Garrett turbo question - Miata Turbo Forum - Boost cars, acquire cats.

Welcome to Miataturbo.net   Members
 


DIY Turbo Discussion greddy on a 1.8? homebrew kit?

Reply
 
 
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 12-03-2007, 01:54 PM   #1
:(
Thread Starter
iTrader: (7)
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: nowhere
Posts: 8,281
Total Cats: 2
Default Garrett turbo question

Regarding the Garrett T04B Turbocharger, the compressor size is 2.15"/2.75" and the turbine is 2.54"/2.92
http://www.dsmparts.com/customer/pro...cat=166&page=1 So mark Scot etc do you guys think this turbo is to large for my 1.7 liter motor. Would i maybe have to add some more to redline like say 2-3K rpm to run it? For the price and the fact that it is a bolt on swap i kinda like it. So what do you guys think?
magnamx-5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2007, 02:06 PM   #2
Boost Czar
iTrader: (61)
 
Braineack's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Chantilly, VA
Posts: 72,860
Total Cats: 1,788
Default

what are you looking for out of it?

it's potentially a +350hp turbo. However the turbine seems to be larger than a Stg. III, which may be a bit large. Markp can be a better help.
Braineack is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2007, 03:52 PM   #3
:(
Thread Starter
iTrader: (7)
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: nowhere
Posts: 8,281
Total Cats: 2
Default

Exactly this seems like my cheapest way to more hp than a 16g can flow. I was hoping mark would see this thread. I still want the car to make power under 3K atleast 100 or so whp by 3200 rpm as in my initial dyno i made 100-105 by then on my 16g Like i have said before i know nothing about garrets
magnamx-5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2007, 03:59 PM   #4
Elite Member
iTrader: (12)
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Central-ish VA
Posts: 4,449
Total Cats: 16
Default

neogenesis2004 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2007, 01:32 AM   #5
Senior Member
iTrader: (2)
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: North Cackalackey
Posts: 716
Total Cats: 2
Default

i would rather buy a t3 super 60. i got that on my car and i love the thing, it just won't stop spooling. very happy with it if anyone cares lol


Quote:
Originally Posted by neogenesis2004 View Post
musanovic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2007, 02:26 AM   #6
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,379
Total Cats: 1
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by magnamx-5 View Post
Regarding the Garrett T04B Turbocharger, the compressor size is 2.15"/2.75" and the turbine is 2.54"/2.92
http://www.dsmparts.com/customer/pro...cat=166&page=1 So mark Scot etc do you guys think this turbo is to large for my 1.7 liter motor. Would i maybe have to add some more to redline like say 2-3K rpm to run it? For the price and the fact that it is a bolt on swap i kinda like it. So what do you guys think?
That is a lot of turbine to spool up with a 1.7 liter motor. I would say yes, raising the rev limit and not expecting to make low end boost seems to be a reasonable assumption. However it's not unreasonable to think with the right cams, valve train, and good pistons and rods that it would a monster. Without knowing the A/R's on the turbine it's hard to say where exactly it will spool, I will assume a .63 A/R for the discussion.

You would definitely want a motor either built for high rpm, or that used nitrous to spool this large of a turbine. I think that it would spool somewhere around 5,000 to 5,500 RPM and with an 8,500 or 9,000 RPM motor it could be a lot of fun (although piston speed is going to be REALLY high, especially given the crappy rod ratio.)

Mark

PS - The compressor should be good to go though for an over 250 RWHP app.
Markp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2007, 02:49 AM   #7
Elite Member
iTrader: (12)
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Central-ish VA
Posts: 4,449
Total Cats: 16
Default

To put things in perspective, the piston speed at ~8500rpm on a miata is the same as a s2000 at 9krpm. So with a built motor I would say its not entirely unreasonable. Especiallty if the pistons are coated.

Back on topic.
neogenesis2004 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2007, 09:28 AM   #8
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,379
Total Cats: 1
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by neogenesis2004 View Post
To put things in perspective, the piston speed at ~8500rpm on a miata is the same as a s2000 at 9krpm. So with a built motor I would say its not entirely unreasonable. Especiallty if the pistons are coated.

Back on topic.
I understand that, but you aren't going to have a stock BP motor live at 9k RPM was my point. Well not very comfortably at least. There are other factors as well, such as piston and rod weight, which I am pretty sure are higher in the Miata. The S2k motor is a remarkable piece of engineering and you'll notice that Honda has backed away from the high rev limit and runs an 8,000 RPM rev limit with peak power listed at 7800 RPM on the '07 S2k.

