
GT3076R = "7660"
GT3582R = "8268"

Borg is running larger turbines, similar/smaller A/Rs, and relying on the wheel inertia to make up the difference (******* smart - big A/R for top-end flow, good engineering for response). The 3076 vs 7670 is perfectly valid, as the charts show = the Borg gets outspooled by a hair, but the 3076 starts to get trumped up top.

Some of the blithering on this forum is getting out of hand.
Savington is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2011, 04:07 AM   #125
Murderator
iTrader: (76)
 
18psi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 36,175
Total Cats: 2,578
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Savington View Post
lol @ "assuming no detonation". That's the entire reason a low comp motor makes more power. High compression will respond better, spool faster, and make less power as the boost levels go up because you can't run the timing a low comp motor can.
Whats so funny about that?
If he said "higher compression the power will drop off on pump gas" or something to that effect I wouldn't say anything.
But on say race gas or e85, where knock doesn't happen til you hit insane pressure levels, how would higher compression start "dropping off in power"?
18psi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2011, 04:19 AM   #126
MT Pony Underground
iTrader: (6)
 
Nagase's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 1,811
Total Cats: 0
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 18psi View Post
Whats so funny about that?
If he said "higher compression the power will drop off on pump gas" or something to that effect I wouldn't say anything.
But on say race gas or e85, where knock doesn't happen til you hit insane pressure levels, how would higher compression start "dropping off in power"?
Race gas and E85 just move the problem up in scale.

There's a large difference between 1.9L at 7400rpm making 400hp and 1.5L at 15,000rpm making 1,200hp (extreme example, 80's F1 engines). All else equal, on a turbo, the higher comp, the more peak power you give up.
Nagase is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2011, 04:43 AM   #127
Elite Member
iTrader: (24)
 
kotomile's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Monterey, CA
Posts: 7,578
Total Cats: 40
Default

So much theoretical BS to sift through...

So, any word from the as-yet-unnamed possible people who may or may not exist potentially having or not having one of these EFR turbos on a Miata? Pics? Dynos? Anecdotal observations?
kotomile is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2011, 04:50 AM   #128
NB/VVT Connoisseur
iTrader: (23)
 
viperormiata's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Key West
Posts: 6,069
Total Cats: 253
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kotomile View Post
So much theoretical BS to sift through...

So, any word from the as-yet-unnamed possible people who may or may not exist potentially having or not having one of these EFR turbos on a Miata? Pics? Dynos? Anecdotal observations?
Not much yet. But there have been small snip-its of video and a few pictures floating around the Full-Race website.

In the EFR video on youtube, you can see a miata with a EFR...for like 1 or 2 seconds. Also, in the EFR manual (or whatever they call it) you can see a miata in the shop with a good looking turbo setup.

I feel like a detective
viperormiata is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2011, 04:52 AM   #129
MT Pony Underground
iTrader: (6)
 
Nagase's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 1,811
Total Cats: 0
Default

There've been dynos of all the B1 series (6255/6258/6758) on a 1.8l miata, but the setup is much less than optimized. Log manifold, stock 94-97 block, stock IM, ect ect. They don't want the dynos released yet because the setups make them look like crap. So, they've only emailed to a few people.

All I can say is that the dynos, for the crappy setups, look pretty good.
Nagase is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2011, 05:50 AM   #130
Elite Member
iTrader: (24)
 
kotomile's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Monterey, CA
Posts: 7,578
Total Cats: 40
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by viperormiata View Post
I feel like a detective
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nagase View Post
There've been dynos of all the B1 series (6255/6258/6758) on a 1.8l miata, but the setup is much less than optimized. Log manifold, stock 94-97 block, stock IM, ect ect. They don't want the dynos released yet because the setups make them look like crap. So, they've only emailed to a few people.

All I can say is that the dynos, for the crappy setups, look pretty good.
That helps to explain some of the secrecy, then. Thanks for the insight.

I, for one, want to see how the smaller twin-scroll EFRs/GTXs do. I see the twin-scroll gaining in popularity and hope that some good options for us turbo and manifold wise result from it.
kotomile is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2011, 05:53 AM   #131
MT Pony Underground
iTrader: (6)
 
Nagase's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 1,811
Total Cats: 0
Default

Full Race won't be doing any of the B1 series in twin scroll. Testing found them undesirable. Smallest will be the 2 series (7064 and up).

Abe is making my EFR compatible manifold, I talked to Jason (jtothewhat) and he's contacted Abe about a twin scroll manifold as well, for a 7670, I think.

Last edited by Nagase; 03-18-2011 at 06:06 AM.
Nagase is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2011, 06:09 AM   #132
Supporting Vendor
iTrader: (31)
 
Savington's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Sunnyvale, CA
Posts: 14,362
Total Cats: 1,323
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 18psi View Post
Whats so funny about that?
If he said "higher compression the power will drop off on pump gas" or something to that effect I wouldn't say anything.
But on say race gas or e85, where knock doesn't happen til you hit insane pressure levels, how would higher compression start "dropping off in power"?
Since he didn't specifically state pump gas, we get to infer that he really meant race gas, E85, JP6, or No1 Diesel, right?



