help planning a build, input appreciated!
12-21-2016, 05:20 AM
#1
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help planning a build, input appreciated!
Hi! So, basically, I would like to do some work on my 04 MSM. The car is pretty much stock, maybe around 51k miles or so and is one of 3 miatas I own currently. My others are both NA, and one is down for the count till I can find another body for it. WA drivers suck. Bad.
To the point, my MSM is slow. There's just an itch for more power and better acceleration that I'm dying to get rid of and till I can talk the girlfriend into letting me buy something ridiculous like a 2015 viper gts, well, I'm gonna have to make do with what I've got. That said, I'm pretty close to biting the bullet on an FM II turbo kit as well as a 3" exhaust setup. I'm sitting on a "happy meal" clutch kit & lightweight flywheel at the moment due to a questionable throwout bearing but that'll be handled relatively soon. I'm guessing I'm probably looking at something like $7K for the kit & exhaust, not counting the clutch & flywheel and ideally I'm shooting for something around 250+ hp.
Playing with these types of upgrades and even a forced induction system like this are all pretty foreign to me and, well, this is the place to be from what I've read while lurking over the years. I'm primarily looking for a dose of realism on what's involved with these types of hp goals out of a stock engine on the MSM. I'm not exactly clear on how reliable the engine internals will be above 250 hp long term and furthermore (and this is where this sub forum comes in) I'm not exactly sure that an all in one boxed kit, while convenient, is the most cost effective way to go about performing these upgrades and achieving these types of power goals. I guess I'd really like some opinions, thoughts, suggestions or comments on what might be a good way to go about building a parts list and why you'd choose what you'd choose over something else. I have read 2346257234 posts and its not like there's a single, definitive solution for getting more power out of our cars short of more air + more fuel = more power.
If anyone has any links to any similar builds, that'd be cool too - I found nothing that translated directly via searching and really, I'm by no means knowledgeable enough to turn down any input at all at this point!
One final foot note: I'd say money is no object but that's not true at all. The one saving grace here is that I have nothing but time and I'm more than happy buying parts here and there to make the overall project more robust and reliable while still minimizing the financial impact when and wherever possible. We all work, surely everyone understands.
Now that I've said all that... thoughts?
To the point, my MSM is slow. There's just an itch for more power and better acceleration that I'm dying to get rid of and till I can talk the girlfriend into letting me buy something ridiculous like a 2015 viper gts, well, I'm gonna have to make do with what I've got. That said, I'm pretty close to biting the bullet on an FM II turbo kit as well as a 3" exhaust setup. I'm sitting on a "happy meal" clutch kit & lightweight flywheel at the moment due to a questionable throwout bearing but that'll be handled relatively soon. I'm guessing I'm probably looking at something like $7K for the kit & exhaust, not counting the clutch & flywheel and ideally I'm shooting for something around 250+ hp.
Playing with these types of upgrades and even a forced induction system like this are all pretty foreign to me and, well, this is the place to be from what I've read while lurking over the years. I'm primarily looking for a dose of realism on what's involved with these types of hp goals out of a stock engine on the MSM. I'm not exactly clear on how reliable the engine internals will be above 250 hp long term and furthermore (and this is where this sub forum comes in) I'm not exactly sure that an all in one boxed kit, while convenient, is the most cost effective way to go about performing these upgrades and achieving these types of power goals. I guess I'd really like some opinions, thoughts, suggestions or comments on what might be a good way to go about building a parts list and why you'd choose what you'd choose over something else. I have read 2346257234 posts and its not like there's a single, definitive solution for getting more power out of our cars short of more air + more fuel = more power.
If anyone has any links to any similar builds, that'd be cool too - I found nothing that translated directly via searching and really, I'm by no means knowledgeable enough to turn down any input at all at this point!
One final foot note: I'd say money is no object but that's not true at all. The one saving grace here is that I have nothing but time and I'm more than happy buying parts here and there to make the overall project more robust and reliable while still minimizing the financial impact when and wherever possible. We all work, surely everyone understands.
Now that I've said all that... thoughts?
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12-21-2016, 06:35 AM
#2
mkturbo.com
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First and foremost you need to get rid of the stock ecu and switch to a Megasquirt. Below is a dyno of a stock MSM with only changing out to a MSPNP Pro that DIYAutoTune sells. It would be the first thing I do if i ever got a MSM.
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12-21-2016, 12:20 PM
#3
Hello there fellow MSM owner. If I were you I would skip the FMII at the moment. I would first get a new ECU like Shuiend suggested. It completely changes the character of the car and allows you to up the boost a bit. The stock MSM tune is ******* garbage. The next thing I would do is get a bigger better intercooler, aluminum radiator, and full exhaust. Most people will now suggest the vibrant 12800 for the intercooler as it is a great price for a great quality core: https://www.amazon.com/Vibrant-Perfo.../dp/B0018036DO
There are quite a few aluminum radiator options from ebay units to 949 and trackspeed engineering that all work but the more expensive units can stand up to track abuse. For Street use only the ebay radiators work fine. For the exhaust I would tell you to skip the FM exhaust and get something custom or from ARTech with the MT approved muffler. This is the Magnaflow 12579. It is a big muffler but it is 3" and flows well while keeping the car quiet.