Mark
Markp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2007, 09:59 AM   #9
Ben
Supporting Vendor
iTrader: (33)
 
Ben's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: atlanta-ish
Posts: 12,689
Total Cats: 99
Default

I don't think this is a good plan without some rods first Richard...
And if you want to "add some redline 2-3k" you've got a lot of work in the head to worry about too.

If you want a little more with what you got, look into some cam gears, and maybe some cams.

http://forum.miata.net/vb/showthread...ight=cam+gears
Quote:
We found on the dyno retarding the intake 2 improved power everywhere, and reduced cam overlap to the point the engine idled much better than before. We tried 3 retard on the intake, but nothing happened, so we backed it off to 2 retarded. We then started advancing the exhaust cam, 2 at a time. Power and torque increased everywhere with each advancement. We stopped at 5 advance, even though the power still increased again. Dyno tuner said he was a little uncomfortable advancing it anymore.
http://forum.miata.net/vb/showthread...ight=cam+gears
Quote:
On my 1.8, I have 2 degrees of retard on the intake cam and 3 degrees of advance on the exhaust cam. This set-up gave me 9 hp (2500 to 5800) then peaked at 12 hp @ 5900 rpm through 7200 rpm w/ no loss of torque at all. It was a big difference.
etc etc, there's more in there if you want to search

I am about to play with some webcamshafts model 505.
Ben is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2007, 10:04 AM   #10
Boost Czar
iTrader: (61)
 
Braineack's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Chantilly, VA
Posts: 72,860
Total Cats: 1,788
Default

doesn't magna have a built motor, and nitrous.......
Braineack is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2007, 10:07 AM   #11
Ben
Supporting Vendor
iTrader: (33)
 
Ben's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: atlanta-ish
Posts: 12,689
Total Cats: 99
Default

If I remember correctly, he's got some fancy overbore pistons on (drumroll) stock rods, which was the dee dee dee move of the year
Ben is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2007, 04:25 PM   #12
Elite Member
iTrader: (12)
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Central-ish VA
Posts: 4,449
Total Cats: 16
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Markp View Post
I understand that, but you aren't going to have a stock BP motor live at 9k RPM was my point. Well not very comfortably at least. There are other factors as well, such as piston and rod weight, which I am pretty sure are higher in the Miata. The S2k motor is a remarkable piece of engineering and you'll notice that Honda has backed away from the high rev limit and runs an 8,000 RPM rev limit with peak power listed at 7800 RPM on the '07 S2k.

Mark
As a counter point to your argument, when honda increased the displacement from 2L to 2.2L they did so by increasing the stroke. Hence the decrease in redline. The pistons speeds remained approx the same.
neogenesis2004 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2007, 04:36 PM   #13
:(
Thread Starter
iTrader: (7)
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: nowhere
Posts: 8,281
Total Cats: 2
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben View Post
If I remember correctly, he's got some fancy overbore pistons on (drumroll) stock rods, which was the dee dee dee move of the year
yep i am the dee de dee on that one for sure. Heclk only reason i don't have rods is cause i got raped onthe pistons and,rpds where still high as hell in the pre belfab etc days. I want rods and billet op gears, before i get this i love the 20 g sleeper idea though i have never heard of that the price is definatley right for me. Thanks guys
magnamx-5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2007, 04:44 PM   #14
Elite Member
iTrader: (12)
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Central-ish VA
Posts: 4,449
Total Cats: 16
Default

Furthermore....

Here is a list of honda rs ratios (although stroke pays the main roll in piston speed)

Block Rod length Stroke Rod ratio
D16A6, Z6, Y7, Y8 137mm 90mm 1.52:1
B16A1, A2, A3 134.4mm 77.4mm 1.74:1
B17A1 131.9mm 81.4mm 1.62:1
B18A1, B1, B20B4 137mm 89mm 1.54:1
B18C1, C5 138mm 87.2mm 1.58:1
H22A1 143mm 90.7mm 1.58:1
H23A1, A4 141.5mm 95mm 1.49:1
K20A, A2 139mm 86mm 1.62:1
K24A 152mm 99mm 1.54:1

Lets throw in the B6
B6 132.95mm 83.6mm 1.59:1

So the b6 has a r/s ratio similar to some of Hondas most famous VTEC engines. Also it has a shorter stroke then many of them, closest being to the b16 (the motor most known to love high revs).

Also, eagle rods for the majority of those applications (one of THE most popular rods for them) weigh in at ~510g, or the same weight as the CAT rods. As far as turbo pistons go I'm sure that my miata wiseco pistons are very similar in weight to any honda wiseco turbo piston.

Point being, with good cams, valvetrain, pump gears I don't see why a b6 can't rev to 9k happily like many of those motors do every day for years.
neogenesis2004 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2007, 04:55 PM   #15
:(
Thread Starter
iTrader: (7)
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: nowhere
Posts: 8,281
Total Cats: 2
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by neogenesis2004 View Post
Furthermore....

