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Old 11-04-2007, 10:41 AM   #1
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Default DIY Advice for an old fart

Ok guys, I've been lurking in the background for quite some time.

Let me first state the obvious: "I'M MECHANICALLY CHALLENGED".

I own a 96M with 60,000 miles on it.

A few months ago I decided to go the turbo route and started to buy and (have a mechanic) install parts. A list of what has been installed so far:

1) Stronger ebay clutch
2) 2 1/2 midpipe and muffler also from ebay
3) FM springs
4) a set of Bilstein shocks
5) FCM Bumpstops
5) PWR radiator
6) 2/3 fan spals and shroud from FCM
7) K&N Filter
8) New timing belt and water pump (of course)
9) regular things such as: new spark plugs, synthetic oil, etc.
10) a set of 16" wheels (5kgs weight each, yeah!) and Khumo 205.50.16 tires.

Items bought and not installed yet:

1) Used Begi S5 Kit courtesy of Mikef85 (for details please read his thread in this same forum). Thanks Mike, you rock!
2) Walbro 255hph fuel pump
3) set of 550cc high impedance fuel injectors
4) used LC-1 wideband.

I think I'm finally at the EMS stage. I bought an AEM but due to unforeseen circumstances (it was for a 95, no one's fault) I had to send it back. I've been tempted all along to go with the DIY MS for 96-97 ever since I first read about it. As you all know, it is in the final development stages but one key aspect of my decision is the fact that I live overseas (sunny Caribbean all year round).

I do not intend to drag the car, only to surprise new rich guys on the street driving around 911s and the like.

I was thinking that my best option now would be to buy an AEM fic for 6 months or so (while you guys mechanically inclined take the bugs out of the new MS) and then finally buy the MS.

Here are my dumb questions:

I intend to reach 200whp with stock internals at about 7psi of boost.

1) What would be my best option for a no hassle setup for those first 6 months?
2) Bear in mind that I want to get to that horsepower level without having to tune the car everyday!

That is all I can think about now. I'm sure I forgot many things but that is old age for you

Now, flame away but do provide some helpful advice or
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Old 11-04-2007, 10:56 AM   #2
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A band aid setup will do just fine there if the FIC can run the 550's and you have the heat and timming sorted then i see no problem with your thinking? Why not have braineack make you a pnp MS he can do it esp if you dont need to pass smog i would think pretty hard about it. GL man
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Old 11-04-2007, 11:01 AM   #3
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The Walbro is unnecessary. A 255HP is too much even for folks who are using an AFPR on stock injectors. With large injectors and no AFPR, the stock fuel pump is perfectly adequate. The stock pump is capable of flowing plenty of volume- it has trouble only when asked to do so at 100 PSI.

The 550s are probably a bit much for your stated power goals. A set of 440cc injectors is more than adequate for the purpose of 225 HP, and while the 550s will work, you may get slightly better idle performance if you can trade them for something in the 440-460 range.
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Old 11-04-2007, 11:07 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by magnamx-5 View Post
A band aid setup will do just fine there if the FIC can run the 550's and you have the heat and timming sorted then i see no problem with your thinking? Why not have braineack make you a pnp MS he can do it esp if you dont need to pass smog i would think pretty hard about it. GL man
The thing is: can the FIC run 550's? and about the heat: that is one of the issues I'm facing. I've read and reread the coolant reroute thread and I still don't get it. I want to do that but I get conflicting advice on that one too

BTW Magna kudos to you and your WI thread! that's one I'll end up doing some day. I'd love to see my T3 really screaming some day!
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Old 11-04-2007, 11:10 AM   #5
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the F/IC is supposed to be able to run 550s. Only a few members here are running them, as they are so new, so I'm not sure what they are doing with them yet.

although for 200rwhp, they are almost overkill...
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Old 11-04-2007, 11:15 AM   #6
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The Walbro is unnecessary. A 255HP is too much even for folks who are using an AFPR on stock injectors. With large injectors and no AFPR, the stock fuel pump is perfectly adequate. The stock pump is capable of flowing plenty of volume- it has trouble only when asked to do so at 100 PSI.

