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Old 11-04-2009, 05:57 PM   #1
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Default Help me decide which turbo/mani for my build

I do 6-8 track days a year. The car is street driven in between, but is not an obligate daily since I have another beater for that. I do intend to keep the car streetable, but track performance is the priority and I am willing to spool later than 1800 rpm in order to not run out of steam up top.

I've been 'squirted for about 18 months and have COPs in the works and 550s in a box so fuel & ignition should be good to go. Also have an ACT XT and lightweight flywheel, in boxes. I'll DIY an IC and will run some version of a 3" exhaust.

At first I'd want to keep power in a range that would be friendly to the stock internals and 5-spd, say 220-240 whp. I'd be happy staying at that level for perhaps 6-12 months or longer while I get some seat time with the new power and also save up for forged internals and a 6-spd. Ultimately I think I'd be happy in the 275 whp range, but I won't really know until I'm there. Following that plan I'll be running on two different tiers of power, but I'm thinking a GT2860RS would suit the overall goals. (?)

Reading all the issues with stud failures on track, and helping neo swap out his motor and seeing how easy it was to R&R the turbo, I'm really thinking of going with V-bands. I'm kind of waiting to see if Hustler & Sav's issues with their TiAL V-band housings falling off and destroying CHRAs are solved by safety wire and/or voodoo metallurgy, but I'm leaning towards V-bands.

I guess I'd just run a wimpy wastegate spring at first to keep the power down. I know 6-ish psi out of a disco potato seems like a huge sacrifice of spool time for the given power, but if I start with a smaller turbo then there's a bunch of stuff that I'd have to buy twice and that just doesn't appeal to me. Has anybody run the 'tater at lower power levels? I'm hoping it wouldn't totally suck but I don't know.

This build won't happen immediately, but I'm trying to firm up my plans somewhat ahead of time so I can be on the lookout for deals on parts. The most pressing question is whether a GT2860RS would suit my goals, because I may have found a deal (still need to check it out) and I'm debating whether to pounce.
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Old 11-04-2009, 06:33 PM   #2
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275 whp will turn into 350+ trust me, just go with a turbo where you have room to grow. Maybe look beyond a GT series turbo? Or if you decide a GT series turbo maybe go with a 3076R with a smaller exhaust side housing that can always be swapped to a bigger one with different power goals. They're are Holsets, BorgWarners, PTE Billet wheels etc. which can all be a good match.
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Old 11-04-2009, 06:35 PM   #3
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get a hold of turbo tim or artech for the mani
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Old 11-04-2009, 07:27 PM   #4
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Eeenteresting that you post here, and you're pretty close to me! I've got TurboTim's latest setup: A/C, PS, and ABS....AND the Racing Beat front sway bar brace-friendly setup for a 1997 1.8 liter.

I'll be dynoing in DE next weekend as well.

Car will be autox'd this weekend at the CDC event in Bowie, on 11/7 (I won't be driving it).

Braineack's borrowed it to tweak the tune. I've got some Megsquirt tweaking to get done on the thing....but it's a beast.

And I'm coming from the modded Subaru world. I sold my 04 WRX wagon (2.5liter dyno'd 311whp/310tq) and this feels MUCH faster. I've driven Subarus all the way up to 600+whp and feel this car is somewhere in the 375-400whp Subaru "feel".

PM me if you'd like to meet up for a drive!

BTW: Paul (did initial tuning) said mine feels faster than ArtiePartie's and slower than his. Artie is making 270+whp/260+tq? Paul is 310whp/260tq? So, if you're comfortable w/ 270-300 whp at 14-15lbs of boost, then you'll love this setup. I'm running the GT2560R. Spools really good!

-Ed
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Old 11-05-2009, 12:01 AM   #5
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I got my Holset for free from a dodge guy, If you know someone into diesels you might want to ask them if they have a stocker kicking around.
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Old 11-05-2009, 12:11 AM   #6
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I'd run the tater and not go bigger. Unless you plan to go over 300whp. This is not a drag car, it is a track car.

My turbo is similar to a tater. At least that's what I'm told by a few turbo gurus here. Power really starts to come on around 4k in the lower gears. Higher gears its in the mid to upper 3k. Felt great at 10psi, then I went to 12 and a bit more tuning and LOVED the power. It made me giggle and pulled away steadily from stage2 sti's and bolt on evo's.
Now with better internals I plan to try 14-15psi. I'll bet it will make me giggle even more

Id listen to saint foo if I were you. Meet up with him and drive his car. That will give you an idea of what you want more than all of us put together.
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Old 11-05-2009, 02:01 AM   #7
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disclaimer: besides the 1.8, I did have a 99 head sent to the machine shop for: mild port, decked, JDM intake cam install, Supertech valve springs, etc. So, that probably cost me about $1700 altogether on top of the build. Apparently a good 99 head is a good building block for higher HP. I also am using the BEGI intake manifold. I've got mixed feelings about it. The quality control could've been better....but nothing a little elbow grease can't fix. Corky was really cool to talk to on the phone and was frank about power expectations. He said unless I was planning for 270+whp, then don't bother, it's a waste of money (something to that effect). In fact, I would lose a couple HP up until about 270whp....but really, that's no biggie.

