Garrett vs EFR at DIYAutotune discussion
 

After playing with a couple EFR turbos, I'd be inclined to look at a GTX anyway...

Ut oh. Why's that?

Precision 4828.

BW s256?

Even an s256 would be fine, probably a better choice than a non-GTX Garrett.

If you want lowend grunt and crisp resonse, the s366 is definitely the way to go.

Not to derail the thread, but this is the first time I have heard anyone blaspheme the mighty EFR on MT.net.

Interested in your experiences.

+1

an angry mob is already assembling :giggle:

Yeah I was just mentioning it out of curiosity. I have a lot more work to do on my car before I replace my hot side. I know because of soviet everyone lusts over the efr & it does look like a great turbo. I'm really curious though about the billet precision & gtx. They appear to be comparable.

Don't mean to derail but Jeff's (drift) build is about the only gtx info I've seen and it looks just as legit as the efr. Him and soviet both have real build with quality parts (and appear to know what they're doing).

Anyway... I do like the look of that manifold. Looks way more serviceable.

Isn't Jeff's build based on the 2.5 MZR engine? Not at all comparable to the BP... Or am I confused?

He has a bp4w w/ a square top. See the BP stamp?

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1366701516

There are others too, soviet just happens to have pretty dyno plots vs everyone else either has clips filmed with a potato, or a plot that looks like it was drawn on a napkin by a kid having a seizure, or is limp pee pee cause the person doesn't have the balls to run ALLOFIT

Both turbo's show great results on other platforms too, though I'd have to say the EFR still seems to dominate on other platforms as well. Everyone raves about "dat response". Building an insta-5psi on throttle tip in def sounds delicious to me.

I fall into the last category. Comments of people who drive my car are still along the lines of, "it doesnt drive like a turbo car, you hit the pedal and it just goes, and goes and keeps going, and you think you should shift because the needle is off the tach but you havent hit redline yet and its still going."

From Jeff's sig:

I think that BP you posted was his old engine. Unless he went BACK to a BP after going to the MZR. Did he have the GTX on the old BP as well?

https://www.miataturbo.net/build-thr...a-72354/page2/

In January he posted pics of same motor. plus mzr has reversed exhaust and intake and i do not see such. don't know man. Also:

Final numbers: 374whp/331wtq @22psi on a gtx2860 .64

that's a different Jeff :giggle:

You said Jeff talking about jbguillo. I said Jeff talking about turns101, Jeff Abbott. :laugh:

Indeed. Carry on.

This does sound awesome. I did read your comment about your car feeling better than someone else that had a gtx leafy but they have an fm log and hopefully a big enough exhaust? according to the dyno from the drift car it looks like it should similar spooling and response no?

Something along the lines of dyno Garrett, replace with BW, make less power with more boost and less response. As in fail all over.

I have dyno plots, but not the customers' permission to share.

In the next couple weeks, we'll be tuning a car that just had a Precision turbo replaced by a BW EFR. I have fingers crossed.

I'll be very interested in the results as I am currently running a precision 4828.

I assume said experience is on a BP or B6 and not on some other platform with limited relevance to our application? Having driven lots of small GT25 Miata and one poorly tuned Borg EFR Miata, the suggestion that the EFR has "less response" is really hard for me to stomach.

Which Garrett turbo, which BW turbo?

Forget talks of manifold designs and turbos lets take it back to the very basics.

Will the kit have a bunch of the hdr fittings like we are used to seeing on the rest of the kits or will they have actual welded barbs and proper one piece fittings?

Yes, it was a BP. Yes, it directly relates. Let me see if I can get the owner's permission to share the details.

Interested to see this Ben, since the EFRs have better compressor geometry and larger turbines compared to their compressors than the garrets and less rotating inertia I'm failing to see how both of those things could happen at once, I could believe seeing one, either less response if you started with like a GT12 or less power/boost if you stated with like a GT3576R.

The Garrett turbo was one that is commonly used on Miatas. If I get permission from the customer (who previously asked me specifically to NOT share his comparison plot), I will post it up.

Why do people not want to share plots and dyno information? If they are racing I don't see how a simple dyno plot is going to give out any private information about the tune.

Maybe its a case of upgrading from a 2560 to a 6258, running low boost (10psi?), and expecting higher numbers at that low boost and better spool from a much larger turbo?

Maybe, but I made 250hp on a dynapac with 10psi with the 6758.

Nope. Plus built engine, 20+ psi boost on the EFR. The results were surprising.

Wow, I would love to see that.

Access granted. Built BP-Z3, +1.5mm 8.8:1, MS3X EMS; GT2560r (solid) vs EFR 6758 (dotted). Boost was a few psi less than I remembered, but you should get the idea:

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...1&d=1403019383

Are there knock off EFRs now? I believed that graph right up to 3700 rpms. Well except I dont believe that a 2560R could make that much power on the DIYAT dyno, which is supposed to be a super heart breaker.

