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Old 09-11-2009, 01:43 AM   #1
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Default Critique this: MSM turbo setup for N/A NB

So I've been doing quite a bit of research on the subject. I'm no noob to boost, so the basics are all taken care of. No stupid "how much psiz can i run on dis' trubo" posts from me. What I want is competent criticism.

The goal is 200whp at 12:1 AFR, it's a daily driver with plenty of track time in the future planned. No standalones, no MS, no parallel MS. I need OBDII to work, which limits me (excluding parallel) to a piggyback solution. I know this is not ideal, and I am prepared to work around the shortcomings.

I'm thinking about this:

OEM MSM exhaust manifold (already have)
OEM MSM turbo (already have)
Begi MSM divorced downpipe, 3.0" exit flange, wideband port
Custom 3.0" cat-back
Corksport MSM FMIC
FM Voodoo magic black box of doom
Bipes timing controller (NA only? I'm not sure if this will work on the NB)
Halman MBC

I can tune on a wideband as well. What would you do differently?
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Old 09-11-2009, 10:08 AM   #2
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Power goal is not unreasonable but
-you'll be pushing that turbo pretty hard
-you'll want better engine management
-bipes won't work with the nb ignition triggers

Recommend you look into a laptop programmable parallel ecu situation. Xede will allow you to pass emissions.* I don't know if adaptronic is there or not yet--I know the cars are driving but I don't know if they've got all the CEL issues worked out yet. Other ecus could be custom wired in parallel, MS, Hydra, etc.


*I sometimes get a CEL from either aggressive timing or long duration in boost. To pass emissions, I reset the codes, 0 out the timing map and stay out of boost on the way to the emissions station. Have done this twice now without problem.
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Old 09-11-2009, 12:22 PM   #3
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I have what is pretty much the non-OEM version of that IHI turbo...and it's really pushing it close to 200whp.

Efficiency drops on it's face at the end of the powerband, so atleast you've got a good FMIC...the stock MSM unit is a joke, especially for the heat it will be putting out at higher flow rates.

The BEGi downpipe will help...but you will eventually want more boost and upgrade paths are limited with the that turbine housing.

Bandaids will be the real crippler though...you'll need real engine management before you need a bigger turbo.

200whp in a Miata is a blast though if you really see yourself being content.

I highly recommend you let Braineack make a parallel harness and build an MS for you. Cost effective, covers all the bases, gives you headroom as your setup grows.


If I've learned one thing through suspension, brake and turbo upgrades...do it once...do it right.
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Old 09-11-2009, 12:40 PM   #4
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FYI I made 210rwhp at 11psi with reletively hot Iat's so you can push the turbo more. I now am at 15psi with meth and a custom vmount and it deffinately feels like plenty more power. I just need to get to a damn dyno again. And im still on the stock ecu and my afrs hit 10's at redline

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Old 09-11-2009, 12:45 PM   #5
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Here's your MS...

https://www.miataturbo.net/forum/t38847/



Leatherface...like I said...above 10-11psi your IATs get hot fast.

I'm also looking at water/meth injection to get more out of it.

He deserved a word of warning however since it's not like turning the MBC on a T25...

EDIT:

Do'h....I'm also comparing 1.6L output levels to a 1.8L..and an MSM at that.

On MY particular vehicle the pressure ratio and volume flow rates required for 200whp are at the far right side of the map.
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Old 09-11-2009, 05:11 PM   #6
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There is no timing control (like Bipes ACU) on that list. So... there is no way you will make 200 whp on a stock ECU and voodoo box. There will be way too much engine knock. I strongly suggest you invest in a MS or Xede. When the Zoom3 is released, it could do it (up to 8 psi only though). However, nothing else will allow you to run in excess of 5-6 psi safely with no engine knock.