The 550s are probably a bit much for your stated power goals. A set of 440cc injectors is more than adequate for the purpose of 225 HP, and while the 550s will work, you may get slightly better idle performance if you can trade them for something in the 440-460 range.
**** Joe, I already got screwed on the price of the 550cc injectors and the pump. And these ******* are brand spanking new I stated above that my ultimate goal is to go with a standalone. I'm just too chicken to do it now plus those things are pricey!

About the 550ccs; I still have 2 RC 550cc injectors sitting at my house just for not reading carefully on EBAY

I've also read many of your posts and got to say I'm impressed with your knowledge of these matters so I'm not taking your suggestions lightly. The thing is this FI issue piles on expenses pretty quickly. COŅO!!!!!!!!!!!!. My wife is going to end up throwing me out the window of our apartment one of these days and I'm not going to be able to even taste how FI feels if I keep this **** up!
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Old 11-04-2007, 11:18 AM   #7
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thank you spaniard i think you will do fine. By cooling i meant IC etc at 200-250whp the stock cooling system works perfectly fine it is only on higher hp car you would need to worry about a reroute etc.
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Old 11-04-2007, 11:20 AM   #8
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the F/IC is supposed to be able to run 550s. Only a few members here are running them, as they are so new, so I'm not sure what they are doing with them yet.

although for 200rwhp, they are almost overkill...
Guys, don't tell my wife but this to me is an ongoing (and never ending) process. I know that next year my car is getting stronger internals (Wiseco pistons and some new rods). My local tuner had (until 3 weeks ago when he sold it to a customer) an EVO VI with 2 550cc fuel pumps, 1,000cc injectors and much more making over 500whp and he had to take me for a ride in it! **** him, that alone makes my final goal to go over 300whp!
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Old 11-04-2007, 11:24 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by magnamx-5 View Post
thank you spaniard i think you will do fine. By cooling i meant IC etc at 200-250whp the stock cooling system works perfectly fine it is only on higher hp car you would need to worry about a reroute etc.
Yeah, Mike was kind enough to sell me his HUGE Begi intercooler. I got that thing this week and it really looks sick!

About the cooling system; our year round weather goes from 80 in the winter to 100 in the summer. About 1 month ago the water hose to my car's cockpit heater broke and right now I'm driving around with 2 rubber caps sealing that part of the cooling system. My tuner says I should fix that.
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Old 11-04-2007, 11:28 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by Joe Perez View Post
The Walbro is unnecessary. A 255HP is too much even for folks who are using an AFPR on stock injectors. With large injectors and no AFPR, the stock fuel pump is perfectly adequate. The stock pump is capable of flowing plenty of volume- it has trouble only when asked to do so at 100 PSI.

The 550s are probably a bit much for your stated power goals. A set of 440cc injectors is more than adequate for the purpose of 225 HP, and while the 550s will work, you may get slightly better idle performance if you can trade them for something in the 440-460 range.
Guys, Joe statement here is one of the things in the back of my mind for a long time. I'm going to have idling issues if I use what I already bought with a piggyback? And another thing, would I be best just going with no EMS whatsoever for the time being?
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Old 11-04-2007, 11:32 AM   #11
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If you got a solid AFPR like the aeromotive then you would have no problem keeping a 255 under control. Not to say it is the recommended route, but since you have already bought the parts....you can make them work.
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Old 11-04-2007, 11:37 AM   #12
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COŅO!!!!!!!!!!!!. My wife is going to end up throwing me out the window of our apartment one of these days and I'm not going to be able to even taste how FI feels if I keep this **** up!
Well, I guess we tolerate vulgarity in English, so why not in Spanish.

Seriously though. The 550cc injectors will work, I just meant that if you had the option available, 440s would be a slightly better choice.

