Shooting for 200 whp, is my build gonna do it?
02-25-2021, 02:24 AM
#1
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Shooting for 200 whp, is my build gonna do it?
Hi all, planning my first turbo build. For context I have a stock 1997 (1.8L, manual) that I want to turbo to around 200 whp and keep fairly reliable as a daily driver. I want to keep AC and PS. I'm hoping you guys will be able to let me know if my build will get me to my hp goals and your experience with the parts I'm listing, especially if you have a similar build. That in mind, I'm on a budget, so I'm well aware many of these are not the optimal choices - I'm looking for optimal in my price range.
ECU - SpeedyEFI PNP Kit ($400)
Right now, SpeedyEFI doesn't have a PNP for the OBD-II NA8's (96-98), but I emailed them about a month ago and they said they should be listed on their website in the next few weeks. I imagine they'll be priced around their other PNP kits.
Wideband AFR - ($170)
Between this and the Innovate MTX-L Plus, I just like the way this one looks more. From what I've heard, people swear by both.
Header - Cast Ebay T25/T28 ($110)
While probably not the best flowing manifold, it is cast iron, and should be bulletproof. I think the flow will be fine for my level of boost, and the cast is a big plus to reliability.
Turbo - Enjuku SR20 "Replacement" ($400)
My budget is larger than the $100 churbos on ebay, but not quite Garrett GT2560r, so I think this fills a nice middle ground. I've seen a lot of people talk about using them, but the only one I've actually seen used is the one on TheCarPassionChannel's Broke & Boosted. His car was topping out at around 150-175 whp, but that was on stock injectors + some other things that were holding it back. My question to y'all is if the SR20 turbo will perform up to and maybe even over 200 whp.
Down pipe - Custom ($300-500)
I'm going to have my local exhaust shop fabricate me a down pipe. It will tie into a 2.5" straight pipe exhaust that I'm fabricating myself.
Injectors - RX8 Yellow Tops ($70)
These are 420cc injectors that plug right in to the Miata.
Intercooler - ($200-400)
I'm not quite sure how the turbo will fit and orient on the manifold, so intercooler configuration is dependent on that. I'm planning on something a bit larger, as this car will hopefully see some track days.
Thanks for getting this far into this post. I'm looking forward to hearing your thoughts, concerns, suggestions.
ECU - SpeedyEFI PNP Kit ($400)
Right now, SpeedyEFI doesn't have a PNP for the OBD-II NA8's (96-98), but I emailed them about a month ago and they said they should be listed on their website in the next few weeks. I imagine they'll be priced around their other PNP kits.
Wideband AFR - ($170)
Between this and the Innovate MTX-L Plus, I just like the way this one looks more. From what I've heard, people swear by both.
Header - Cast Ebay T25/T28 ($110)
While probably not the best flowing manifold, it is cast iron, and should be bulletproof. I think the flow will be fine for my level of boost, and the cast is a big plus to reliability.
Turbo - Enjuku SR20 "Replacement" ($400)
My budget is larger than the $100 churbos on ebay, but not quite Garrett GT2560r, so I think this fills a nice middle ground. I've seen a lot of people talk about using them, but the only one I've actually seen used is the one on TheCarPassionChannel's Broke & Boosted. His car was topping out at around 150-175 whp, but that was on stock injectors + some other things that were holding it back. My question to y'all is if the SR20 turbo will perform up to and maybe even over 200 whp.
Down pipe - Custom ($300-500)
I'm going to have my local exhaust shop fabricate me a down pipe. It will tie into a 2.5" straight pipe exhaust that I'm fabricating myself.
Injectors - RX8 Yellow Tops ($70)
These are 420cc injectors that plug right in to the Miata.
Intercooler - ($200-400)
I'm not quite sure how the turbo will fit and orient on the manifold, so intercooler configuration is dependent on that. I'm planning on something a bit larger, as this car will hopefully see some track days.
Thanks for getting this far into this post. I'm looking forward to hearing your thoughts, concerns, suggestions.