To be honest, without building the engine there is no real point in going beyond these modifications as they will put you around 220hp and keep the stock internals reliable. You will spend a ton less than $7k if you go this route and the car will be so much more fun and reliable than it is now. If you want more power than this once you get to this point, you'll need to start building and engine on the side and that is an entirely different discussion.
EDIT: I almost forgot. You will need new injectors for more headroom. The stock injectors will struggle to keep up with more power. I would just get something plug and play from ID. Anything EV14 so they idle well.
There are quite a few aluminum radiator options from ebay units to 949 and trackspeed engineering that all work but the more expensive units can stand up to track abuse. For Street use only the ebay radiators work fine. For the exhaust I would tell you to skip the FM exhaust and get something custom or from ARTech with the MT approved muffler. This is the Magnaflow 12579. It is a big muffler but it is 3" and flows well while keeping the car quiet.
To be honest, without building the engine there is no real point in going beyond these modifications as they will put you around 220hp and keep the stock internals reliable. You will spend a ton less than $7k if you go this route and the car will be so much more fun and reliable than it is now. If you want more power than this once you get to this point, you'll need to start building and engine on the side and that is an entirely different discussion.
EDIT: I almost forgot. You will need new injectors for more headroom. The stock injectors will struggle to keep up with more power. I would just get something plug and play from ID. Anything EV14 so they idle well.
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12-21-2016, 01:23 PM
#4
Short list because I am not as smart but still want to help.
1.) ECU - PnP is your friend, pro-version: https://www.diyautotune.com/product/...daspeed-miata/
2.) Intercooler that Ryan suggested. Or a Precision 350hp core. Precision 350HP Intercooler
3.) Radiator, figure out track or not, for track use TSE. Trackspeed Dual Core Race Radiator
3b.) Can use stock fan or a 13" SPAL fan, only need one with the monster radiator.
4.) Full exhaust from ArTech is reasonable and well built, happy to help you over email.
5.) ID1000 - Injector Dynamics fuel injectors - Miata
6.) Professional tune, EBC? Profit and enjoy.
1.) ECU - PnP is your friend, pro-version: https://www.diyautotune.com/product/...daspeed-miata/
2.) Intercooler that Ryan suggested. Or a Precision 350hp core. Precision 350HP Intercooler
3.) Radiator, figure out track or not, for track use TSE. Trackspeed Dual Core Race Radiator
3b.) Can use stock fan or a 13" SPAL fan, only need one with the monster radiator.
4.) Full exhaust from ArTech is reasonable and well built, happy to help you over email.
5.) ID1000 - Injector Dynamics fuel injectors - Miata
6.) Professional tune, EBC? Profit and enjoy.
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12-22-2016, 04:29 AM
#6
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Heresy! Heh, nah, I'm the diy type. Wrenching is something I'd rather do myself. I find the results to be more rewarding and besides, I think the money I'd pay for labor to a shop is better spent on more toys. =) Something about working on your car vs paying someone else to work on your car. At least if something goes wrong, I know it's because I f'd it up and don't have to worry about finger pointing and dealing with arguing with a shop. I've had an outside perspective on those types of interactions and that's not something I plan to ever have to deal with if I have a say in the matter.
As for the upgrade list, I've noticed everyone seems to prefer the megasquirt solution over others -- forgive my ignorance but is there a reason the megasquirt option is preferred over stuff like the hydra, rumors about them shutting down aside of course..?
Disregard, just found the installation documentation. "PNP" really is plug and play. nice!
Also, lets say I start there (which really seems to make the most sense -- after a high rpm fuel cut and engine shutdown once and only once, I'd really like that to not happen again. damn near had to replace my seat and pants...) what can I expect with regards to installation? Is it a relatively straight forward process or will I have to splice a bunch of crap into the OEM harness? I'd really rather not cut things up if I can help it but if necessary, so be it. I'm more than adept with a soldering iron so it really doesn't bother me too much, it's just more work and time due to the fact that I'm way obsessive compulsive about how I solder wires into a harness.
Second, and arguably most important, Say I've managed to get the megasquirt installed, loaded base maps, car runs, etc. -- what's the learning curve like for tuning? Ideally I'd like to at least get the basics down and get the thing "close" before I take the car in to a shop and have someone work on it there. Long term, I'd like to handle it all myself aside from dyno access, which would complicate things a little but is by no means impossible.
Lastly, I can't imagine any aftermarket solution is OBD compliant. Where I live, emissions testing is required every other year -- though I have a way around this if necessary, what'd be required to get the car "legal" for emissions testing after the fact? From what I've read, it's a matter of reinstalling the OEM ECU and switching the injectors and... that's it? Seems almost too simple, especially after eventually upgrading damn near every power component aside from the engine itself.
As for the upgrade list, I've noticed everyone seems to prefer the megasquirt solution over others -- forgive my ignorance but is there a reason the megasquirt option is preferred over stuff like the hydra, rumors about them shutting down aside of course..?
