Ebay Disco Potato - Miata Turbo Forum - Boost cars, acquire cats.

Welcome to Miataturbo.net   Members
 


DIY Turbo Discussion greddy on a 1.8? homebrew kit?

Reply
 
 
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 11-10-2010, 05:39 PM   #1
Elite Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 6,454
Total Cats: 80
Default Ebay Disco Potato

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...em=#vi-content

Because it doesn't say "Garrett" anywhere in the ad, it must be a Chinacharger .. ?
JasonC SBB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-10-2010, 05:56 PM   #2
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: onion city,ca
Posts: 428
Total Cats: 1
Default

this is a conspiracy. that 28rs is even worse than mine. 49mm compressor wheel. wot?

edit: i wonder if they got the numbers switched between hot and cold side.
jasonb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-10-2010, 05:56 PM   #3
Supporting Vendor
iTrader: (31)
 
Savington's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Sunnyvale, CA
Posts: 14,370
Total Cats: 1,332
Default

Yeah, among other clues.

-no standard Garrett markings on the compressor housing
-completely different compressor housing and wheel specs, including a full 11mm of discrepancy between a real Garrett 2860RS and that turbo.
-Garrett does not offer a T25-style 5-bolt outlet turbine housing in a .63 A/R configuration

That turbo isn't even remotely close to a 2860RS in dimension.

Chinese turbos **** me off. Not only do they not advertise or name the turbos with any sort of rhyme or reason, but the turbos that are halfway close to genuine turbos don't perform nearly as well as genuine units do. I cannot understand why folks will spend thousands and thousands on manifold, fueling, ECU, intercooler, clutch, radiator, suspension, brake, etc. upgrades, only to cheap out on the turbo itself and sacrifice a huge amount of performance in the process.
Savington is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-10-2010, 11:27 PM   #4
Senior Member
iTrader: (2)
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: North Cackalackey
Posts: 716
Total Cats: 2
Default

Confused on what this **** really is? Dual ball bearings and than it said journal bearings????? Piece anyways buy domestic or name brand
musanovic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-11-2010, 12:21 AM   #5
mkturbo.com
iTrader: (24)
 
shuiend's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Charleston SC
Posts: 13,780
Total Cats: 1,106
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Savington View Post
Chinese turbos **** me off. Not only do they not advertise or name the turbos with any sort of rhyme or reason, but the turbos that are halfway close to genuine turbos don't perform nearly as well as genuine units do. I cannot understand why folks will spend thousands and thousands on manifold, fueling, ECU, intercooler, clutch, radiator, suspension, brake, etc. upgrades, only to cheap out on the turbo itself and sacrifice a huge amount of performance in the process.
It comes down to when I had funds available in my case. With just building a motor I am broke. I knew it would be a waste to run my GT2554 on the built motor because I would still max out at 240hp. A 300$ Chinese turbo was something I could swing for the time being instead of the $1200 for a genuine Garrett. When funds are available I will upgrade to a real GT2871 and an Absurdflow setup.
shuiend is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-11-2010, 01:08 AM   #6
Murderator
iTrader: (76)
 
18psi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 36,199
Total Cats: 2,584
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Savington View Post

Chinese turbos **** me off. Not only do they not advertise or name the turbos with any sort of rhyme or reason, but the turbos that are halfway close to genuine turbos don't perform nearly as well as genuine units do. I cannot understand why folks will spend thousands and thousands on manifold, fueling, ECU, intercooler, clutch, radiator, suspension, brake, etc. upgrades, only to cheap out on the turbo itself and sacrifice a huge amount of performance in the process.
Same reason you threw racelands onto your track rental: they're cheap, actually work (obviously not as well, and obviously no one knows for how long yet), and you just want to know "what the fuss is about".

I would not say huge amount of power difference. 80% or so compared to genuine, for 30% of the cost.
They're really not that bad at all.


Now don't get me wrong, money no object I'd take the genuine over the china every day, but money IS an object.

Last edited by 18psi; 11-11-2010 at 01:41 AM.
18psi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-11-2010, 01:52 AM   #7
Supporting Vendor
iTrader: (31)
 
Savington's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Sunnyvale, CA
Posts: 14,370
Total Cats: 1,332
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 18psi View Post
Same reason you threw racelands onto your track rental: they're cheap, actually work (obviously not as well, and obviously no one knows for how long yet), and you just want to know "what the fuss is about".
There are two fundamental differences between us running Ricelands and the proliferation of Chinese turbos.

