In for shredded hand pics...

He's a Turkish male. The definition of man-hands I'm sure.

Um, we have gloves over here. People use them.

Hahahaha!

I buttoned the car up, with fresh oil and a new filter, and fired up the engine.

It promptly dumped half the oil on the garage floor. Banjo bolt on the oil feed line for the large turbo was loose.
Could not get oil at that time of the night, locked up and went home.

Got oil today, went and topped up the engine, fired it up to back out of the garage and clean the engine bay.
The engine bay was sparkling clean after foaming and pressure washing.
Proceeded to start the engine to pull the car back in. Starts and then dies. Tried again. No start.

Turns out pressure from the washer had knocked the crank sensor towards the crank pulley, and when I started the engine, the the crank sawed into the sensor which was pretty much leaning on it.

FML.

^ Did that after pulling and putting my pully back on, bumped the sensor. Suuuuucks. :(

Ugh. sucks.

Sucks. Ugh.

I ordered two crank sensors from different vendors to be safe.
They will be delivered tomorrow. If they both work, one will go on the shelf as an emergency spare.

Oh, I just found out the Miata shares its crank and cam sensors with certain Mitsubishi models.
And, the price is lower if you buy them using the Mitsubishi part numbers.. Go figure.

Watch out that the Mitsu sensors are the correct sizes and such. I think someone checked a while ago and their may have been some small physical differences.

This is a turbo thread, but I have a brake question.

I have been using ceramic Raybestos pads for years now.
PGD635C (front)
PGD636C (rear)

I like them very much, and I am very much used to their response.
But, they are not available locally. So I was getting a couple sets whenever I could from the US. It's a pain.

Someone I trust suggested Akebono pads. They are available locally.
Have you guys used them, and would you recommend this brand?

I have never heard of that brake pad brand. They do sell them on TireRack so I would assume they are not bad. If available locally I would probably grab them just to get going. If you don't like them, you can always order the ones you do, and still drive the car while waiting for them to ship over.

Akebono is a large company that designs and manufactures brakes for OEM's including Nissan. They make racing parts too but I've not tried anything.

I never tried them on a Miata, but bought a set for my Tacoma when I put tundra brakes on it. I bought them on the advice that akebono makes the OEM pads for Toyota. They were excellent in that application. I put a set on my Prius too which I'm also impressed with.

I had a set of Akebonos on my Z32. Some sort of street sport. Not identical to the factory pads anyways. I had the same pads on it when I sold it a year later and they were still good to go. That was almost 10 years ago though, I don't really remember much else.

From memory the Akebono pads (or at least a model from that manufacturer) are what Mazda sell as OEM for NA/NB these days.(at least here from the Australian parts dept, not certain if they use different suppliers elsewhere)

Original factory fit was Sumitomo, but for whatever reason they changed brand at some stage.

Akebono produces the factory brake pads for RX8's (stamped on the back of the pad) and some other Mazda models. If I have an option of Akebono and other oe brands I'd choose Akebono.

So the turbos are rebuilt and installed, and are working correctly.
The car is not leaking any oil, anywhere, and I replaced the crank sensor I mangled.

Mangled:

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...c96ea7e02c.jpg


I went with the one on the right...

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...2d39212b17.jpg

I also got 4 new tires.
Falken Ziex ZE 310 215/40-16.
The car had a set of ZE 914 Falkens, and I was very happy with them. These are reportedly the improved version of the 914. We'll see.

Now that I corrected my wastegate mistake, the car runs incredibly well.
I can't even tell when the turbos are switching from the little one to the big K04. I roll on the throttle at any rpm (like 2000), and it instantly builds about 15 psi and shoots all the way to redline.

This new found, abundant boost made me realize I need to learn closed loop boost control ASAP.
The turbos are so eager, I keep getting boost spikes like crazy. Hitting the 20 psi overboost protection boost limit is like hitting a brick wall. I thought the engine was going to break first time it happened.