Injector sizing is always something of a compromise. The generally accepted rule is that we want to pick the smallest injector that will deliver adequate fuel without going over 80 to 90% duty cycle at peak load. The reason for this has to do with the opposite extreme- idle. All else being equal, it is difficult to precisely control the "on" time of an injector at very short suty cycles. Actually, it's more accurate to speak in time (ms) rather than DC (%) at this point. Trying to get an injector to open for exactly 1 millisecond is much harder than commanding it to open for 5 milliseconds. For one thing, the "margin of error" (lag time, manufacturing tolerances, etc) is a much smaller part of the overall equation at longer durations.

However, as the size of the injector increases, the requirement for its "on" time at low loads decreases. A 550cc injector is more than twice as large as the stock injector, and thus the "on" time at idle will be less than half as much. This is why automakers have so many different and oddly sized injectors, rather than standardizing on just a few- the injector for any particular car is matched to the application.

I'm not trying to scare you, and again the 550s will work. The only real downside is that the engine may idle just a bit more roughly than it would otherwise, and the emissions at idle and low load may be slightly higher. I don't know if emissions (smog) inspection is part of the vehicle registration requirement in the Dominican Republic, although here in the US it is a major consideration, particularly for those of us who live in California, or in some of the northeastern states- the rules are very strict in these areas concerning automobile emissions. I suppose some of us tend to be overly conservative as a result of living under these rules for so long.
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Old 11-04-2007, 11:48 AM   #13
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The type of injectors makes a difference as well. I'm running 550cc high impedance denso injectors from an RX7 in my car using megasquirt. I'm seeing 45% duty cycle at 8 psi. I plan to run more like 15 psi with a different turbo, thus the reason why i got the 550s.
Megasquirts standard resolution will not idle these injectors at anything over 12:1 AFR. Any leaner than that and it oscillates like crazy and is just an outright headache.
So my compromise is having large enough injectors but i'm plagued with smelling fuel at idle.
If you were to get low impedance injectors or maybe even just the newer style RC injectors you could get a leaner idle in my situation. Low impedance injectors can be run at lower PWs without problems. Others on the board using MS that run 550s can get their car to idle more around 13.8-14.0 for some reason.

As for a radiator, check out coolradiator.com and then hit up ebay as well. CR is selling some quality all aluminum radiators for less than the PWR and ebay is supposedly marketing some cheaper alum race radiators as well. There are atleast 2 current threads on them. Within the next week we should see what kind of quality these ebay retailers are pushing.
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Old 11-04-2007, 11:49 AM   #14
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My car with MS idled 550s from an rx7 at a perfect 14:1afr before I blew the motor last winter.
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Old 11-04-2007, 11:50 AM   #15
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that is cuase our AIC's arent fucked up by the retard who owned the car before we did. It makes a difference chad.
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Old 11-04-2007, 11:50 AM   #16
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My car idled 550s from an rx7 at a perfect 14:1afr before I blew the motor last winter.
Lucky bastard.

I still don't understand how an IAC valve can be fucked up if the car idles perfect just at a rich AFR. Doesn't the IAC just bypass air into the intake tract to keep the car running? If I was able to crank mine down(can't with the stripped adjustment screw) what would happen? I've never messed with one.
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Old 11-04-2007, 11:51 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Joe Perez View Post
Well, I guess we tolerate vulgarity in English, so why not in Spanish.

Seriously though. The 550cc injectors will work, I just meant that if you had the option available, 440s would be a slightly better choice.

Injector sizing is always something of a compromise. The generally accepted rule is that we want to pick the smallest injector that will deliver adequate fuel without going over 80 to 90% duty cycle at peak load. The reason for this has to do with the opposite extreme- idle. All else being equal, it is difficult to precisely control the "on" time of an injector at very short suty cycles. Actually, it's more accurate to speak in time (ms) rather than DC (%) at this point. Trying to get an injector to open for exactly 1 millisecond is much harder than commanding it to open for 5 milliseconds. For one thing, the "margin of error" (lag time, manufacturing tolerances, etc) is a much smaller part of the overall equation at longer durations.

