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Old 11-15-2006, 03:23 PM   #41
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Dumb question markp. What car is this on? I remember you had a '99 back in the day.

Frank
Same '99 Miata. The one that's been rolled, battered and abused.

Mark
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Old 11-15-2006, 04:01 PM   #42
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Reason I asked was sortof in reference to the whole "add a return fuel system to a '99+ returnless Miata".

Seems like pretty much headroom in the stock rail with bigger injectors and good EM for %90 of the people.

Frank
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Old 11-15-2006, 04:01 PM   #43
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Damn the 880's at 20 psi with the stock fpr if you had a return would be good for 604 chp. but with a returnless system you would probably only get 580 chp how will you manage to live with so little hp
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Old 11-15-2006, 04:50 PM   #44
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Very nice!!!
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Old 11-15-2006, 06:52 PM   #45
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Damn the 880's at 20 psi with the stock fpr if you had a return would be good for 604 chp. but with a returnless system you would probably only get 580 chp how will you manage to live with so little hp
I don't think it's that much power... I expect somewhere in the mid 300's as far as power goes... My butt dyno has no idea though, I don't know how much power it takes to skate the rears in 3rd gear. I get the car back tonight, so hopefully I can do some datalogging on it. It's definately quick.

Mark
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Old 11-15-2006, 07:05 PM   #46
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of course it isnt that much but that much is possible given good turbo flow and tuning
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Old 11-15-2006, 07:25 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by Markp View Post
Ok, here are some real numbers datalogged from a 3rd gear roll on at about 70 MPH.

5 PSI at 4500
15 PSI at 5000
20 PSI at 5300

Street tune on pump gas. Yes, you can roll into the throttle and break the Falken Azenis loose in 3rd gear (six speed tranny with 3.636 diff.)

Seems that we hit the injector limit due to the factory rail at 20 PSI and 8500 RPM with a duty cycle of 90%. This is with the 880 cc/min injectors and walbro 255 HP pump. 11.2:1 AF Ratio, texas 93 octane.

Mark
What are your egts and fuel pressure?
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Old 11-15-2006, 07:37 PM   #48
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I don't think it's that much power... I expect somewhere in the mid 300's as far as power goes... My butt dyno has no idea though, I don't know how much power it takes to skate the rears in 3rd gear. I get the car back tonight, so hopefully I can do some datalogging on it. It's definately quick.

Mark
When I run 16psi on my GT3271 on race fuel I spin my 225/45/15 RS2's in 3rd gear. At 11psi on pump gas I spin 2nd gear and of course 1st gear. I would guess that at 16psi I am around 300whp and thats with a 5 speed tranny and 4.10 torsen type II in the rear. My turbo hits 16psi @ 4200rpm in 3rd gear. From 3700-4200 it goes from 7psi to 16psi in the blink of an eye.

And just to refute those people that are saying " how can a failed wg blow an engine"...I did it. It was on my 1.6L with a T3 S60. I ran 18psi on race fuel and had a failed manual boost controller...it basically caused a quick overboost to 25psi on a 4th gear run on the interstate, this blew my #3 piston into small pieces and shot the rod out of 3 places in my oil pan and one nice hole on the passenger side of the block...it was sweet.
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Old 11-15-2006, 07:40 PM   #49
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What are your egts and fuel pressure?
To be honest, I don't know yet. I only have wideband data.

Mark
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Old 11-15-2006, 07:46 PM   #50
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When I run 16psi on my GT3271 on race fuel I spin my 225/45/15 RS2's in 3rd gear. At 11psi on pump gas I spin 2nd gear and of course 1st gear. I would guess that at 16psi I am around 300whp and thats with a 5 speed tranny and 4.10 torsen type II in the rear. My turbo hits 16psi @ 4200rpm in 3rd gear. From 3700-4200 it goes from 7psi to 16psi in the blink of an eye.