335/325 out of a GT2560R @ 19 psi? you're smoking crack. That's like 70 more ftlbs than the max i've seen.

fucking cool as hell though.

That's...... bizarre.

That does look kinda weird tho, it just goes limp past 5k. the efr should be nowhere near maxed out

must have been a leaky nitrous bottle being stored next to the dyno.

Right. My 2554 holds up top better than that. And better than the 2560 on that chart.

Those torque numbers don't gel either. Smells like FM's dyno.


Ben, are you sure those numbers aren't like.... those turbos on an F2T?

Maybe mods split this out? I feel like I want to ask more questions but I will only be cluttering up the BEGI thread.

Especially since DIYATs dynapac supposedly reads 16% lower than a dynojet, that would be like basically hitting 380hp on a dynojet with a 2560R, thats NitroDann territory.

They must have found and plugged the leak prior to the EFR run.
:laugh:

It's my thread, do what you want. Post cats, dicks, spew obscenities everywhere, i don't care in the slightest.

Your comments make me LOL. I was wondering why my nitrous bottle was empty. It's a BP-Z3 is installed in a Lotus7 replica. Packaging is much better, exhaust is MUCH better. Motor is well prepped, not stock.

How do the torque numbers "not gel"? You know that horsepower is derived from torque and RPM, right?

There's no level of impropriety in the plots; I don't sell turbos or have an agenda. If you feel like an EFR is a good choice for you, go for it. In this test, the EFR lost power, both on the actual and butt dynos. The car's owner is registered on this forum and he'll post up if he feels like it.

Theres just no way, no matter how good your exhaust is, that you can make a 32lb/min turbo make 325whp on a heart breaker dyno, especially not with a BP. And that you can fail to beat that with a much more efficient 53lb/min turbo is just mind boggling.

I know how horsepower is derived, i'm just saying that the torque number you got out of the 2560 is pretty much unpossibru, and it's weird that it falls so hard. I can't understanding losing almost 100wtq from peak to redline on a built BP with any EFR.

I actually remember you posting a similar 2560 making 325whp in a Locost/Lotus/Caterham thing awhile back... this the same car?

Can you get permission to post pics of the manifold and exhaust? I want to see what better and MUCH better looks like.

I bailed on a GT2560R in favor of an EFR6258 specifically because of the limitations we've traditionally seen out of the 2560. The information you've posted does not match what we've seen out of either turbo, so please do not take our skepticism as personal attack. We are just trying to understand.

How much power did Paul make on his 2560 & AbsurdFlow setup? AFAIK that's as good as it got with a 2560.

+1 to all of what G said

Paul's best was somewhere around 311rwhp@17psi. on a dynojet with 93 octane, MS2. '99 engine, BEGI cast intake mani. but 304rwhp at 14psi at the same day, so it was at it's limit. I think torques were around 260's.

E85 + MS3? I don't know. I trust Ben but that's nuts.

If legit, i want to drive that car. I bet it's horrifying.

http://s95367906.onlinehome.us/photo...vs-400whp.png?

Red line is Soviet's car on gas IIRC. 84mm bottom end, stock BP4W head, EFR6758, 400whp@20psi. Just sayin'

I thought 400whp was at something closer to 26-27psi (maybe even 29psi) for soviet on pump gas.

No, that was the max power ALLOFIT run.


Look at the top of the picture, gives details on the red line run.

It is HRK's locost that Ben is talking about and this is the build thread for the locost7. Here is the original dyno thread from last year where the 2560 dyno was first shown.

Wait, this manifold or something else?

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1355459277

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1355459277

6758 may be a better choice, but IMO the 6258 leaves something to be desired.

I think the big question is, what makes your experience so different? Normally a 10 PSI 2560 setup makes about 220 whp. But a similar setup at 10 psi on the 6258 bends rods.

Why?

I'm also wondering why a 6258 on a "better" built motor would spool shittier than a 6758 on a somewhat half-assed motor (no offense to Soviet.)

because math

oh wait

Our dynapack doesn't seem to let little motors spool up as well as actual driving does.

What 6258 setup bends rods? Who else has done a comparison, same car, same dyno, same motor?

I have complete faith in the dyno results because I was there. Everybody expected the BW EFR to blow away the Garrett. Everybody was surprised when it didn't.

Pretty much everyone on this site who has put any EFR on a stock motor has ended up with bent rods, regardless of boost level.

you can fix that you know. dynapac gives you to power to hold the car for a second or two before starting the pull and it allows you to control the length of the pull. When I dyno'ed at a spec miata shop on a dynapac they only had it setup for SMs and I really didnt want to make a 25 second long 4th gear pull, with 7 a second hold at the start of the pull. So I think I dropped it to 3 seconds and a 15 second long pull because those were the numbers I pulled out of my ass on the spot.