1. Cost. Ricelands cost $300, whereas the suspension we intend on upgrading to (Xida Clubsports) is about $1800. Factor of 6x. If Garrett CHRAs were $1800, I could see more folks griping about it, but you can find a used Garrett for under a thousand bucks, and even brand new they are under $1200. Suddenly that 6x is 3x - if Racelands cost $600 we wouldn't have even considered buying them.

Not only is it the cost of the unit, but it's the cost of the supporting mods. How much money have you spent in ECU upgrades, fuel injectors and pumps and rails, clutches, transmissions, motor internals, manifold and downpipe upgrades, gauges and monitoring equipment, etc. only to skimp on the actual turbo itself? You say that it's 80% of the benefit for 30% of the cost, but that just isn't true: If you skimp and scrimp and assemble an entire turbo setup, including a clutch, radiator, ECU and wideband, etc. for $3k, and save $600 on the turbo, you've saved yourself 20%. If you've bought quality parts, invested in a built motor, etc and you have $5000 or $6000, suddenly the $600 you save is only 10%, and you're taking a 20% hit in performance - and suddenly things aren't so rosy.

The performance loss is fairly significant, IMO. Railz is the first person to break 300whp using a "2870", and he only ended up making 270tq at 20psi. There are two or three others with Churbos creating 20+psi in the intake manifold, and none of them are doing 300whp. I make 295tq at 17psi with a genuine Garrett - at 20psi I would likely make 315-320tq. Who else here would spend $600 today to pick up 40ft.lbs of midrange torque on their setup - guaranteed? If I offered a group buy to turbo customers, offering 40tq in the midrange for that kind of money, I'd be a very rich man.

2. Expectation of performance/Intention to upgrade. We never intended on running the Racelands for more than an event or two - we expected Xida Clubsports to be on the market for July 2010, and we assembled the rental in June so we needed a stopgap measure. The Ricelands have served the intended purpose - they let us shake the car down, set some baseline numbers, and ensure that the car was prepped and ready for use as a reliable trackday car. We never intended to use them for a long period of time, and we always intended to upgrade. If folks buy Chinese turbos to do R&D on a manifold while waiting for the GTX3071R, then that's one thing, but you (18psi) and I both know that's not why people buy them. The expectation is that they will perform the same or similar to a genuine Garrett - I had this expectation before I saw half a dozen dyno charts over the last year that presented direct evidence to the contrary. This expectation is propagated by the sales tactics of the people that sell these things - that eBay listing is a perfect example. 47mm compressor wheel on a 2860RS, eh? 350hp capable? I'd be stunned if you could break 200 on it.

I can understand the demand for cheap turbos for folks who are stealing the handicap rail out of a McDonalds bathroom and using it for their EWG dump tube, but when you've got a few thousand bucks worth of quality hardware under the hood, I couldn't see hindering myself with a sub-par snail.
Savington is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-11-2010, 01:56 AM   #8
Murderator
iTrader: (76)
 
18psi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 36,199
Total Cats: 2,584
Default

When (or if) this one ***** the bed I'm going genuine. No doubt about it

And with me it really wasn't about the money. You know my setup, it isn't exactly a 800 dollar setup put together in a dumpster. For me it was about "the fuss" lol. I'll be strapping it to a dyno some time early spring for a solid tune at 18psi or so. If it doesn't perform as I want it to (and it probably won't), I'll have no problem ditching it for a "real" turbo.


And I'm not knocking you in any way about running the ricelands man. I'm actually kinda excited/thrilled you did. Now I can say I'm running the same coilovers on my car as TrackSpeedEngineering did on their race car lolol just kidding of course
18psi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-11-2010, 01:57 AM   #9
meatbag
iTrader: (50)
 
gospeed81's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 7,357
Total Cats: 26
Default

I dunno.

I see your point...but you're talking about a part that is easily removed, that people like to upgrade/change/experiment with, and that is more often viewed as a service life item value-wise as opposed to an efficiency base.

Most of us have so many other factors to optimize in our setups that we will not miss the difference until we've upgrade exhaust, injectors, tuned properly and such. Also, several of us are on the wrong part of the compressor map due to poor turbo size matching anyhow.