I tried to harness it as best as I can in my open loop boost map.

Please help me understand a few basics of closed loop control:

* EDIT: What is the point of getting the open boost table right (with duty cycle values) before switching over to closed loop boost control when you have to use target kpa values for the closed loop tables? (Duty cycle values for OL vs. target kpa values for CL)

* Would it be OK to turn the boost down (to, say, 8 psi) to keep things safe when I am experimenting with closed loop?

* CORRECTION: If I get closed loop working at low boost (8 psi), would it then be necessary to readjust the P, I and D values again if I want to raise boost to, say 16 psi?? (IOW, are PID values based on engine and inherent flow characteristics, or do they change with increased boost?)


--------------------------------------------------

Unrelated (OK, somewhat related) to boost control:

My large turbo has a 42 mm turbine wheel, and it comes on INSTANTLY, with a massive kick.
I also have a 44 mm turbine wheel and its housing on the shelf.

Do you think switching to the 44 mm turbine will relax things a little?

(I am thinking about exhaust restriction with the smaller turbine, higher EGTs, etc.. as well)


My goal is staying at 16 psi across the board (at least for now), and getting the boost level as flat as possible.
The gentleman who gave me this turbo setup said it is capable of 2 - 2.5 bar (30 - 37 psi) all the way to redline on my engine. It easily produces 32 psi on the MB OM651 2.1 liter diesel engine.

Is "underwhelming" a turbo by running it at less than half of its capacity detrimental at all?


This is what happens when a SC guy is converted into a Turbo maniac by a bunch of cat loving lunatics. You get a million questions.
I have seen the light.

Paging @Braineack, @sixshooter, @18psi...

MS2? I don’t recall. If it is, I don’t think I can add anything as I understand the EBC is different from MS3.

DNM

I have MS2 Enhanced (3.57) from Rev...

My experience is that the PID don't need to change much with target. They are picky, especially I, which can easily wind up under (2) conditions:
1) before EBC really takes over (below waste gate) If you call for more boost than the system can deliver, during a pull from low RPM
2) sudden punch, before turbos spin up

Thus, my view is to limit I and also leave a little bias on the table. If closed loop called for 45 bias, I set open loop to 40. That holds down the wind-up and still allows I to correct you up to target over a few PID cycles.

I use a lot of P, and a fair amount of D, little I (already discussed) The D is not really as an anticipation to get you to target faster, but the opposite, to account for fast increasing boost (spin-up) to actually subtract some output to break the fast rise to control overshoot.

Weather change has more effect, as cold outside air causes the turbos to spin up faster.

On a related note, for when you get there... if available on MS2, you may wish to try this

DNM

I hate to be useless in answering the questions but I use a Greddy Profec B EBC instead of the native MS3 system.

Don't trouble yourself over a turbine change. Work on mastering what you have before giving up on it. I believe it has plenty of headroom.

Tuning the boost table is definitely a two person job. It is very hard to keep an eye on all the details when the car gets up to warp speed.
And, logging and pulling over takes forever.

I have enlisted a friend who happens to be a pretty successful tuner.

I also made these:

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...3accb8b60.jpeg


https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...ebf07cbbf.jpeg


The copper tubing is bolted to the center intake manifold stud.

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...664370b0f.jpeg

I kept the hose diameter small to eliminate the low drone.
A quick test on the freeway with induced knock was pretty successful.
The portion of the otherwise clear thick wall hose threading through the engine bay has a sheath to mask noise.

Does it overshoot with open loop?
Does it overshoot at WG pressure?

Keep in mind that most people use EBC to improve their spool. For installs that don't really need to improve spool, EBC is not quite as valuable. In my install for instance, I use the EBC to manage the compound to twin switch-over, not so much early spool.

I don't remember the setup very well, and am too lazy to scroll back, is this a sequential (compound) configuration? Do you need to control the compressors independently?