Secondly, I highly recommend that you let me port that turbo and inspect it for damage. The porting is necessary to decrease the boost creep. And I have yet to see a used MSM turbo with no damage. That does not mean it cannot be used, just may need to be fixed.
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Old 09-11-2009, 05:49 PM   #7
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Well the Bipes is on that list in my first post, but I've been lead to believe that it will not control the NB's timing. XEDE is $1600 off of your site, which will more than double the cost of the system to me. I've settled on 200whp and nothing more (if I ever do more power it will be in a few years, then with a built engine etc), I already have a 350-370whp DSM so I don't much need another monster. 200whp is enough for me to enjoy driving the car again. If FM is confident that the voodoo box will supply up to 180whp on their voodooII system, I don't understand why this is impossible. Sure timing is a bit of an issue, but there has to be a solution beyond going standalone.
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Old 09-14-2009, 07:40 AM   #8
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I'm not sure about an N/A motor, but I know the Mazdaspeed guys are pushing 200WHP with nothing more than an upgraded FMIC, Intake, DP, and Exhaust.

This is on a lower compression motor @ 10PSI though; your results may be a little off.

That said, save some money and use an eBay IC. You won't notice the difference.

I second those who are saying go parallel. There is no stock ECU that will be happy at those boost levels; even the Mazdaspeed ECU is horrid.

To be honest, though the Mazdaspeed setup IS cheap, it might be worth the money to sell what you have and go BEGi Shanghai. There is a reason the Mazdapeed stuff is cheap; it is pretty reliable (several people have over 150k miles on it), but it does not stack up to anything aftermarket without being ported and a new compressor wheel installed.
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Old 09-14-2009, 07:49 AM   #9
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I was in the same boat as you regarding using band aids and getting away with 200whp safely. I kept asking and asking and asking people to see if ANYONE thinks its a good idea or share their experience if they've done it. In the end I axed that stupid plan and went with an Adaptronic ems. Boy am I glad I did. Once all of us figured out the initial settings and worked out the kinks, the cars run strong, are a breaze to tune, and the ability to make more power is at our fingertips, not to mention the cars are running safe, smooth, and trouble free (for the most part).
Believe me, no matter which way you try to spin this, in the end band aids suck and are not worth the time or money.. PERIOD
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Old 09-14-2009, 09:39 AM   #10
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Speaking from an MSM owner perspective...the MSM turbo will easily support 200 or more HP, at least it does on the MSM and most others I know with MSM's that have modified them. I've been over 200 for a couple years with no issues. If you use the Begi SGDP, take Steph up on her offer to port the turbo, most (not all) MSM owners with SGDP have boost creep issues without a ported turbo. If this is about being on a budget, you could probably get an EMU for tuning. They can be had for cheap in ebay if you look around. It's not the best solution, but it would be inexpensive and it will do what you are looking to do. WIth the MSM, 300-320 CC injectors help a lot. The stock ECU will idle them fine and it will give you extra fueling over the stock injectors.
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Old 09-21-2009, 05:03 AM   #11
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Alright so I'll probably be going with an XEDE instead of a true bandaid. Yes it's not a full standalone but hey, if I can pass OBDII with it and I can tune it legitimately looks like that might be the best choice. In any case, my MSM turbo and mani showed up the other day, looking good with no shaft play at all, no hairline cracks anywhere, so I'm happy. In any case, I'm going to be doing my own oil and coolant lines so does anyone know the thread pitches and size of the oil feed, return, coolant feed, return? Going to go with a -4 oil feed and a -8 return, any foreseeable issues with that about of oil? Restrictor needed?
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Old 09-21-2009, 11:18 AM   #12
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Xede's not the greatest thing since sliced bread but worked well for me. Xede + some mildly sized injectors will be win.
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Old 09-21-2009, 04:00 PM   #13
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A restrictor may or might not be needed. Unfortunately, you probably will not know until you get the car up and running. The MSM is notorious for excess oil blow by, making a oil feed restrictor a good idea. But you are in a 2000 base car, not an MSM. So... just play it by ear or go with a -3 oil feed line.
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Old 09-21-2009, 05:59 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CobaltFire View Post
the Mazdaspeed guys are pushing 200WHP with nothing more than an upgraded FMIC, Intake, DP, and Exhaust.
On a dynojet, I recorded 213 rwhp after correction. That was stock (small!) IC, FM intake, Absurdflow turboback, and 10psi + creeping.
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Old 09-21-2009, 06:00 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saedrin View Post
Alright so I'll probably be going with an XEDE instead of a true bandaid. Yes it's not a full standalone but hey, if I can pass OBDII with it and I can tune it legitimately looks like that might be the best choice.
You can pass OBDII and fully tune on an MS-parallel for a LOT less money.
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Old 09-21-2009, 08:02 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben View Post
Xede's not the greatest thing since sliced bread but worked well for me. Xede + some mildly sized injectors will be win.
Quote:
Originally Posted by evank View Post
You can pass OBDII and fully tune on an MS-parallel for a LOT less money.
I'm liking the XEDE for the simplicity of install and the ease of use tbh. This is my daily and I don't like wiring things myself. I'm not incompetent I just don't enjoy it, patch harnesses are a godsend. Mind you I'm buying it used so the price difference, while still there, is not going to kill me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephanie Turner View Post
A restrictor may or might not be needed. Unfortunately, you probably will not know until you get the car up and running. The MSM is notorious for excess oil blow by, making a oil feed restrictor a good idea. But you are in a 2000 base car, not an MSM. So... just play it by ear or go with a -3 oil feed line.
Stephanie
Well if a -3 will work then I have no problem using that, as long as I don't run too little oil to it I'm not overly concerned, easier to limit than to wind up replacing the whole line.

