Is the EFR6258 too much for stock engine? - Page 3 - Miata Turbo Forum - Boost cars, acquire cats.

Welcome to Miataturbo.net   Members
 


DIY Turbo Discussion greddy on a 1.8? homebrew kit?

Reply
 
 
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 08-28-2014, 01:17 PM   #41
Elite Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 6,454
Total Cats: 80
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leafy View Post
rpm is a terrible unit for spool, miliseconds is much better. Over 4k aint nothing going to spool faster than an EFR I dont care how small it is.
What are you basing that statement on? Have you driven a 2554?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leafy View Post
Look as his data again, 2554 was at 2k and 2.5k the rest were at 2.5k and 3k. Who cares about making boost down there anyways? You've never using that boost.
You will if it was there. I had a 2554 then switched to a built motor with a 2560. I find myself shifting at higher RPM when puttering around town in the 2560 than the 2554. I liked the 2554 better for daily driving. The 2560 is a compromise to get more peak power. There is a definite softness to the boost response in the 2560 in the 3500-4000 RPM range which isn't there in the 2554.

There's a pleasantness to having a very wide torque band which is there in my 540i, and which the 2554 was better at than the 2560.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 18psi View Post
And I think they will next mention transients, "which you can't see on a dyno"
Yes you can see it on the dyno by plotting torque vs. time and you hold an RPM at light throttle then floor it.

And unless the same person drives the 2 turbos then the only way to compare 2 different setups is through datalogs.
JasonC SBB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-28-2014, 02:01 PM   #42
Supporting Vendor
iTrader: (31)
 
Savington's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Sunnyvale, CA
Posts: 14,372
Total Cats: 1,334
Default

I've driven both turbos. My subjective opinion is that the EFR responds better than every Garrett setup I've driven, including my old BP4W/2554R setup. I agree that the 2560R is a softer turbo, and the 2860RS is softer again (IMO that turbo is too big for a 1.6 and as large as I would ever go for a 1.8 street car, having owned a 2871R). The 6258's spool was as good or better than my 2554R setup was, and the transient response was better.

Last edited by Savington; 08-28-2014 at 02:12 PM.
Savington is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-28-2014, 03:50 PM   #43
Elite Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 6,454
Total Cats: 80
Default

However your 2554 was on an NA 1.8, and the EFR6258, on a VVT, correct?

VVT spools > 99/00 > NA 1.8
JasonC SBB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-28-2014, 03:51 PM   #44
Supporting Vendor
iTrader: (31)
 
Savington's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Sunnyvale, CA
Posts: 14,372
Total Cats: 1,334
Default

The EFR I drove was on a BP05 and it was essentially untuned. It was still as good as my polished BP4W/2554R setup.
Savington is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-28-2014, 04:17 PM   #45
Senior Member
iTrader: (3)
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Seven Valleys, PA
Posts: 639
Total Cats: 11
Default

Do not run an EFR6258 on a stock block! Even with the "low boost" actuator set with minimal preload i was not able to keep it below 8psi. It broke a rod at the first autocross this year.
swimming108 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-28-2014, 04:22 PM   #46
Supporting Vendor
iTrader: (31)
 
Savington's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Sunnyvale, CA
Posts: 14,372
Total Cats: 1,334
Default

8psi = 200ft.lbs at most. If you broke a rod at 200ft.lbs, it was the tune, not the turbo.
Savington is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-28-2014, 04:24 PM   #47
Senior Member
iTrader: (3)
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Brownsburg,IN
Posts: 800
Total Cats: 58
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by swimming108 View Post
Do not run an EFR6258 on a stock block! Even with the "low boost" actuator set with minimal preload i was not able to keep it below 8psi. It broke a rod at the first autocross this year.
Did you have EBC working and tuned ? I can keep 10psi on the medium boost canister w EBC (for the reccord i did not try cold weather or lower boost settings)
HHammerly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-28-2014, 04:42 PM   #48
Elite Member
iTrader: (10)
 
soviet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: VA
Posts: 3,519
Total Cats: 260
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Savington View Post
8psi = 200ft.lbs at most. If you broke a rod at 200ft.lbs, it was the tune, not the turbo.
So far no one has been able to run EFR6258 on stock block without blowing it up
soviet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-28-2014, 04:49 PM   #49
Supporting Vendor
iTrader: (31)
 
Savington's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Sunnyvale, CA
Posts: 14,372
Total Cats: 1,334
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by soviet View Post
So far no one has been able to run EFR6258 on stock block without blowing it up
The guy who built your setup had no problem doing it
Savington is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-28-2014, 04:49 PM   #50
Senior Member
iTrader: (3)
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Seven Valleys, PA
Posts: 639
Total Cats: 11
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Savington View Post
8psi = 200ft.lbs at most. If you broke a rod at 200ft.lbs, it was the tune, not the turbo.
Agreed, i said i was not able to keep it to 8psi...

Quote:
Originally Posted by HHammerly View Post
Did you have EBC working and tuned ? I can keep 10psi on the medium boost canister w EBC (for the reccord i did not try cold weather or lower boost settings)
That autox was below 45*F air temp in Maryland. First run was able to keep to 8psi, but 2nd and 3rd run were not able to keep it below 10psi. A stock engine could have probably held that power if it was in a little bit better condition. This engine already had 120k on it with 60k above 200hp from my old BEGI turbo.

The point is that EFR turbo does not belong on a stock engine...
swimming108 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-28-2014, 04:53 PM   #51
Elite Member
iTrader: (1)
 
Leafy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: NH
Posts: 9,093
Total Cats: 90
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Savington View Post
8psi = 200ft.lbs at most. If you broke a rod at 200ft.lbs, it was the tune, not the turbo.
Then your EMS4 basemap timing is more aggressive than I thought. This was on a minimally pre-loaded 7psi actuator it creeped to 10psi at peak torque and more or less on your timing and vvt maps (putting a car with electrical problems the dyno is some expensive troubleshooting), lol. I think 8psi on the 6258 or 6758 EFR is going to be worth more than 200ftlbs with a more aggressive timing map.