It is now 6:45 am. I just came home from an almost 200 mile tuning session.
The car pretty much came alive.
Details, logs once I wake up.
Damn.

Out of curiousity, is there any benefit to the the air tube for listening to knock, as opposed to using a knock box etc with the OEM knock sensor?
Less noise? more accurate? or just cheaper than an amp?

(I know my old Adaptronic had an inbuilt amp for the knock sensor, so you could just plug headphones into it)

Here we go:

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...06503eaf93.png


5th gear, I floored it at 1800 rpm. Could not go any slower at the time, because freeway.
All the way to 7000 rpm.

Definitely getting there. Looks like we will need a couple more tuning sessions.
My friend is an accomplished tuner who used to stay away from MS. He had a point, because most MS units here are really questionable DIY units. Someone I know lost an engine recently due to crappy output transistors in one such unit.
Once he went over my setup he was pretty impressed.
So, I drove, he had the laptop, much discussion and enjoyment ensued.

I am attaching a short log file from last night.

Here's a synopsis of our first tuning session:

* We can definitely harness boost using open loop - it was much easier with two people. No more pulling over every few minutes to make changes...

* Unfortunately boost tapers down after 5000 rpm or so. Looks like I need to reinstall my 44 mm exhaust turbine in the large turbo.(I have a 42 mm turbine right now)

* My det can idea is a complete success. You get none of the ear splitting engine noise, but any knock is heard very clearly.

* We pulled back fuel in a lot of cells, corrected some timing in upper rows (timing was really too aggressive)

* Max injector duty cycle is 62-63%, so lots of headroom

* Boost is instant regardless of load, rpm, or volume of music in the car.

* I I increased the redline up to 7500 from 7100 (I had lowered it back in the day so I would not damage the supercharger). I'm sure I can go a bit higher since I have dual valve springs, but better stay on the safe side of things..


We will work on:

* Maintaining boost rock solid at 16 psi all the way up to redline (I need to install the larger exhaust turbine first for that)

* Smoothing out the "hand shake" between the turbos (there is a tiny, minor dip in boost during the initial hand over)

* The timing table, for power obviously, but without risking the car.


Edit: I have no clue why font size changed while I was typing this up...

I personally want this style DET cans to confirm my MS3 Knock sensor settings are operating correctly with the stock '99 sensor.

Hakan, I'm glad to know you got good results from mounting Cu tube to the IM. Much easier than a mounting below the IM. I will go through the firewall where the Cruise Control cable used to be.

DNM

So this actuator went belly up - again.

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...71e343937b.jpg

It's a vacuum actuator, used to open/close the HP-LP bypass.
In other words, this is the gizmo that switches the turbos.

I spoke with a knowledgeable parts guy and he said they go pretty often. They are not cheap.
I promptly replaced it.

So, rather than waiting for the damn thing to break (and leave me with - gasp - just one turbo), I am designing and building a remote mount electric version of this thing.
Parts are on the way.
Details when I get the parts...

Had a great couple track days until I had bucking/popping/backfiring/stalling problems...

First one happened at around 5500 rpm out of turn 10 at Istanbul Park F1 track. Tach momentarily dropped to zero, huge explosion followed by a cloud of brownish smoke and it felt like I hit a wall.
Made it to the pits, cooled everything off while I checked things over, and the car started fine after about 30 minutes.

The drive to the garage (about 20 miles) was a nightmare. 8 to 10 foot flames, huge "explosions", bucking and jerking with the tach dancing up and down... (mostly down)

I was not calm enough to think clearly, and just wanted to get to the garage. After a ton of trial and error, I found an rpm band where the car would keep running uneventfully, and kept it as steady as possible between 2100 and 2600 rpm.