And just to refute those people that are saying " how can a failed wg blow an engine"...I did it. It was on my 1.6L with a T3 S60. I ran 18psi on race fuel and had a failed manual boost controller...it basically caused a quick overboost to 25psi on a 4th gear run on the interstate, this blew my #3 piston into small pieces and shot the rod out of 3 places in my oil pan and one nice hole on the passenger side of the block...it was sweet.
Ya, there is no chance to watch the boost gauge to be honest, as you're cresting 18 PSI and the car is starting to go sideways you tend to lose sight of the boost gauge in the A/C pod. It's pretty sick. It's a handful and it has a very competent suspension package under it that has been dialed in pretty well. The rear tires are really doing their best but there is only so much power they can hold. As noted before, this is a type II torsen with a 3.636 and the 6 speed transmission. If I get the chance to take it out to the track soon, I will. I think it should run 12's pretty handily.

Mark
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Old 11-15-2006, 08:40 PM   #51
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I seem to be spooling similarly, although it's hard to tell, since not only does it happen fast, but my autometer gauge does not respond as quick as my old boost gauge. By 3500 I'm at 7 psi and by 4500 or just below, I'm at 16psi. This is with 4.30 rear in 4th with a 5 speed box. I'm running 16psi on a daily basis with water/alky injection on 93 octane. I've been considering 20 psi, but not until I can mix in some race gas, so I can drop timing and egts. On the other hand, I'm also considering 13-14 psi because of the lack of traction.
I was hoping the 225/45 Kooks would have helped some, as I'm considering those with the 949Racing wheels. Would the 225/50-15 Kooks sound like a better idea?
By the way, what are the ambient temps which you guys are breaking traction in 3rd.
Well... It was about 75-80 F today. It's running about 14 degrees total timing at 20 PSI boost. I will undoubtably lower the boost to about 15 PSI for the street. It is amazing how much boost you can run on pump gas with the TEC-IIIR, which reinforces my decision to pick this ECU, it is just spectacular. I do need to look at EGT's and will install the probe soon. I have 2 type K thermocouples waiting to go in.

I am not using any water or alcohol injection and the little intercooler surprised Ric with only a few degree increase in temps during a run that was datalogged.

FWIW the 6 speed in 3rd with a 3.636 is almost the same as running a 5 speed in 3rd with a 4.44 rear.

Mark
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Old 11-15-2006, 09:14 PM   #52
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ccc- why don't you try some dot race tires at full tread? Changing to a softer compound will give you the traction you're looking for.

re: 3271 spool - Both ccc and Andy get sensational spool from 7 to 16psi compared to the older t3/t4 hybrid. Is that attributed in part to the newer design?
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Old 11-15-2006, 11:51 PM   #53
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Ya, there is no chance to watch the boost gauge to be honest, as you're cresting 18 PSI and the car is starting to go sideways you tend to lose sight of the boost gauge in the A/C pod. It's pretty sick. It's a handful and it has a very competent suspension package under it that has been dialed in pretty well. The rear tires are really doing their best but there is only so much power they can hold. As noted before, this is a type II torsen with a 3.636 and the 6 speed transmission. If I get the chance to take it out to the track soon, I will. I think it should run 12's pretty handily.

Mark

i ran that 12.2 @ 16psi so I know you can do better....11's
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Old 11-16-2006, 12:01 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by m2cupcar View Post
ccc- why don't you try some dot race tires at full tread? Changing to a softer compound will give you the traction you're looking for.

re: 3271 spool - Both ccc and Andy get sensational spool from 7 to 16psi compared to the older t3/t4 hybrid. Is that attributed in part to the newer design?

I honestly do think that the newer GT turbos are a lot better as far as spool is concerned. GT series compressor wheels arent really SO MUCH better than the T series compressors, but they are just more efficient. Its in the turbine section that helps the GT series. Gt turbines are more efficient, and offer a more curvacious and lightweight design that helps spool a ton. For example: A stage 3 T series turbine flows just as well but its heavier than a GT30 series turbine but the GT30 turbine will get up and go 400rpm faster and it can flow more are higher pressure ratios.
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Old 11-16-2006, 09:24 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Markp View Post
the little intercooler surprised Ric with only a few degree increase in temps during a run that was datalogged.