Ask Braineack, TurboTim, Paul, ArtiePartie....the car feels effin' fast! If I were to do it all over again, I'd start with a 94/95 and forgo the OBDII parallel setup that I'm running. I'd go full standalone Megasquirt. However, as you know in VA, we gotta deal w/ emissions. Since I'm OBDII, I wanted to retain the ECU and have the MS work in parallel. I can't thank Scott, Paul, Tim, and his Dad's shop for all they did! Not to mention Artie.


EDIT: Plus Tim warranties his stuff. I'm sure other vendors do to some extent...but just meeting the guy and hearing good things from Braineack gave me the warm-and-fuzzy. I think it's about a 3 1/2 - 4 hour drive from our area. Not too shabby. Maybe you'd like to meet up for some wings/beer and discuss build? I did a fair amount of research and let them sway me in which ever direction made sense. I only had several requirements that I wanted them to do (keep A/C, keep ABS, use the bigger IC that I ordered, etc).
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Old 11-05-2009, 08:51 AM   #8
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Smallest turbo that can be setup with a tial v-band turbine is the GT2860RS. It's looking less and less likely that I'll be bringing a v-band setup with this turbo to the dyno day. Boooo.
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Old 11-05-2009, 09:30 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saint_foo View Post
Braineack's borrowed it to tweak the tune. I've got some Megsquirt tweaking to get done on the thing....but it's a beast.
My car feels so slow now, thanks. :(

Scott are you coming up to the dyno again this year?
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Old 11-05-2009, 10:12 AM   #10
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Your goals and desires sound a lot like mine. I'm doing about 240whp/230wtq (Mustang) currently and very happy with the output. Its really easy to drive and very fast on the track. I plan on putting the boost-controller on soon so I can jack-off at the track at 11.5psi, then run 18psi on the trophy-laps.

V-bands were worth every cent. I've taken the turbo out in less than 15-minutes and I'm not embellishing. There are 2-joints that I haven't touched at the track in 4-events or roughly 9-hours of seat time. The bolt-drama is my fault. If I would have safety wired, although the bolts would have stretched or loosened, they would not loosen enough to let the CHRA die, and will probably still seal-up and work flawlessly. Inconel wire is going in next.

I cannot say enough positive things about the Absurflow parts and Tim's desire to make parts that work. He seems pretty committed to seeing his parts work and I wish I had given him money sooner.
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Old 11-05-2009, 01:05 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saint_foo View Post
Eeenteresting that you post here, and you're pretty close to me! ... PM me if you'd like to meet up for a drive!
We've actually met before. You may not remember since it's been quite a while, but I pitched in with your roll bar install. That's assuming you're the same Ed, which I'm 99% sure you are. I will definitely be interested in getting a ride-along at some point.

Quote:
BTW: Paul (did initial tuning) said mine feels faster than ArtiePartie's and slower than his. Artie is making 270+whp/260+tq? Paul is 310whp/260tq? So, if you're comfortable w/ 270-300 whp at 14-15lbs of boost, then you'll love this setup. I'm running the GT2560R. Spools really good!
Quote:
Originally Posted by TurboTim View Post
Smallest turbo that can be setup with a tial v-band turbine is the GT2860RS.
Yeah the Absurdflow setups produce awesome numbers with a 2560. If there was a V-band housing for GT25xx turbos I might go that route, but alas there is not. Last I heard, the guys with Absurdflow flanged setups weren't really beating on their cars for 30-40 minute track sessions, but I could be wrong. Any updates on this? Ed, you gonna track that thing?

Quote:
I only had several requirements that I wanted them to do (keep A/C, keep ABS, use the bigger IC that I ordered, etc).
I'm going to keep A/C for the foreseeable future. It will still be street driven, plus I don't have a tow rig and will be driving this thing to the track. No A/C for a 5 hour drive down to VIR in August in a black car with a black hardtop is not appealing. I'll deal with the excess weight and queer charge pipe & IC placement. I am considering ditching power steering however, I just need to drive a depowered car around the block to be certain.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hustler View Post
Your goals and desires sound a lot like mine.
Yeah, they are. In fact your escapades with buying expensive things twice are a big part of why I'm probably gonna go v-band from the start.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hustler View Post
... The bolt-drama is my fault.
Maybe but there is obviously some design defect behind the identical "CHRA fall off" failure that 2/3 of you v-band guys have seen. I haven't seen thesnowboarder post of his failing yet but I could have missed it. I'm really hoping that safety wire does the trick, because I want y'all to have this **** solved by the time I build mine.