Cars behind me would hit the brakes and scatter every time the exhaust POPPED. I started shooting muffler internals at one point. My car was like a wounded pirate ship unloading its single cannon aimlessly.
By the time I made it to the garage, I had pretty much no exhaust left. Just a shell of the muffler, and some piping bits.
(I honestly did not mind the demise of the exhaust, because I will be replacing the entire thing with a completely new custom design very soon)

Since the tach was dropping every time the car was bucking (ignition cut), I thought it was the crank sensor. I had a spare, so I slapped it on.

Of course the car fired up right away... I had to be somewhere in a hurry, so I took off.
The car started acting up again, but not as violently. I thought "hmm, cheap ass sensor has crapped the bed already". Both the one I removed and the new one I installed are aftermarket Chinesium "Mazda 323" sensors. They were all I could find in a pinch when I managed to break my perfectly good crank sensor a short while back.

Long story short, I was stranded today. This time around, the car would run at a very specific (but different) rpm band, between 1500 and 1650, and any fluctuation would result in the engine dying. I live on a very twisty steep uphill road, and getting the car up that hill was impossible.

Then, I discovered something pretty unsettling: The damn crank sensor was moving towards or away from the crank wheel no matter how tight the single M6 bolt is wrenched. The metal protective ring embedded in plastic spins pretty freely, and since the bolt exerts all its force on that metal ring, the sensor is not properly secured... So I concocted a washer setup to keep the sensor from moving around.

And, since the car had cooled down and would fire up with the securely mounted and properly gapped sensor, I grabbed my laptop and started driving and logging.. The car warmed up, and bam. It's all in the logs.
I logged the engine and took a composite log, as well. They are pretty short, but document the issue - albeit not as violent as what I lived through on the track and during the drive home after that.

Glancing at the composite log as I was driving made me realize the culprit was the CAM sensor. It is a Mitsubishi EVO 8 /Carisma sensor, about 6 months old...

Came home, popped the hood, and lightly tapped on the cam sensor with the back of a screwdriver, and the engine started to miss / hesitate / almost die every time I "gently" tapped on it.
I am perfectly aware of the plug/pigtail issues the spec Miata guys had discovered a while back. In their interpretation, such symptoms followed by a gentle tap meant momentary loss of contact in the harness plug.

So, I believe I had two separate issues:
The engine bucked because of the cam sensor, and the violent action knocked my crank sensor out of adjustment. Or, I am completely wrong.

Please look at my logs and help me unconfuse myself.

Logs and tune are attached.

Thank you.

CAM signal is definitely fubar

Update:

I had already secured the crank sensor in place.
After replacing the cam sensor with another Mitsubishi unit, the car purrs like a kitten once more.

On a related note, the almost 10 mile drive to the parts store was hysterical.
My wife and one of our dogs were both in the car, it was during the rush hour, and I had to pull over, pop the hood, remove the sensor and cool it every mile before I could continue on the freeway.

The day ended very badly tho. The vet (a specialist professor) told us cancer has spread pretty much all over Eddie's body since the surgery back in February.
No way the poor thing can go through a major surgery again. He will be 12 come New Year's.

Eddie:

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...dbfab7d819.jpg

Ahh man, I'm really sorry to hear that. We're going through a similar thing with my girlfriend's cat right now and it absolutely sucks. Hang in there, it's never easy :(

I'm sorry for Eddie's situation. We try to protect them from every harm but we can only do so much.

My thoughts are with you.

Sorry to hear, but props for a great picture.

Eddie quietly passed away this evening. he was next to me on the couch all day.

His condition had gone from bad to worse in the last 48 hours. He tried to eat a couple bites last night, and vomited blood four times after that.
His vets knew his condition and they told me there was nothing to do. They said this was the end.
I cried my eyes out in the middle of the living room.

He is gone.

I'm sorry for your loss. :(

Really really sorry to hear that man. Hang in there.

I am very sorry. You are a good man.

Hakan, that's really awful. It sucks when a loving companion passes.

My sincere condolences. This is the price we pay for their love.

Thank you very much guys.
All I can think of is, the poor thing is all alone in the cold damp ground in this rainy night.