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02-25-2021, 08:58 AM
#2
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Don't forget a clutch. But basically, any reasonably put togethet turbo build will make 200rwhp no problem on these.
The only thing in that list I would watch out for is the RX8 injectors. The market was flooded with poorly performing knockoffs.
The only thing in that list I would watch out for is the RX8 injectors. The market was flooded with poorly performing knockoffs.
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02-25-2021, 10:13 AM
#3
Cpt. Slow
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Yeah, avoid the RX8s. I've tuned a few, they make nice popping and banging noises, but otherwise, you never know how bad a single cylinder is.
Try Flowforce's 640s. Theres even a set in the classifieds for a small savings: https://www.miataturbo.net/miata-par...ectors-104719/
I'd also try to save your pennies for either a kraken or FM setup. That manifold isn't terrible, but you've budgeted $600 total for manifold and an exhaust shop "fabricated" downpipe, and I'm very concerned for you.
Kraken's setup is only $680+ shipping, and I'd trust a downpipe an exhaust shop could make a lot more. https://kraken-mx5.eu/product/t25-tu...adapter-2-5-3/
Or add another $300 to get his 3" SS downpipe with flex joint and o2 bung. This is especially good advice if you plan on tracking this.
Try Flowforce's 640s. Theres even a set in the classifieds for a small savings: https://www.miataturbo.net/miata-par...ectors-104719/
I'd also try to save your pennies for either a kraken or FM setup. That manifold isn't terrible, but you've budgeted $600 total for manifold and an exhaust shop "fabricated" downpipe, and I'm very concerned for you.
Kraken's setup is only $680+ shipping, and I'd trust a downpipe an exhaust shop could make a lot more. https://kraken-mx5.eu/product/t25-tu...adapter-2-5-3/
Or add another $300 to get his 3" SS downpipe with flex joint and o2 bung. This is especially good advice if you plan on tracking this.
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02-25-2021, 11:34 AM
#6
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Location: Granbury Texas
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+1 to all of the above.
The Kraken stuff will not depreciate and may become more "valuable" if he shuts down (he's mentioned this).
I recently ordered a full kit as I was worried they might not be available 6 months from now.
Krakens manifolds and down pipes are "world class".
Force flow is the guy to talk with FIRST regarding injectors. He is a forum member.
Looks like all his customers are happy...
Another good source is MKTurbo for stuff. Probably the most "complete" budget kit.
Almost no negative posts and a bunch of happy people on here with MKTurbo stuff.
MKTurbo might be the "fastest, least head ache" way of going turbo.
MKTurbo includes full exhaust, all the way, and it's a nice full exhaust, no modification BS needed.
Both MKTurbo and Kraken can make enough power (with proper turbo) to bend the stock rods.
Starting out with manifolds, down pipes, exhaust that can handle 300+ Hp is the way to go even if your starting with a small turbo and staying under the "bend rods" point.
A good clutch is a REQUIREMENT. I like the SuperMiata clutches (another really good source for stuff)
Be sure to get their Q-max coolant reroute. It's the best on the market IMO.
If your radiator is starting to turn "brown" on the top tank replace ASAP.
If it's tan replace NOW. When the plastic ages it changes color and can shatter without warning...
All of the above will put you ABOVE the power requirements in your first post.
If I'm shooting for 200 hp I'll spec out 250-275 hp parts to have additional "head room".
Makes the initial 200 hp goal easy to hit...
Both the MKTurbo and Kraken stuff will hold 75-90% of their value over time.
If you have to bail out later you can get most of your investment back...
My suggestion is to add 50% to your budget and start out with something that can easily exceed your goals and avoid the problems/fabrication work that a "cheapest" build will create.
1-2K budgets are best left to folks that can do their own welding, have years of fabrication skills, and all the tools and the patience necessary for this type of build.
Do not look to YouTube for build advice, most of the YouTube stuff I've seen make many beginner mistakes.
I would never even attempt a start up on stock injectors. This mistake ALWAYS leads to "my engine build" videos that again make beginner mistakes...