Here is a list of honda rs ratios (although stroke pays the main roll in piston speed)

Block Rod length Stroke Rod ratio
D16A6, Z6, Y7, Y8 137mm 90mm 1.52:1
B16A1, A2, A3 134.4mm 77.4mm 1.74:1
B17A1 131.9mm 81.4mm 1.62:1
B18A1, B1, B20B4 137mm 89mm 1.54:1
B18C1, C5 138mm 87.2mm 1.58:1
H22A1 143mm 90.7mm 1.58:1
H23A1, A4 141.5mm 95mm 1.49:1
K20A, A2 139mm 86mm 1.62:1
K24A 152mm 99mm 1.54:1

Lets throw in the B6
B6 132.95mm 83.6mm 1.59:1

So the b6 has a r/s ratio similar to some of Hondas most famous VTEC engines. Also it has a shorter stroke then many of them, closest being to the b16 (the motor most known to love high revs).

Also, eagle rods for the majority of those applications (one of THE most popular rods for them) weigh in at ~510g, or the same weight as the CAT rods. As far as turbo pistons go I'm sure that my miata wiseco pistons are very similar in weight to any honda wiseco turbo piston.

Point being, with good cams, valvetrain, pump gears I don't see why a b6 can't rev to 9k happily like many of those motors do every day for years.
^^ All the more reason you need to get done so i can copy your motor build more closely
magnamx-5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2007, 05:01 PM   #16
Elite Member
iTrader: (12)
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Central-ish VA
Posts: 4,449
Total Cats: 16
Default

haha, I just need to get back home to do it man.

Here is a pic of the b6 vs the b18c1/5, which I personally know people who spin these to 9k all day long. It shows that the b18c1/5 actually has a higher max piston speed, while for the majority of the time they are very close to the same. This graph is charted to a max rpm of 9k.

neogenesis2004 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2007, 05:04 PM   #17
Boost Czar
iTrader: (61)
 
Braineack's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Chantilly, VA
Posts: 72,860
Total Cats: 1,788
Default

nerdbomber alert
Braineack is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2007, 09:03 AM   #18
Elite Member
iTrader: (8)
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Severn, MD
Posts: 1,927
Total Cats: 5
Default

What are your goals? Why not just turn up the boost on your 16G? Keep in mind that the turbo you linked to is EWG. The internal gate is $150 more. Not sure if you're IWG OR EWG now.

The new Forced Performance 18G is getting some good reviews and would probably be better suited to a 1.7.

Frank
fmowry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2007, 12:23 PM   #19
:(
Thread Starter
iTrader: (7)
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: nowhere
Posts: 8,281
Total Cats: 2
Default

Well as it sits now i am comming into a range of enefeciency with my turbo towards 17+ psi according to the maps. As far as gaols they never stay still long enough for some reason. This would be a upgrade probably next year or the year after since i will probably pull the motor and up the rev limit first etc to see if i can make more gains. Quite simply Frank i wanna be fast then i wanna be able to surpise myself. As it is now i need to figure out something for rubber etc. So this is just planing and general info gathering thread. I would like to stay IWG unless i pic up a nice mig some time i wont be making a new manifold or EWG setup.
So to recap Keep Ebay megan racing manifolds run more effeciently up to sau 20 or so psi and still make good power,(unless i install a map daddy, then it will be where ever **** begins to breack) Still need more traction suspension, knock sense, ebc, and rollbar or partial cage. Hopefully i can get this into the deep 12's or maybe decent 11's. I gues my first step would be to establish a normal tune for my high boost now log and compare real AIT numbers from inside my intake tract, and dyno the setup as it runs, and tune in timming etc. Once this is done i might just use the nos to let my but dyno decide how much is to much and add the NOS boost number to the Dyno number giving me a real gaol. FWIW my chicken *** with stock rods has only tried a 50 wet shot at 9-10 psi so far and it is ok but not quite as good as 14 psi and no where near as good as 17 psi.
magnamx-5 is offline   Reply With Quote
 
 
Reply

Related Topics
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Garrett Turbo, 1.8 Oil Pan, & Misc. Stuff nbdooey Miata parts for sale/trade 9 08-30-2017 10:50 PM
Another Cast Manifold Corky Bell Prefabbed Turbo Kits 18 11-22-2016 10:01 PM
LucaCarMods's Boosted Dutch Miata Build! LucaCarMods Build Threads 11 02-14-2016 07:13 AM
Low oil pressure after 1.8 swap and new turbo setup JesseTheNoob DIY Turbo Discussion 15 09-30-2015 03:44 PM


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:08 PM.