gt28rs vs 19T vs 16g: getting parts ready
 

So I'm coming up on the buildup for my stock 1.6. I have the parts ready to build a turbo manifold but I haven't decided on a turbo flange yet.

I currently have a stock wrx turbo that probably needs a rebuild, but I'm going to upgrade it to a 19T or just get one of the 16g variants from Blouch Turbo, depending on the price. The good thing is that once the turbo setup is built around the wrx turbo, any turbo from Blouch will fit right in.

I have the chance to get a gt28rs with the .86ar for ~$500 with a welded wastegate flapper, so after all is said and done going back to an internal gate, it'll be about the same price as the wrx turbo setup.

I'm building the car for track duty, but it'd be nice to have some midrange grunt for low-speed hairpins. It'll also be a street car on occasion, so take that into consideration.

I know the gt28rs is "too big" for street duty, but for the price, that's why I'm looking at getting it. Opinions on the 19t or 16g's?

Thanks for the help!

I wouldn't say a gt28 is too big for street use. Your stock 1.6 may have some trouble spooling it, but if you have a proper exhaust, decent manifold, and a good EWG, you could probably see decent spool before 4k.

Hustler is making 12psi at 3100 rpm of something like that with that same turbo. Then again, he has 1.9l and baller hotside parts.

sigh. the gt2860 is a small turbo. the 1.6L wont have trouble spooling it. can you guys finally swallow that yet?

gurgling now...

WOW. Maybe the grand epiphany is coming.

the only issue might be the .86, but there is evidence here against it.


specifically:
http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/m...otta-dyno1.jpg

What like the sudden realization that I've been using a journal bearing turbo that's larger than a gt2860 for 5 years now without trouble spooling it?

Nope. But every time I tell someone that the turbo they're looking at is too small, the peanut gallery comes in and tells me I'm the one who's nuts.

well, it certainly ain't too small for a 250-300rwhp goal at least.

Sounds good. I think I'll pick up the gt28. A lot of people told me on another project that a gt35 was too big for my friend's 99 integra gsr ... but he's hitting 10psi at 4krpm on a stock motor with integra type r cams.

Should I do a ramhorn style or log style manifold with an external wastegate or replace the exhaust housing and run the internal gate?

compare the b16 head to a bp.

Don't ignore the DSM 16g. You can buy them used dirt cheap. I've bought several for different projects and paid $200-300. It's a great street turbo for the $$. I don't know why you don't see people use them more.

Lack of a quality off the shelf manifold comes to mind. Unfortunately you cant smash a td05 center section into a td04 hotside, otherwise I expect we'd see it quite a bit :).

How does a 2860 compare to the 2871? I can read the specs, but this is where my knowledge really lacks. It's a 28 series. Are they considered comparable, or not even close?

the 2860 has a 60mm compressor wheel, the 2871 a 71mm.

*cough*you mean b18*cough*

im not honda smart.

honda are also capable of reving to 9k so full boost by say 4500 is more exceptable when you have that extra 2000rpms

60RS has a pretty limited efficiency range. It's tapped out around 35lb/hr (~320whp), but it's very efficient when you're in that 14-18psi range.

Attachment 201245

71R has MUCH more headroom, at least another 70whp. It hits a little bit harder than the 60RS but stays efficient at higher boost and power levels.

Attachment 201246

On a 1.9 liter, the 60RS will come on pretty smoothly and make big torque from ~3500 on. The 71RS will come on a tiny bit more abruptly, but it's capable of much more torque than the 60RS can dish out. Neither will have the instant response of a 2560, but the 2560 can't produce a torque curve like a potato is capable of.

If you want 300whp and no more, get the potato. If you want 350whp+, get the 2871R. Either way, get the .86 housing.

I'd like to try a 2860RS .64 on a 1.6 - I bet it would be much better suited to the smaller motor.

This is with my China 2871 .64 at 16 psi with just an MBC. With my EBC I see 15 psi almost 500 rpm's sooner.

Attachment 201244
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Savington,
My 1.9 made 15psi at 4400rpm with the log manifold, it makes that at 3200rpm with the AF parts. If we're talking dynojet-hp, then I agree with a gt2860rs for up to 300whp, but you'll need more compressor if you want 300whp on a real dyno with a log manifold.

1.88 liter, ABSURDflow goodness, 2871R 52-trim .86 A/R, open exhaust, 21psi, stock intake manifold (chart was basically the same at 18psi, stock IM blows.)