Disregard, just found the installation documentation. "PNP" really is plug and play. nice!
Second, and arguably most important, Say I've managed to get the megasquirt installed, loaded base maps, car runs, etc. -- what's the learning curve like for tuning? Ideally I'd like to at least get the basics down and get the thing "close" before I take the car in to a shop and have someone work on it there. Long term, I'd like to handle it all myself aside from dyno access, which would complicate things a little but is by no means impossible.
Lastly, I can't imagine any aftermarket solution is OBD compliant. Where I live, emissions testing is required every other year -- though I have a way around this if necessary, what'd be required to get the car "legal" for emissions testing after the fact? From what I've read, it's a matter of reinstalling the OEM ECU and switching the injectors and... that's it? Seems almost too simple, especially after eventually upgrading damn near every power component aside from the engine itself.
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12-22-2016, 09:25 AM
#7
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Second, and arguably most important, Say I've managed to get the megasquirt installed, loaded base maps, car runs, etc. -- what's the learning curve like for tuning? Ideally I'd like to at least get the basics down and get the thing "close" before I take the car in to a shop and have someone work on it there. Long term, I'd like to handle it all myself aside from dyno access, which would complicate things a little but is by no means impossible.
Lastly, I can't imagine any aftermarket solution is OBD compliant. Where I live, emissions testing is required every other year -- though I have a way around this if necessary, what'd be required to get the car "legal" for emissions testing after the fact? From what I've read, it's a matter of reinstalling the OEM ECU and switching the injectors and... that's it? Seems almost too simple, especially after eventually upgrading damn near every power component aside from the engine itself.
However, as a first time user of MS3 I can say this:
It has taken me 12 months of on-and-off tuning to fine tune idle, cold start, EAE to get things now very close to OEM. Driveability is great, but when cold, I still sometimes have to crank 3 times (that is what I'm working on now), and I cannot drive right off without showing lean (drives OK, just not perfect) unless I idle 30 seconds when at 50F. [I know I should let it warm some, but I am comparing against my Camry]. Some things just take time to understand the inter-relationships of settings, and just how many settings are available on a MS3. Then, when you are about there, a new FW rev comes into play (if you wish for it to).
However, if you want to take to a tuner, then you need at most a month to get the fuel table set up for waste gate at operating temperature. You don't need yet to care about cold start, warm-up, and idle quality for dyno setting the timing.
And as one that is not from a state that cares one bit (no personal experience). On the switch back:
It depends on the how close the visual is. On MSM that has a turbo, even that should not be a problem. You will also have to have kept the O2 sensors installed, and add back the intake. It also means that you have to use pigtails for things like IAT sensors in order to make the switchback. In other words, un-molested factory harness.
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12-22-2016, 10:14 AM
#8
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The learning curve for tuning is like running face first into a brick wall. Though after a bit you figure out how to climb over it and run face first into another.
Overall though, I never had a point where my car was not driveable. The base maps and autotune are decent enough to at least keep it on the road.
Steady state cruise and driving are actually fairly easy to tune. It is the warm up, starts, ASE, and restarts that are hard.
Overall though, I never had a point where my car was not driveable. The base maps and autotune are decent enough to at least keep it on the road.
Steady state cruise and driving are actually fairly easy to tune. It is the warm up, starts, ASE, and restarts that are hard.
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12-22-2016, 12:52 PM
#9
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I'm a bit farther along with my MSM and Shuiend's advice is good and you should take it. The PNP is pretty decent (starts first crank on stock injectors) and if I could do things over I would install that first and learn to tinker with MS on an otherwise stock car for a while. 5 months into it and my only issues now are fine-tuning for load at idle from FM cross flow fans and dialing in closed loop boost control. With that being said I could have made a lot of progress faster if I had asked more questions on the forum, there are a lot of really knowledgeable people on here. For example I tuned fuel in circles all summer because I didn't know to put MAT correction at 100% and use EGO correction instead. Every time it got really hot my tune would be crap, I'd tweak and then start it up the next day and not understand why it was crap again. Ask lots of questions. Happy to share any of my findings if you go this route. Read 18psi's thread on this. Also if you buy the DIY they support you via email. This bailed me out a few times.
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12-22-2016, 01:54 PM
#10
I think which EMS you choose is really a matter of preference. I chose Megasquirt because of this forum and the info I can find here. I just ordered a DIYPNP because I can solder and wanted to keep cost down. I did some searching on this forum and saw people achieving power levels similar to my goals with the MS2 or MSPNP2.
stalfos, are your emission regulations more relaxed than California's? I guarantee a 2004 vehicle cannot get a passing smog inspection in CA with an aftermarket EMS. (under normal non-trickery circumstances, that is). I'm planning to smog my 1994 in April and then throw all the turbo stuff on. I'll have 2 years of bliss that way.
stalfos, are your emission regulations more relaxed than California's? I guarantee a 2004 vehicle cannot get a passing smog inspection in CA with an aftermarket EMS. (under normal non-trickery circumstances, that is). I'm planning to smog my 1994 in April and then throw all the turbo stuff on. I'll have 2 years of bliss that way.
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