I am fucking emotional about this. Eddie was by my side for 12 years, and we shared the good and the bad together. He would lean on me when he was shaking because chemo was too hard on him, he would just quietly come up to me and show me whatever problem he had, like a deep cut on his paw, and I never made him memorize commands - I would just talk to him like a person, and he would get me.

He would never accept a treat in the kitchen. He would just walk over to his favorite place in the living room, and I would have to take the treat to him there.

The vets told me his life expectancy would be 3.5 years max, given the fact that he was born on the street, was malnourished in his early days, and yet he got to see well past his 12th birthday with us.
He got cancer when he was just 2, and we fought tooth and nail to treat it. Surgery, chemo, the works.
He was just too weak to fight it the second time around when he was 10, and a single chemo session after his latest surgery almost killed him.
Poor thing stopped eating about a year ago, and we were hand feeding him every day, using a large syringe at first, and then squirting food in his mouth from a cake decorating bag.
I would research and cook meals for him, and then run them through the food processor so it would become smooth and creamy, allowing us to push it through the bag with a nozzle at the tip.

Please do not mind me for rambling. I just feel like shit. And my wife is all the way in Cape Town this week.

It is not rambling when you express your love for a treasured friend.

And he is NOT in the cold ground. That was just a shell. He is happily waiting for you across the rainbow bridge.

Sorry for your loss Hakan; it is always hard to lose someone that close to you. And although it may sound harsh, in his case death might be the salvation from all the pain he was going through, so it may be for the best.

I have not been driving for a while, because Coronavirus.

Now that things are easing up over here, I had a chance to hit the highway, only to be greeted by a newfound "slight hesitation" under high load and high boost.
I thought it could be the plugs, but that never happened before.

I immediately logged the "slight hesitation". You can see it start at 15.8 and 52 seconds.

Any thoughts?

(Log and tune attached)

Guess what...

It WAS the damn plugs. I feel pretty stupid.
Went to the garage and pulled the plugs. The gaps were almost 40 thou.

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...3ab019503a.jpg


https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...0d5916a670.jpg


https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...18abc5109f.jpg



A quick cleaning, followed by gapping them down to 25 thou worked wonders, and the car pulls just great with no objections whatsoever.
4th and 5th gear pulls at 21 psi max.

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...5ec78fc063.jpg

I would love to see a dyno chart of your car, would be interesting to see the powerband. Glad missfire was an easy fix.

I just received the 4 port MAC solenoid.
It is genuine as far as I can tell. Checked a bunch of comparison sites and images.

So, my new adventure will be figuring out closed loop boost control using this 4 port valve.

I will also be converting all vacuum operated controls (HP-LP bypass, HP bypass and IWG) to electric.
Came up with a pretty simple scheme for that using linear actuators.

I figured I really need to learn the nitty gritty of closed loop control.
Just throwing random numbers in the p, i and d boxes will not teach me anything even if I get the magical combination in the first round.

So, I downloaded MATLAB. And, I am all over the interwebz to learn as much as I can about closed loop control systems.
I'm pretty sure I will figure it out without blowing up my engine.


The reason why I want to go with a closed loop - 4 port EBC system is losing pressure in the upper rev range.
A 3 port solenoid always provides pressure to the bottom port of the wg, and sometimes to the top chamber. This means pressure in top and bottom chambers will be equal at best, meaning the WG will only have its spring pressure to fight against the exhaust pressure in the manifold.
And that pressure eventually does overcome the spring and boost drops.
A 4 port solenoid loads the top chamber only if needed, and holds the WG shut, not allowing the boost to taper.

That is my theory.

That, and a 3" exhaust should let me hold 18 to 20 psi all the way to the top.
Then it will be a good time to dyno the car.