Attachment 201243

True, I forget our hotparts are worth ~25whp :giggle:

There's at least a 48, 52, & 56 trim GT2871R as well, all with different compressor maps (obviously). So throw that wrench into the works too.

I mean just look at my dynos, more or less the same thing. Same compressor, slightly larger turbine. journal bearingz.

I never understood why one needs fast spool on the street, yet thats wat everyone says. The car will put about just fine off boost, the turbo is not much of a restriction under vacuum. If you want boost, downshift/learn to drive. Having driven a 2.4L car wth a 16G, it spooled too easaly. I dont need boost to get up to speed at a normal pace from a stop light yet it would. A turbo that spooled 1000 rpm later would have been great. Even on my 2L car with the same turbo and low 8.3:1 compression it spooled more often than I needed. It was neat to have the instant response, but the car did not need it and it did not make it significantly faster when being driven hard.

Now if you are atuoXing or on a tight track, then I can see where a low boost threshold and low transient response time is a big deal. But on the street if you are going fast you should be above 4K pretty much all the time anyway. As long as the lag is not bad getting onto the throttle in the high 3K range does it really matter if it spools at 3K or 3500? I am assuming though that 'on the street' does not involves some really slow tight corners. Even then I suspect a potato would be fine, but have 0 experience with it.

48 and 56 have the same height, the 52 stays efficient at slightly higher pressures but doesn't make as much ultimate power as the 56 trim (like 10-15whp). I did the 52trim.

Anyone have any 16g dyno's? I can't believe people are running chinease turbos when you get get DSM 16g's so cheap.

I guess I am different than everyone else cause I'd just weld my own manifold. I guess it helps to have a welder.

Do you guys really see that big a difference between the log manifolds and the "AF" designs? Anyone have a dyno comparing the 2 different manifolds?

You need to get on a dyno so I can see you rnumbers at 22 psi. I wish you had a 1.8 so I would have a better idea of what to expect on my car. I would like headroom to 350hp

Spare, I promise you, if you're not making your boost target by 3500rpm on a street DD miata, it takes all the fun out of it.

You may not believe me, but drive two stock miatas, one with a 2554 and the other with a 2860. Even if the 2860 makes 30rwhp more at the same boost level, you'll prefer scooting around in the 2554 setup.

I'm sure others will agree.


see how a 2554 and a 2871 would compare:

http://www.boostedmiata.com/gallery2...serialNumber=2


the larger turbo really only benefits above 6K....when's the last time you were going around a fun corner on the street at 6K?

^ That is really good to know. Thanks.

When I stop being an unemployed loser and get my damn car, I have an E316G and TiAL 38MM literally sitting on my shelf. 0 shaft play, the turbo had no trouble making 20+ psig on my Laser. It's driving me absolutely bat-shit. Whats worse is that I am headed back down to PHX early next week to help my buddy put my old Eagle/Wiseco 4G63 into his '91 Talon. That car ran low 13s all day with 90 psig compression accross the board. My motor makes about 165 IIRC. One good 3rd gear pull in that car an I will either

A) Start crying like a bitch.
B) Man up, get a car, and put my shit on it.
C) Steal someone elses car.


I am leaning toward C.

End Hijack. Sorry folks.

2554R is a FUN street turbo. It's a lot of fun to roll off a stoplight, plant your foot at 2500rpm, and immediately get kicked in the rump. Having owned the 2554 and the 2871, the 54 is a WAY better street turbo. It's a better track turbo, too, TBQH. (too bad it won't make ~400whp.)

this is what tim saying dawg.

I'll compare Shueind's dyno to mine. I've driven his 1.8L a bunch of times and really like it over mine on the street, get on the highway and let hit redline and I miss my dinky 1.6L

http://www.boostedmiata.com/gallery2...serialNumber=2


what really ruins you is a good absurd setup that has the of best of both worlds:
http://www.boostedmiata.com/gallery2...serialNumber=1

I am with Braineak, It all depends how you drive & what you are out to do. If you drive the car every day you really appreciate the quick response.

I noticed this when I drove my friends car (turbo VW 2.0 8v) a t3 60 trim vs my car with a 16v head and a t3t4. I had about 40 whp if you look at the dyno, but his car is way more fun for me to drive. Just roll on the gas at any rpm and you go. Must easier to modulate the throttle in corners too especially with front wheel drive.

If you drive everywhere wide open, do a lot of track days, street racing, etc the bigger turbo is nice, but for a daily, I'd rather have a nice fat turque curve. Just my $0.02

What is the set up on that red dyno above? I really like that torque/power curve? (well if you can call it a curve, its more of a line.)