Mark
What intercooler are you using?
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Old 11-16-2006, 10:09 AM   #56
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What intercooler are you using?
I think its a cut down ford powerstroke IC, mark can correct me if im wrong.
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Old 11-16-2006, 10:09 AM   #57
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What intercooler are you using?
From the first post:

"cut down Ford F-150 Powerstroke intercooler."

I was gonna ask the same question, then saw it when I reread the thread.

Frank
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Old 11-16-2006, 10:20 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by AndyFloyd View Post
I honestly do think that the newer GT turbos are a lot better as far as spool is concerned...
I agree. Looking at the spool characteristics I have now vs. yours. Granted my car isn't fully tuned, but you're not running a programmable ecu either. Your spool takes off like a rocket from 7psi. I've got more displacement, larger valves and way larger ports and I see the following: onset=1800 3psi=2900 6psi=3500 9psi=3900 12psi=4300.

Are you running an external gate? I'm running an OE internal and I know it's far from ideal. I'm considering a 38mm external gate after seeing Mark's route "through" the runners for his dump pipe on the SSA header. I could bring that right back in to my down pipe. What about exhaust? Cat? Size?

Still need to tune though- I've only made two runs at 12psi. - rob
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Old 11-16-2006, 10:45 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by m2cupcar View Post
I agree. Looking at the spool characteristics I have now vs. yours. Granted my car isn't fully tuned, but you're not running a programmable ecu either. Your spool takes off like a rocket from 7psi. I've got more displacement, larger valves and way larger ports and I see the following: onset=1800 3psi=2900 6psi=3500 9psi=3900 12psi=4300.

Are you running an external gate? I'm running an OE internal and I know it's far from ideal. I'm considering a 38mm external gate after seeing Mark's route "through" the runners for his dump pipe on the SSA header. I could bring that right back in to my down pipe. What about exhaust? Cat? Size?

Still need to tune though- I've only made two runs at 12psi. - rob
Well I did finally get the car last night which means I should be able to take pictures today, I also plan to go out to spring branch, maybe see if Steph wants to run them side by side. I know Corky will think it's a hoot.

I have a cat, and I have a 2.5" exhaust from the turbo back to the FM duals. FWIW, It spools in high gear at around 4000 RPM somewhere. A little difficult to tell since 6th gear, 4000 RPM is 90 MPH and I tend to be looking for those law enforcement types.

Mark

Last edited by Markp; 11-16-2006 at 11:20 AM.
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Old 11-16-2006, 11:42 AM   #60
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I agree. Looking at the spool characteristics I have now vs. yours. Granted my car isn't fully tuned, but you're not running a programmable ecu either. Your spool takes off like a rocket from 7psi. I've got more displacement, larger valves and way larger ports and I see the following: onset=1800 3psi=2900 6psi=3500 9psi=3900 12psi=4300.

Are you running an external gate? I'm running an OE internal and I know it's far from ideal. I'm considering a 38mm external gate after seeing Mark's route "through" the runners for his dump pipe on the SSA header. I could bring that right back in to my down pipe. What about exhaust? Cat? Size?

Still need to tune though- I've only made two runs at 12psi. - rob

I do have a Tial 38mm gate with a 7psi spring. It has been rock solid for about 3 years now and I love it. I never get any boost spikes, although when its super duper cold outside it will creep about 1psi on the topend. It seems that the GT series turbos spool very fast once they hit about 6psi. I can get 16psi @ 4100 in 5th gear and it spools pretty much instantly at anything over 3700 or so. I figure that when I get a Hydra I can get this little turbo to spool about 300rpm better just from tuning alone. I would guess that this particular turbo on the FE3 would spool even faster, possibly seeing full boost right arounf 4000rpm...assuming 16psi or so. My head is fully ported however so that might help a little.
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