The build threads here are a FAR better "template" for what you want to do.
The WAY is...
Test engine, hot compression and leak down, get a oil pressure reading from a mechanical gauge, both hot and cold.
Add bigger injectors, stand alone ECU and WBO2. Learn to tune, play with it NA to save engine initially. Use stock intake and exhaust crap right now.
Upgrade cooling system, new radiator, coolant reroute. Learn to properly control cooling system temp, control fans. You will make 2X+ the heat with the snail, make sure the cooling system can handle it.
Upgrade clutch, correct any drive line problems, Upgrade to some form of limited slip as you will need this if you don't already have this.
Test engine again, hot compression and leak down, if good...
Add turbo system, big exhaust, intercooler, and get with it.
After you get used to 200 HP you are probably going to want MORE. Start with stuff that can make 300 down the road.
If you have good access to E85 you will want to add this feature later, plan accordingly.
The Kraken stuff will not depreciate and may become more "valuable" if he shuts down (he's mentioned this).
I recently ordered a full kit as I was worried they might not be available 6 months from now.
Krakens manifolds and down pipes are "world class".
Force flow is the guy to talk with FIRST regarding injectors. He is a forum member.
Looks like all his customers are happy...
Another good source is MKTurbo for stuff. Probably the most "complete" budget kit.
Almost no negative posts and a bunch of happy people on here with MKTurbo stuff.
MKTurbo might be the "fastest, least head ache" way of going turbo.
MKTurbo includes full exhaust, all the way, and it's a nice full exhaust, no modification BS needed.
Both MKTurbo and Kraken can make enough power (with proper turbo) to bend the stock rods.
Starting out with manifolds, down pipes, exhaust that can handle 300+ Hp is the way to go even if your starting with a small turbo and staying under the "bend rods" point.
A good clutch is a REQUIREMENT. I like the SuperMiata clutches (another really good source for stuff)
Be sure to get their Q-max coolant reroute. It's the best on the market IMO.
If your radiator is starting to turn "brown" on the top tank replace ASAP.
If it's tan replace NOW. When the plastic ages it changes color and can shatter without warning...
All of the above will put you ABOVE the power requirements in your first post.
If I'm shooting for 200 hp I'll spec out 250-275 hp parts to have additional "head room".
Makes the initial 200 hp goal easy to hit...
Both the MKTurbo and Kraken stuff will hold 75-90% of their value over time.
If you have to bail out later you can get most of your investment back...
My suggestion is to add 50% to your budget and start out with something that can easily exceed your goals and avoid the problems/fabrication work that a "cheapest" build will create.
1-2K budgets are best left to folks that can do their own welding, have years of fabrication skills, and all the tools and the patience necessary for this type of build.
Do not look to YouTube for build advice, most of the YouTube stuff I've seen make many beginner mistakes.
I would never even attempt a start up on stock injectors. This mistake ALWAYS leads to "my engine build" videos that again make beginner mistakes...
The build threads here are a FAR better "template" for what you want to do.
The WAY is...
Test engine, hot compression and leak down, get a oil pressure reading from a mechanical gauge, both hot and cold.
Add bigger injectors, stand alone ECU and WBO2. Learn to tune, play with it NA to save engine initially. Use stock intake and exhaust crap right now.
Upgrade cooling system, new radiator, coolant reroute. Learn to properly control cooling system temp, control fans. You will make 2X+ the heat with the snail, make sure the cooling system can handle it.
Upgrade clutch, correct any drive line problems, Upgrade to some form of limited slip as you will need this if you don't already have this.
Test engine again, hot compression and leak down, if good...
Add turbo system, big exhaust, intercooler, and get with it.
After you get used to 200 HP you are probably going to want MORE. Start with stuff that can make 300 down the road.
If you have good access to E85 you will want to add this feature later, plan accordingly.