However, as the size of the injector increases, the requirement for its "on" time at low loads decreases. A 550cc injector is more than twice as large as the stock injector, and thus the "on" time at idle will be less than half as much. This is why automakers have so many different and oddly sized injectors, rather than standardizing on just a few- the injector for any particular car is matched to the application.

I'm not trying to scare you, and again the 550s will work. The only real downside is that the engine may idle just a bit more roughly than it would otherwise, and the emissions at idle and low load may be slightly higher. I don't know if emissions (smog) inspection is part of the vehicle registration requirement in the Dominican Republic, although here in the US it is a major consideration, particularly for those of us who live in California, or in some of the northeastern states- the rules are very strict in these areas concerning automobile emissions. I suppose some of us tend to be overly conservative as a result of living under these rules for so long.
I love when someone explains things in such a way as to allow simpletons like me to understand it. Got the injectors explanation; here are more questions: if I go with the stock fuel pump and 440cc injectors for the time being, what would be my HP limit? BTW, no smog in these parts. I just got a digital camera (the first one ever hehe) and if I learn how to use it I intend to post some local vehicle pics. I know that thread is going to be a hoot! You guys have never seen live animals on the top of any vehicle yet!

The more I think about your advice the better if sounds. My wallet is also starting to hate you!

BTW, in Spain (from where I'm for originally) Coņo is not a bad word.

Thanks man!
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Old 11-04-2007, 11:59 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by cjernigan View Post
The type of injectors makes a difference as well. I'm running 550cc high impedance denso injectors from an RX7 in my car using megasquirt. I'm seeing 45% duty cycle at 8 psi. I plan to run more like 15 psi with a different turbo, thus the reason why i got the 550s.
Megasquirts standard resolution will not idle these injectors at anything over 12:1 AFR. Any leaner than that and it oscillates like crazy and is just an outright headache.
So my compromise is having large enough injectors but i'm plagued with smelling fuel at idle.
If you were to get low impedance injectors or maybe even just the newer style RC injectors you could get a leaner idle in my situation. Low impedance injectors can be run at lower PWs without problems. Others on the board using MS that run 550s can get their car to idle more around 13.8-14.0 for some reason.

As for a radiator, check out coolradiator.com and then hit up ebay as well. CR is selling some quality all aluminum radiators for less than the PWR and ebay is supposedly marketing some cheaper alum race radiators as well. There are atleast 2 current threads on them. Within the next week we should see what kind of quality these ebay retailers are pushing.
But if I go with low impedance injectors I read somewhere that I have to hook up some kind of resistors. (I can't find the icon for embarrassment) what are PWs? (I'm going to end up changing my sig to Forrest Gump). BTW, I knew I first posted I was going to forget things, oops, I have a PWR installed.
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Old 11-04-2007, 11:59 AM   #19
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440's at 45 psi are good for 440/10.5/.6= 69 bhp per injector or *4= 289 bhp or 240 or so whp this is with a very conservative .6 bsfc most of us run a little less than that and some of us even dip down into the .5 range. So you should have plenty of headway for a good while with those. FWIW Ben made his 250 whp on a 1.6 with 460's and a stockish fuel system.\

PW is puslewidth or injector on time. kind of like Duty cycle but in miliseconds of ontime instaed.
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Old 11-04-2007, 12:12 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by magnamx-5 View Post
440's at 45 psi are good for 440/10.5/.6= 69 bhp per injector or *4= 289 bhp or 240 or so whp this is with a very conservative .6 bsfc most of us run a little less than that and some of us even dip down into the .5 range. So you should have plenty of headway for a good while with those. FWIW Ben made his 250 whp on a 1.6 with 460's and a stockish fuel system.\

PW is puslewidth or injector on time. kind of like Duty cycle but in miliseconds of ontime instaed.
You guys rock!!!!!!!!

I'm even surprised that I have not gotten flamed yet! You are going to be screwed because at the stage I'm at right now I'm going to be busting your *****!:gay:

Let me give you a sample of things I will need advice with in the coming weeks:

1) Install
2) tune
3) Issues I will be facing in both cases

Thanks guys!!!!!!!!!
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