Quote:
EDIT: Plus Tim warranties his stuff. I'm sure other vendors do to some extent...but just meeting the guy and hearing good things from Braineack gave me the warm-and-fuzzy.
Quote:
I cannot say enough positive things about the Absurflow parts and Tim's desire to make parts that work. He seems pretty committed to seeing his parts work and I wish I had given him money sooner.
I've met Tim too, at the dyno day back in May. Nice guy, quasi-local, and he obviously builds good stuff, so he'll probably get my money when the time comes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Braineack View Post
Scott are you coming up to the dyno again this year?
Looks like I might have to. Only thing is the day before (Friday the 13th) is the day the Mighty Guillotine of Downsizing will fall at my wife's company, and nobody knows for sure whose heads will hit the baskets. If she keeps her job I should be good to proceed with gathering parts at a moderate pace, otherwise I'll have to put this off even longer than I already have.

But yeah, I want to see Ed's car, and see what neo's puts down, and if my life doesn't suck that day maybe chat with Tim a little bit.

BTdubz my car is currently undriveable due to a snapped metric-to-NPT flare adapter while installing the FM prop valve. It seems I'm not the only one posting in this thread who has had that problem. Replacement is on the way so I should have that junk buttoned up this weekend. Allegedly they are now shipping with tread sealant LOL.
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Old 11-05-2009, 01:11 PM   #12
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BTdubz my car is currently undriveable due to a snapped metric-to-NPT flare adapter while installing the FM prop valve. It seems I'm not the only one posting in this thread who has had that problem. Replacement is on the way so I should have that junk buttoned up this weekend. Allegedly they are now shipping with tread sealant LOL.

Human Being + Name of Scott = massive torquing force
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Old 11-05-2009, 01:13 PM   #13
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We've actually met before. You may not remember since it's been quite a while, but I pitched in with your roll bar install. That's assuming you're the same Ed, which I'm 99% sure you are. I will definitely be interested in getting a ride-along at some point.

I have proof you met in my garage too:



look at you two love birds standing next to each other holding hands.

This picture is further evidence I always forget to drain the oil before pulling a motor....ask Neo about that one.
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Old 11-05-2009, 03:20 PM   #14
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Last I heard, the guys with Absurdflow flanged setups weren't really beating on their cars for 30-40 minute track sessions, but I could be wrong.

I am considering ditching power steering however, I just need to drive a depowered car around the block to be certain.

Maybe but there is obviously some design defect behind the identical "CHRA fall off" failure that 2/3 of you v-band guys have seen. I haven't seen thesnowboarder post of his failing yet but I could have missed it. I'm really hoping that safety wire does the trick, because I want y'all to have this **** solved by the time I build mine.
By flanged you're referring to standard t25 flanges, right?

Safety-wire will work to keep everything sealed and in place, the bolts just turn 1/16th-rotation.

Power steering will just boil over and over-power steering feel. Depowered racks are awesome.
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Old 11-05-2009, 03:39 PM   #15
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I am considering ditching power steering however, I just need to drive a depowered car around the block to be certain.
just ask I wont mind. You can rock out to MJ while you take it for a spin.
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Old 11-05-2009, 03:43 PM   #16
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By flanged you're referring to standard t25 flanges, right?
Yeah, I was wondering if any of Tim's T25 flanged setups have been track-abused by Paul, Artie et al. I'm sure the mani will hold up fine. Mostly I'm curious if the turbo:mani studs still have issues with stretching when the flange is not oriented vertically.
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Old 11-05-2009, 03:45 PM   #17
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just ask I wont mind. You can rock out to MJ while you take it for a spin.
In for some Smooth Criminal. I'll bug you sometime after I fix my brakes.
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Old 11-05-2009, 05:39 PM   #18
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Ahhh! I thought I met you before. Sorry, with NASIOC NoVA meets that I used to set up, CDC autoxes where I'm an organizers, and being 40 years old, I forget people's names/faces pretty quick. It takes a few times for me.




BTW, what's the big hard on for V-bands? I did a quick search and it seems like that it would lead to higher probability of loosening up/disconnecting at the downpipe versus standard 4-5 bolts/studs/nuts.

Do certain people tend to do maintenance, move the turbo, swap it out, etc versus someone like me who doesn't foresee any need for it? I guess one thing would be nice is a different flange design to the DP. Something that doesn't restrict or make it hard to connect/disconnect or seal. Just my .02 worth.
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Old 11-05-2009, 05:57 PM   #19
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so long as the flanges dont warp, v-bands make a heck of a lot of sense.
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Old 11-06-2009, 01:11 PM   #20
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so long as the flanges dont warp, v-bands make a heck of a lot of sense.
I just talked to Brandon from TurboXS and he basically set me straight. Apparently it's a TON easier to work on a car if you only have one bolt to worry about versus 5. Also, the basic design is pretty darn sturdy. Ahhhh.
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