Now...once you've tuned well, made a no-compromises setup, tuned again, and found the right frame and compressor for your goals...then you're an idiot if you're still running a knock off and losing that last 10%.
gospeed81 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-11-2010, 02:12 AM   #10
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: onion city,ca
Posts: 428
Total Cats: 1
Default

philosophically i get where sav is coming from. its true. but, this is mt, and if the chinese want to commoditize turbo's thats good for us. they will suck for a while, sure, but hopefully at some point they will become viable. options is good.
jasonb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-11-2010, 02:18 AM   #11
Murderator
iTrader: (76)
 
18psi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 36,199
Total Cats: 2,584
Default

look back 3 years. chineese turbos were literally glued together.

now they not only WORK, but produce power, and on average last AT LEAST a couple years if not more. This is very big progress. At this rate in a couple years we'll have even better turbos that make even closer to genuine turbo power if not same altogether.

We shall see.
18psi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-11-2010, 02:22 AM   #12
Elite Member
iTrader: (17)
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 2,831
Total Cats: 0
Default

arnt the quality of Garrett turbos going down hill?

i remember reading a long *** thread about them getting more shitty and at the same time getting slightly more exspensive?
WonTon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-11-2010, 02:33 AM   #13
Murderator
iTrader: (76)
 
18psi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 36,199
Total Cats: 2,584
Default

/\ That thread made its rounds on just about every forum.

There's no REAL proof (at least that I can find) to confirm OR deny those claims. So its kinda hard to say either way
18psi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-11-2010, 02:46 AM   #14
Elite Member
iTrader: (17)
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 2,831
Total Cats: 0
Default

This is the only forum im regularly on so i didnt know it got whored around that much.


as far as comparisons between china chargers and garretts....

the first turbo i put on my 96 was one of the 2854 hybrid chinachargers from BEGI then not to long after putting it on i had problems with it burning oil. i pulled it off and replaced it with a Garrett 2560 and there was no comparrison. the 2560 spooled so much smoother and much more quickly that the hybrid.

i dont know what the measurments of the hybrid are compared to a 2560. by visual comparison the hybrid was a hell of alot smaller than the garrett.
WonTon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-11-2010, 11:12 AM   #15
mkturbo.com
iTrader: (24)
 
shuiend's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Charleston SC
Posts: 13,780
Total Cats: 1,106
Default

FWIW I am only speaking for myself in this response.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Savington View Post
There are two fundamental differences between us running Ricelands and the proliferation of Chinese turbos.

1. Cost. Ricelands cost $300, whereas the suspension we intend on upgrading to (Xida Clubsports) is about $1800. Factor of 6x. If Garrett CHRAs were $1800, I could see more folks griping about it, but you can find a used Garrett for under a thousand bucks, and even brand new they are under $1200. Suddenly that 6x is 3x - if Racelands cost $600 we wouldn't have even considered buying them.

Not only is it the cost of the unit, but it's the cost of the supporting mods. How much money have you spent in ECU upgrades, fuel injectors and pumps and rails, clutches, transmissions, motor internals, manifold and downpipe upgrades, gauges and monitoring equipment, etc. only to skimp on the actual turbo itself? You say that it's 80% of the benefit for 30% of the cost, but that just isn't true: If you skimp and scrimp and assemble an entire turbo setup, including a clutch, radiator, ECU and wideband, etc. for $3k, and save $600 on the turbo, you've saved yourself 20%. If you've bought quality parts, invested in a built motor, etc and you have $5000 or $6000, suddenly the $600 you save is only 10%, and you're taking a 20% hit in performance - and suddenly things aren't so rosy.

The performance loss is fairly significant, IMO. Railz is the first person to break 300whp using a "2870", and he only ended up making 270tq at 20psi. There are two or three others with Churbos creating 20+psi in the intake manifold, and none of them are doing 300whp. I make 295tq at 17psi with a genuine Garrett - at 20psi I would likely make 315-320tq. Who else here would spend $600 today to pick up 40ft.lbs of midrange torque on their setup - guaranteed? If I offered a group buy to turbo customers, offering 40tq in the midrange for that kind of money, I'd be a very rich man.
My Chinese 2870 cost me $300 shipped to my door. A new GT2871 is $1291 + shipping from ATP. So it is 4x the cost of the Chinese turbo initially. That to me is a large chunk of change in one spending. I also plan on going with V-Bands in the future so they I would have to spend another $350 to buy to buy the Tial housing. Making the total cost 5x what the Chinese Turbo is. If I buy they turbo with the V-Band housing it is $1391 up front. So while we might spend a lot on everything together, adding in an extra grand all of a sudden is something some of us just cant afford at once.