You're e-thugging the guy for a statement that is true in 95% of cases. Nobody's impressed.
Savington is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2011, 09:25 AM   #133
Elite Member
iTrader: (2)
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 8,782
Total Cats: 119
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jtothawhat View Post
I think in that forum they said 7670=GT35, 8376=GT40, 9180=GT42

I think a 7064 vs GTX3076R would be a much better comparison.
No, look at the wheel sizes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Savington View Post
Why? It's a 6mm smaller compressor and the same turbine.

Think about the actual wheel sizes and A/Rs - don't just regurgitate "X=Y because the internetz sed so".

GT2860RS = "6054"
GT3071R = "7160" (assuming true T3 housing)
GT3076R = "7660"
GT3582R = "8268"

Borg is running larger turbines, similar/smaller A/Rs, and relying on the wheel inertia to make up the difference (******* smart - big A/R for top-end flow, good engineering for response). The 3076 vs 7670 is perfectly valid, as the charts show = the Borg gets outspooled by a hair, but the 3076 starts to get trumped up top.

Some of the blithering on this forum is getting out of hand.
Hey that's what I just said. Yah I saw that the borg efrs can use larger turbines and attain similar spool because of the lighter weight. Don't compare the EFR to the GT series though- compare them to the GTX series which are in general, bigger all around than the GT series.
Faeflora is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2011, 11:22 AM   #134
Murderator
iTrader: (76)
 
18psi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 36,175
Total Cats: 2,578
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Savington View Post
Since he didn't specifically state pump gas, we get to infer that he really meant race gas, E85, JP6, or No1 Diesel, right?



You're e-thugging the guy for a statement that is true in 95% of cases. Nobody's impressed.
I'm not e-thugging anyone. Stop getting your panties in a bunch so easily, holy ****. Since both you and I are using e85, and since with e85 knock is damn near non-existant til you get to insane pressure levels (and even then I'm not sure it will knock) I wanted to know if he meant overall or "just on pump gas" because that statement wouldn't be true with no knock, and if it was I wanted to hear an explanation.
18psi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2011, 12:20 PM   #135
Senior Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (7)
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Chicagoland
Posts: 1,362
Total Cats: 3
Default

Lets all love each other and get back on topic
jtothawhat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2011, 12:24 PM   #136
Murderator
iTrader: (76)
 
18psi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 36,175
Total Cats: 2,578
Default

So when is your EFR coming in/getting installed and did you opt for iwg/bov?
18psi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2011, 12:59 PM   #137
Senior Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (7)
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Chicagoland
Posts: 1,362
Total Cats: 3
Default

April I was told is the ETA, I will be running the IWG and BOV as well with a .92 A/R Twin Scroll housing.
jtothawhat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2011, 01:25 PM   #138
Elite Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 6,454
Total Cats: 80
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Savington View Post
Borg is running larger turbines, similar/smaller A/Rs, and relying on the wheel inertia to make up the difference (******* smart - big A/R for top-end flow, good engineering for response). The 3076 vs 7670 is perfectly valid, as the charts show = the Borg gets outspooled by a hair, but the 3076 starts to get trumped up top.
Indeed lighter wheel inertia helps with response once above the boost threshold. Great for a track car.

However for a street car, boost threshold RPM is important too; this is more of a function of the turbine and compressor aero characteristics than the inertia. Bigass turbines and compressors, if inefficient at the flowrates at lower RPM, will have a higher boost threshold RPM than smaller turbos, regardless of lighter wheel parts.
JasonC SBB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2011, 01:52 PM   #139
Senior Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (7)
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Chicagoland
Posts: 1,362
Total Cats: 3
Default

"Alright so i overlaid a couple of graphs, one from today and one from a while ago with the GTX. As i had found with the Medium canister, overlaying the GTX3076 to the EFR7670 actually showed the same response on the road. On the dyno it was worse.

Now that i have the high pressure actuator, i did a couple of road tests and check this out.
I had "Felt" the turbo reacting quicker and here is evidence of it.

Here are two runs overlaid. I tried overlaying RPM, TPS, or Boost to see how they compare. But i thought this one would work great to illustrate what i feel. I thought it was interesting how much later i hit full throttle, and how the EFR hit the same boost target at the same time.



The time frame is .5 seconds later that it was floored(sounds fast, but consider that whole run was about 1.9 seconds.... Then also the RPM difference was about 250. That is i floored the EFR at 250RPM later than the GTX, yet the EFR hit the boost at the same RPM!

More info tomorrow!"


This is a qoute from the subi forums on the 7670 vs GTX3076R which makes thing look a lot better for the EFR.
jtothawhat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2011, 01:52 PM   #140
Newb
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 12
Total Cats: 0
Default

Someone on another forum began a 6758 build for on a NC.

filphil is offline   Reply With Quote
 
 
Reply

Related Topics
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Project Gemini - Turbo Civic on the Cheap Full_Tilt_Boogie Build Threads 57 07-19-2017 05:11 PM
WTB MP62 (Hotside) (NB2) Rick02R WTB 3 01-03-2016 08:18 PM
Expected intake temps on the track? tazswing Race Prep 20 10-03-2015 12:04 PM
ISO 1.6 turbo cast iron manifold cale saurage DIY Turbo Discussion 16 10-01-2015 12:25 PM


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:16 AM.