Quote:
Originally Posted by evank View Post
On a dynojet, I recorded 213 rwhp after correction. That was stock (small!) IC, FM intake, Absurdflow turboback, and 10psi + creeping.
Now see this is making me feel better. I'll be on a FMIC with a 2.5 expanding to 3" turboback, running the XEDE and having an actual tune. 200whp shouldn't be hard at all then.

Still though does anyone know the threading on the oil inlet and the coolant ports for the MSM turbo? I know the coolant threading is larger than the oil feed, but I have nothing here to measure so I'm kinda lost without this info. Also, what shall I do about the return line? Looking at it today I see there's a flange (similar to my DSM's 16g) on the return side of the center section, any thoughts on an adapter than can bolt up to this and have a -8 outlet so I can run a -8 line to the oil pan?
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Old 09-21-2009, 08:25 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by evank View Post
You can pass OBDII and fully tune on an MS-parallel for a LOT less money.
Dude, not really. Building a MS1 from scratch + buying a NA CAS maybe is a little less than buying a used Xede, certainly not a "LOT" less. It certainly is much harder. If you've never built one, then you're looking at many days of work plus building the harness. The Xede is plug in and go.
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Old 09-21-2009, 10:53 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saedrin View Post
Now see this is making me feel better. I'll be on a FMIC with a 2.5 expanding to 3" turboback, running the XEDE and having an actual tune. 200whp shouldn't be hard at all then.
I didn't say it was safe or smart ... just that I did it.
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Old 09-21-2009, 10:54 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben View Post
Building a MS1 from scratch + buying a NA CAS maybe is a little less than buying a used Xede, certainly not a "LOT" less.
After tallying my MS1, NA CAS, random bits, etc., I paid around $700 and change. Xede is, what, $1,200? $1,500? That's a "lot" less for the MS.

Granted, it's not quite as simple.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben View Post
If you've never built one, then you're looking at many days of work plus building the harness.
The price I quoted was for a pre-built MS 3.57 from DIY. Although I was luckier than most newbs because of Paul's help.
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Old 09-21-2009, 11:49 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by evank View Post
After tallying my MS1, NA CAS, random bits, etc., I paid around $700 and change. Xede is, what, $1,200? $1,500? That's a "lot" less for the MS.

Granted, it's not quite as simple.



The price I quoted was for a pre-built MS 3.57 from DIY. Although I was luckier than most newbs because of Paul's help.
I've been offered $700 for a used XEDE with harness, 700-800 is what I've been seeing them go for used often as well. That's what I mean, it's not much cheaper when I go used, and it's quite a bit easier. I've already got another race car to fiddle with, no need to make this one as complicated.
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