My 2554R setup made STIs feel laggy.

I love my T25. I have thought about going to a T3 setup similar to Brain's but I think I enjoy having a small turbo more. My car is my DD and plenty fast for me right now even with my MBC disconnected. I mean, on stock wastegate i'm already fighting for traction with my torsen in 1st and 2nd. I never even have a chance to get to WOT before I get wheel spin. At 12-14psi my 1st and 2nd gears feel completely useless.

My next upgrade is likely going to be welding the IWG shut and getting an EWG hooked up.

wrong.

some hondas are capable of revving to 9, most are not.

the B18B from the LS integra is very similar to the mazda BP in power output, power band, rod ratio, etc. It limited to about 7500 rpm on the stock bottom end.
people still run 30r and even 35r turbos on them.
the miata community is phobic of large turbos, there is no denying it.

Is this a sneak peak at whats to come 400 whp?

Welcome to "happy medium" land, enjoy your stay.

I should note that "happy medium" land sucks. In ABSURDflow land you get to short shift into 5th at 3500rpm and throttle steer, lol.

With the Tein Flex I have traction with crappy Nitto Neogens in 2nd and lots and lots of power and torque.

They are pretty much just drag racers but also consider that even the B18b head still flows A LOT better than any head that goes on a miata.

For the most part yes, but when you look at dynos you see that many people running t3/t04's still have pretty good low end. As far as the B18b head flowing better, Im sure it flows better, but really not that much better.

i'm on rs-2s in 40* weather which might have something to do with it.

not really, all you would need to rev that to 8200 is b16a or b18c head swap, and with the type r cams springs and retainers or the type r valve train swap mention in the post i was reffering to 9k is common. b18a and all of the b20 blocks going past 8k is not recomended, but b18a1 and b18b and all the factory b series twin cam vtec engine are more than able. And no i'm not a honda fan anymore but i do still work at a honda dealer.

This Saturday! Same dyno.
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300tq or bust.

Wow, shouldn't have brought up the Honda =\ Anyways, I just got home from the local miata shop and the head dude happened to have a 1.6 head that he's been working. There's quite a bit of metal missing from the intake and exhaust ports compared to a stock 1.6. Should help with spool and power, regardless of turbo choice.

Considering the way I drive, wanting to make sure I don't drop out of boost between shifts, and wanting the ability of 300hp, the gt28rs is probably going to get the nod.

Thanks for the help!

If that your guess?
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I made 305tq at 18psi. If you can't match that at 22psi there's a large quantity of fail in the .64 housing, lack of displacement, or lack of flow ABSURDity.

Well there's definitely lack of displacement....... 1.6 bored .20 over
Lack of absurd flow with my bagi cast mani and bell mouth 2.5" dp

I'm pretty happy with how the turbo is performing, going from 16 psi to 22 with meth made a HUGE difference according to my butt dyno and the fact that I can spin tire thru 2nd gear.


I was going to be happy with 280/250 but you now have my expectations up.
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The question i have: what would your numbers translate to a .20 over 1.8 with similar manifold and exhaust. if i can only get to 300hp i'll be disappointed. since i have put so much money into this motor. I'd want to put a bigger turbo on, but like brain said; late spool will start to kill fun. What are the specs on the 3071?. If spelling sucks i apologize. i cant see what i'm typing because my phone keyboard is in the way. F***ing awsome levnubin!. Give that dyno hell. i'm counting on you to put up big numbers.j
Alright, I tried to clean up the spelling

OP: Is this on a 100% stock 1.6? Or is the motor going to be built?

bored at work much?

All you gays building cars with a 1.6, internal gate, or cast manifold need to get jobs.

Or you can just redistribute your wealth like some other dude I know of.............
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Are you using 2554 as per your sig? Stock IM? Really expect 300 from that setup? You and I seem to be on the same track, time-wise, on our builds. I should have my built .5mm (.020) overbored 1.8/'00 head back in like 2 weeks. I'm on 2560, no port work, stock IM, tubular ex mani. I'll be fueling with E85. If I get 300 I will probably suck my own cock. Maybe I am wrong-headed in sticking with the tiny turbo, but I am looking for instatorque from <3000 pulling second gear out of turn-around cones.

I'm looking for chicken to flip.

Currently on 2554, but buying the same turbo levnubin is using.

:bowrofl:

I was waiting for a friend at a beer joint. I just can't stay away from this place. I love you guys :love:

Any breast?
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