I will also agree that the performance loss is something that has to be taken in acount. But I do not belive it is worth 4x the price to get an extra 40ft/lbs. At least not right now. When I have the money yes, but when I was broke in the middle of an engine build it just was not happening.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Savington View Post
2. Expectation of performance/Intention to upgrade. We never intended on running the Racelands for more than an event or two - we expected Xida Clubsports to be on the market for July 2010, and we assembled the rental in June so we needed a stopgap measure. The Ricelands have served the intended purpose - they let us shake the car down, set some baseline numbers, and ensure that the car was prepped and ready for use as a reliable trackday car. We never intended to use them for a long period of time, and we always intended to upgrade. If folks buy Chinese turbos to do R&D on a manifold while waiting for the GTX3071R, then that's one thing, but you (18psi) and I both know that's not why people buy them. The expectation is that they will perform the same or similar to a genuine Garrett - I had this expectation before I saw half a dozen dyno charts over the last year that presented direct evidence to the contrary. This expectation is propagated by the sales tactics of the people that sell these things - that eBay listing is a perfect example. 47mm compressor wheel on a 2860RS, eh? 350hp capable? I'd be stunned if you could break 200 on it.
I honestly hope to not be running my Chinese Turbo for more then maybe a year. It was simply a cheap turbo to hold me over until I could afford to go to V-Bands. I know some people never plan on upgrading and that is their loss.
shuiend is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-11-2010, 01:00 PM   #16
Elite Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Victoria, BC
Posts: 2,322
Total Cats: 12
Default

Be careful with the china ball bearings. That turbo looks just like my OBX GT28R ball bearing turbo, and it lasted 5 minutes before the bearings took a dump.
dustinb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-11-2010, 04:16 PM   #17
Elite Member
iTrader: (30)
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Va Beach
Posts: 7,282
Total Cats: 0
Default

I made 298/296 on a Mustang dyno with the China 2870. Add 12% for dynojet numbers and I was at 333/331. Peak boost was 25 psi. And oh yea, this was with a lil 1.6 and before the Honda intake manifold.
__________________
Best Car Insurance | Auto Protection Today | FREE Trade-In Quote
levnubhin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-11-2010, 04:27 PM   #18
Elite Member
iTrader: (30)
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Va Beach
Posts: 7,282
Total Cats: 0
Default

I think it's also worth mentioning that that turbo I used is still alive with about 10k on it. In fact we just put about 2000 miles on it and beat the hell out of it at the gap.
__________________
Best Car Insurance | Auto Protection Today | FREE Trade-In Quote
levnubhin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2010, 06:24 AM   #19
Newb
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 17
Total Cats: 1
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by WonTon View Post
arnt the quality of Garrett turbos going down hill?

i remember reading a long *** thread about them getting more shitty and at the same time getting slightly more exspensive?
Cos their prob assembled in china now too
rxmx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2010, 07:30 AM   #20
Elite Member
iTrader: (8)
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Severn, MD
Posts: 1,927
Total Cats: 5
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Savington View Post
I cannot understand why folks will spend thousands and thousands on manifold, fueling, ECU, intercooler, clutch, radiator, suspension, brake, etc. upgrades, only to cheap out on the turbo itself and sacrifice a huge amount of performance in the process.
'Cause Bell started selling them and they can do no wrong?
fmowry is offline   Reply With Quote
 
 
Reply

Related Topics
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Project Gemini - Turbo Civic on the Cheap Full_Tilt_Boogie Build Threads 59 12-15-2017 09:00 PM
NEW-Wiseco Piston, K1 Rods, Supertech Valves & Spring/Retainer, TB&C pedals Rudes333 Miata parts for sale/trade 17 11-05-2015 02:16 PM
Back to Stock Part Out!! Turbo Parts, MS2 Enhanced 01-05, Suspension, and MOAR! StratoBlue1109 Miata parts for sale/trade 16 10-02-2015 10:39 AM
"Chimney Ethanol" E100 MiataGarage Engine Performance 5 09-30-2015 12:04 AM
Miata new person and a what's it worth! Model192 Meet and Greet 16 09-29-2015 09:50 PM


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:01 PM.