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02-25-2021, 01:30 PM
#7
A word on the Denso RX8 "yellow" 195500-4450 injectors. Denso stopped making them years ago. ebay is flooded with crap Chinese copies. If they are "new", don't buy them as they are most certainly fakes. We stopped selling these years ago when the supply of news ones dried up.
You want genuine Denso's then get them serviced by a reputable source. We use Mr Injector in ID https://www.mrinjector.us/
You want genuine Denso's then get them serviced by a reputable source. We use Mr Injector in ID https://www.mrinjector.us/
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02-25-2021, 02:45 PM
#8
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Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Montevallo, AL
Posts: 100
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100% agree with everything stated above. Just the info in @technicalninja 's post will get you all the way to making more than what you want.
The FlowForce 640s have treated me very well at 12-14psi on a smallish Td04 and have made tuning idle and lower load situations much easier than the old EV1s.
I ended up with the vibrant 12800 intercooler. My iats stay rock solid even after multiple pulls. Though you will have to fab up your own mounting solution.
A touch of anecdote on the downpipe, this may or may not be relevant to your situation. My td04 uses an almost one off proprietary exhaust flange and I have a rare unobtanium top mount has manifold so my only choice was to get one fabricated. My fab guy that I use for everything I can't do myself quoted me 3-4 hours and 110-130$ in parts so 450-500ish just for a solid 3" dp. He ran into all the issues that the guys who make kits have already solved. It ended up taking him over 10 hours of fab work to get back to the stock cat location. He's a bro and cut me a deal but not all fab guys are going to eat 6 hours of labor. I ended up giving him 700$ and my wife made him cookies but at that point I should have just gone with a Kraken setup and got a new turbo.
Spend the little bit extra on a quality kit now and skip all the headaches of trying to hack together something and jumping through hoops to make it work.
The FlowForce 640s have treated me very well at 12-14psi on a smallish Td04 and have made tuning idle and lower load situations much easier than the old EV1s.
I ended up with the vibrant 12800 intercooler. My iats stay rock solid even after multiple pulls. Though you will have to fab up your own mounting solution.
A touch of anecdote on the downpipe, this may or may not be relevant to your situation. My td04 uses an almost one off proprietary exhaust flange and I have a rare unobtanium top mount has manifold so my only choice was to get one fabricated. My fab guy that I use for everything I can't do myself quoted me 3-4 hours and 110-130$ in parts so 450-500ish just for a solid 3" dp. He ran into all the issues that the guys who make kits have already solved. It ended up taking him over 10 hours of fab work to get back to the stock cat location. He's a bro and cut me a deal but not all fab guys are going to eat 6 hours of labor. I ended up giving him 700$ and my wife made him cookies but at that point I should have just gone with a Kraken setup and got a new turbo.
Spend the little bit extra on a quality kit now and skip all the headaches of trying to hack together something and jumping through hoops to make it work.
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02-25-2021, 04:25 PM
#9
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Thank you guys so much for your advice. I do really like the price point on the MK Turbo kit, and that was going to be my first pick. My only concern was the lag on the T3. Most of what I've read is the SR20 turbo is almost instant, whereas most T3's have a noticeable lag. The Kraken kit looks great, and I think if I move forward with this build I'll use it. Thanks for the heads up on the injectors, I'll check out the FF 640s. Does anyone have the MK kit on a 1.8? How is the lag?
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02-25-2021, 05:00 PM
#10
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Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Montevallo, AL
Posts: 100
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I think the t3 that's in his kit is similar to a 2560. There are tons of dyno charts from other users. Theres tons more factors involved with "lag" than just how fast the turbo spools. The churbo that comes in the kit is pretty peppy. Is the transient response as good as a 6258 or equally sized bb turbo? Probably not, but everyone I've seen running it has been happy with it.
If you plan on getting a different setup in the future it will be much better to go with a t25 manifold, there are many more options/upgrades with that over the t3. However there are members here that are running upgraded t3 setups making good power.
If you do end up going with the MK kit make sure to port the waste gate on the turbo prior to assembling everything. Otherwise you will have boost creep issues.