Leafy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-28-2014, 05:09 PM   #52
Murderator
iTrader: (76)
 
18psi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 36,206
Total Cats: 2,587
Default

We all know that EFR on stock block is on thin ice at best, why even waste time arguing about it?

Anything at all outside ideal circumstances happens, and boom.
18psi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-28-2014, 05:12 PM   #53
Senior Member
iTrader: (3)
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Seven Valleys, PA
Posts: 639
Total Cats: 11
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 18psi View Post
We all know that EFR on stock block is on thin ice at best, why even waste time arguing about it?

Anything at all outside ideal circumstances happens, and boom.

Exactly!!!

Now who wants to build me a new block...?
swimming108 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-28-2014, 06:05 PM   #54
Supporting Vendor
iTrader: (31)
 
Savington's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Sunnyvale, CA
Posts: 14,372
Total Cats: 1,334
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leafy View Post
Then your EMS4 basemap timing is more aggressive than I thought. This was on a minimally pre-loaded 7psi actuator it creeped to 10psi at peak torque and more or less on your timing and vvt maps (putting a car with electrical problems the dyno is some expensive troubleshooting), lol. I think 8psi on the 6258 or 6758 EFR is going to be worth more than 200ftlbs with a more aggressive timing map.
200ft.lbs is based on BMEP calculations, not on a wild-*** guess. Miatas generally don't make more than ~72lbs of torque per liter per atmosphere of pressure. 8 PSIg = ~1.54bar * 1.84L * 72lb/L-ATM = 204ft.lbs. You can see where the torque levels out at ~5k before beginning to creep again, and it levels out at 195ft.lbs. That's exactly what I would expect an EFR6258 to make at ~7psi.
Savington is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-28-2014, 06:11 PM   #55
Elite Member
iTrader: (1)
 
Leafy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: NH
Posts: 9,093
Total Cats: 90
Default

And thats 200ftlbs on a low reading dynapac, which would be closer to 220 on a dynojet.
Leafy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-28-2014, 06:20 PM   #56
Elite Member
iTrader: (1)
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 2,858
Total Cats: 272
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JasonC SBB View Post
EFR6258 and GTX2863 compressor maps awfully similar:

Red is the EFR:
Thank you for this! I've been between these exact two choices for a while.

For me personally its either, EFR$$Custom$$, or Begi S6 iron mani down the street with tial vband gtx2863, support is close by if anything goes wrong.

But dat low end EFR spooool
Girz0r is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-28-2014, 08:49 PM   #57
Elite Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 6,454
Total Cats: 80
Default

This thread actually had the best actual comparison data I've seen. Are there any others?

https://www.miataturbo.net/diy-turbo...cussion-79576/
JasonC SBB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-28-2014, 09:22 PM   #58
Elite Member
iTrader: (10)
 
soviet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: VA
Posts: 3,519
Total Cats: 260
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Savington View Post
The guy who built your setup had no problem doing it
And I ran a defective EFR for a month... its just a matter of time. Evan ran his setup for just 2 months on stock motor.
soviet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-28-2014, 10:05 PM   #59
Destroyer of Inconel
iTrader: (37)
 
EO2K's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In ur driveway, abusin' ur WPA
Posts: 9,642
Total Cats: 954
Default

I'm currently sitting on a 6258 so I've had a good time following this thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 18psi View Post
We all know that EFR on stock block is on thin ice at best, why even waste time arguing about it?

Anything at all outside ideal circumstances happens, and boom.
This sums up my thinking exactly. I'm going to try my best not to do my install until there is a built motor between the frame rails. I have no doubt that someone with careful planning, experience and knowledge of how these systems work would be able to keep things "stock block" compliant, but I'm not that person. I see no reason to run a baller manifold & $$$ turbo that'll do 44lbs/min at something silly like 5~6psi to preserve the stock block.

If all you want is 200/200 and epic spool, go buy a FMII & 2554.
EO2K is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2014, 12:18 AM   #60
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Port Saint Lucie,FL
Posts: 418
Total Cats: 3
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by EO2K View Post
I'm currently sitting on a 6258 so I've had a good time following this thread.



This sums up my thinking exactly. I'm going to try my best not to do my install until there is a built motor between the frame rails. I have no doubt that someone with careful planning, experience and knowledge of how these systems work would be able to keep things "stock block" compliant, but I'm not that person. I see no reason to run a baller manifold & $$$ turbo that'll do 44lbs/min at something silly like 5~6psi to preserve the stock block.

If all you want is 200/200 and epic spool, go buy a FMII & 2554.
And that's the way it looks like it's gonna go... the kit was sold to another member who pm'd the seller before I did... but for $2500, that woulda been one hell of a setup.

But you are right, no sense in attempting to tame that beast for the sake of a stock block...(and probably failing at that, too.)

It is kinda lame that the FMII kit is gonna cost me more tho, that's the part I don't like.
Mech5700 is offline   Reply With Quote
 
 
Reply

Related Topics
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Buzzing from driver side of engine bay? (MS3 install) nick470 MEGAsquirt 7 06-16-2017 02:53 PM
LucaCarMods's Boosted Dutch Miata Build! LucaCarMods Build Threads 11 02-14-2016 07:13 AM
Bad head gasket or ? shooterschmidty Engine Performance 8 09-30-2015 11:28 PM
Are my coils failing? viriiguy General Miata Chat 5 09-28-2015 08:39 PM


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:01 AM.