3 port is the way to go unless you want a large dynamic range. Control will never be as good with a 4 port due to... physics. With a 3 port, you want the spring to be sized such that the maximum relative boost is less than ~2.25 the springs rated WG pressure. An 11 psi spring is great for the range you are trying to hit.

Be aware that the PID in the MS is something called a "type C". The PID equations are essentially derived from the derivative of the traditional PID equation with the objective of removing the setpoint from the P term. If you want to write it up in MATLAB you will probably need to code it yourself, as I am not sure the MATLAB PID app has a type C version. The released MS 1.4 code has a pretty easy to follow algorithm that can easily be ported to MATLAB.

In for dyno :)

I am really not very happy with the 4 port MAC valve.

Modeling the control law in either continuous or discrete time (side note, is a megasquirt even deterministic for boost control?) in Matlab or SIMULINK should be realtively straight forward, but I am very doubtful MS has the data logging cajones or flexibility to carry out the experiments you need for a relatively complete System ID. Modeling ICEs can be a real intensive fair from what I understand.

In my 2¢ you'd probably be better off spending your time doing a really thorough job of a tuning recipe like Ziegler-Nichols.

Gents, I need your opinion on a curious/unpleasant phenomenon.

My engine shuts off unceremoniously at full load, full throttle, nearing redline.
I then have to cycle the key to fire it back up. Trying to bump start while the car is rolling without cycling the engine does not help.

This happened 3 times over the past 2 years, and the latest one was about a week ago.
I have no logs, neither can I log it, because trying to duplicate this condition produces no results.

My ECU must be resetting or completely shutting off under some extremely rare circumstances. That's all I can think of.
It's an "Enhanced" MS2 by Rev. The car has been running great with it since 2012.
I mean, I torture tested the car at the F1 track and this never happened there (OK, I did lose a cam sensor once on the track).

What do you think?
Where do I start chasing such an "ethereal" problem?

msq attached...

I had this happen to me in my Jeep during rush hour. 65MPH+, then nothing. Talk about a bad situation.

Turns out is was a bad crank angle sensor, and replacing it solved the problem.

80amp main fuse thing still good?

As far as I know.

My boost control problems are over.

First off, the 4 port solenoid was a waste of time. The main reason behind this is the lack of resolution in the Boost Control Duty Table for my case.
I have 2 turbos, boost comes on at almost idle, and has a tendency to spike pretty much at any rpm if left unchecked.

Also, I was hitting boost limit if I was just rolling on the throttle in 4th or 5th gear with the open loop setup. Had to do with the fact that the engine was not gaining revs fast enough to "spend" the amount of air generated by the turbo(s). If we adjusted the duty table to avoid this, full throttle boost had to be pretty low.

So, I went back to a 3 port solenoid, and turned everything down (way down) and drove the car that way for a couple days. Boring as hell.

My tuner friend (whom I mentioned a few times so far) suggested we hit the road and adjust my boost levels once and for all.
Filled up both tanks (gas and water) and hit the road. My friend opened up the laptop and said "time for closed loop".

I objected.
Because, I know setting up closed loop control is a hair pulling experience. It overshoots, undershoots, you pull PID values out of your ass, try and get it right, takes forever...

He insisted.

I just drove, following his instructions. About 15 minutes went by. He said we were done. I said get outta here.
So I took the car down to 1500 rpm in 4th and punched it... Rock solid 18 psi all the way. I tried rolling on the gas, same thing.
Not 17, not 19, exactly 18 psi. Damn.

I would never imagine it would be this easy. (My friend kept snickering and mocking me on the way back - he really is a good tuner)

The only thing that needs to be ironed out is the boost taper starting at about 5500 rpm... Goes down to 13 at redline.
I have a larger turbine and its housing on the shelf, and I will also be installing a 76 mm exhaust all the way, with a custom muffler.
That should help, if not solve the boost taper problem.

Needles to say, the car is much nicer to drive now.

We are Jelly. That is, those of us that spent lots of time and had lots of boost cuts occur while doing it.