If you plan on getting a different setup in the future it will be much better to go with a t25 manifold, there are many more options/upgrades with that over the t3. However there are members here that are running upgraded t3 setups making good power.
If you do end up going with the MK kit make sure to port the waste gate on the turbo prior to assembling everything. Otherwise you will have boost creep issues.
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02-25-2021, 05:27 PM
#11
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Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Granbury Texas
Posts: 668
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He's got multiple options for turbochargers.
Look in here for ideas, testing with different sizes, a progression of upgrades, more testing...
BIG FUN QUOTIENT!
http://www.miataturbo.net/dynos-time...ds-time-87318/
All MKTurbo
I'm envious of SOH.
He kicks *** with his Miata!
Look in here for ideas, testing with different sizes, a progression of upgrades, more testing...
BIG FUN QUOTIENT!
http://www.miataturbo.net/dynos-time...ds-time-87318/
All MKTurbo
I'm envious of SOH.
He kicks *** with his Miata!
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02-25-2021, 06:35 PM
#13
Boost Pope
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Header - Cast Ebay T25/T28 ($110)
While probably not the best flowing manifold, it is cast iron, and should be bulletproof. I think the flow will be fine for my level of boost, and the cast is a big plus to reliability.
While probably not the best flowing manifold, it is cast iron, and should be bulletproof. I think the flow will be fine for my level of boost, and the cast is a big plus to reliability.
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02-26-2021, 07:26 AM
#16
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Join Date: Oct 2017
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Thank you guys so much for your advice. I do really like the price point on the MK Turbo kit, and that was going to be my first pick. My only concern was the lag on the T3. Most of what I've read is the SR20 turbo is almost instant, whereas most T3's have a noticeable lag. The Kraken kit looks great, and I think if I move forward with this build I'll use it. Thanks for the heads up on the injectors, I'll check out the FF 640s. Does anyone have the MK kit on a 1.8? How is the lag?
Otherwise its REALLY worth spending the extra money on a solid name brand turbo. I ran several Sr20 t25's, a 2560, a handful of ebay t25 junk, and now a borgwarner 6258. The sr20 t25's are great for up to the 200hp barrier, the 2560 is an amazing all around little turbo for the price, but the EFR simply blows everything out of the water. The ebay junk was all very laggy and generally disappointing in every way despite the price.
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02-26-2021, 07:31 AM
#17
mkturbo.com
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Thank you guys so much for your advice. I do really like the price point on the MK Turbo kit, and that was going to be my first pick. My only concern was the lag on the T3. Most of what I've read is the SR20 turbo is almost instant, whereas most T3's have a noticeable lag. The Kraken kit looks great, and I think if I move forward with this build I'll use it. Thanks for the heads up on the injectors, I'll check out the FF 640s. Does anyone have the MK kit on a 1.8? How is the lag?
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02-26-2021, 08:49 AM
#18
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Join Date: Oct 2013
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Other option if you end up going Kraken is a Subaru TD04L-13T. Cheap and plentiful, instant spool, and will easilly hit 200rwhp. I am using mine on a 1.6, make 200rwhp with a tune I threw together at 10psi and make that 10psi by 3200rpm.
Being able to motor up to speed from putterin arround in 5th without shifting is pretty nice. But my car is 98% a street car/three season daily. Low end torqur is nice for that.
The MK kits are great. I have worked with one of the first ones sold and am sure they have only gotten even better.
The MK kits are great. I have worked with one of the first ones sold and am sure they have only gotten even better.
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02-26-2021, 11:53 PM
#19
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Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Sebring, FL
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I've had the MK kit for just about three years now. I am a incompetent mechanic. The MK kit bolted right on, everything fit and it was easy. I have ac and power steering too.
I've been at 200whp for over 20k with no complaints. I hit 10lbs of boost at 3800 rpm. I'm using a manual boost controller. Real fun.
I've been at 200whp for over 20k with no complaints. I hit 10lbs of boost at 3800 rpm. I'm using a manual boost controller. Real fun.
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