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How to Turbocharge your NA for 2k, build with TONNES of pics and info.
6 Attachment(s)
Gday,
So I opened my mouth on the Aus forum and said I would turbo someones NA for 2k, just so they didnt buy ITBs. So here we are. This is for everyone who is wondering, and all of the blokes who swear black and blue its impossible. This is for everyone who says you cannot do it 'right' for under 5000 etc etc :mrgreen: In this thread I will go through all the steps to build a basic, Greddy style system, done properly, with no corners cut for a big improvement in power and much more torque. It will be updated as the progress happens. This car is 100% stock except a 2" exhaust and intake, the only part that will remain is the catback, this setup would work on a stock exhaust, but we have the 2" so we will use it. It will use a Log manifold for reliability, spool, its small size and price. It will use a Garrett T02, which owes me about 80 dollars, and has a brand new never used CHRA (Centre housing, rotating assembly) so its vital moving parts are brand spankers. A used T25 or t28 or TD04 from a wrx could be used, all of these are available used for a couple of hundred dollars in good nick from ebay and the forums. It will use good quality oil feed and return, and a 2.5" downpipe that will bolt to a stock exhaust, although this car has a 2" straight through SS system already. It will not have an intercooler or blow off valve, and as a result boost will be kept sensible, and expect a little turbo flutter (also known as 'dose') on throttle lift off. Top these basic reliable parts off with a brand new MegaSquirt Plug and Play 2 and you have a very quick, completely lag free daily, thats quiet, great value, OEM reliable and can be reverted to stock in an hour. Upgrade path is intercooler, injectors, clutch, T25 or T28, and 3" exhaust, all the way up to 300whp. Lets get into it. Here is the engine bay, the car already has a Works Engineering universal intake system and a nice stainless crossover pipe, and a full 2" mandrel SS exhaust and Wozzahs excellent headers. https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1374470190 This is an SE stock turbo, the Garrett T02 being used, and a Garrett GT2560r (AKA T28, stock SP, japspec S14 and all S15 turbo). https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1374470190 Remove the intake. https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1374470190 https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1374470190 Remove the headers, These are from Warren Heath Performance (username on Auscartalk Wozzah1975), these are about a year old, and still look great, in coated mild steel these wont crack like stainless headers are so well known for, and fit perfectly every time, they also work great through the mid range and top end with stock or near stock cams. https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1374470190 Here is the first little bit of money saving, this is a stock header exhaust flange, cut from an OEM na6 header and cleaned up, given a coat of paint a year ago to protect it. This saves over $100, its not bling bling but thats not the point here. https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1374470190 Dann |
1 Attachment(s)
Don't forget to head over to DIYautotune and order your megasquirt.
This is a full standalone ECU, out of the box it will plug straight in where the stock ecu was and run a stock car, however it will need tuning to get the most from it on a stock car and should at least do a run or 2 on a dyno with a wideband to ensure the tune is safe. In this case we also ordered the AIT (Air Intake temperature) sensor, so we can delete the stock air flow meter. A good ecu is the difference between a car that is 100% bulletproof reliable, or not. Its the difference between getting stock economy, or not. Its the difference between great driveability or a lumpy flatspot filled experience (just ask the intake/exhaust/boost stock ecu MSM owners) Its the difference between having a future upgrade path and proper tyre shredding torque, or not. https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1374470395 This will allow us to get away with no intercooler for now, and still make good power safely, using bandaids alone you are stuck with a very weak, very poor very low boost tune, this is why the greddy system uses 4psi only. Once this gets on the dyno we will know, it may well be happy to run 10psi, with a very conservative tune, despite not having an intercooler. Without a good tuneable ecu you are stuck with bandaids like rising rate fuel pressure regs, running super low boost for safety, and a car that drives rubbish. Dann |
Originally Posted by nitrodann
(Post 1034984)
Gday,
So I opened my mouth on the Aus forum and said I would turbo someones NA for 2k, just so they didnt buy ITBs. So here we are. This is for everyone who is wondering, and all of the blokes who swear black and blue its impossible. This is for everyone who says you cannot do it 'right' for under 5000 etc etc :mrgreen: In this thread I will go through all the steps to build a basic, Greddy style system, done properly, with no corners cut for a big improvement in power and much more torque. It will be updated as the progress happens. This car is 100% stock except a 2" exhaust and intake, the only part that will remain is the catback, this setup would work on a stock exhaust, but we have the 2" so we will use it. It will use a Log manifold for reliability, spool, its small size and price. It will use a Garrett T02, which owes me about 80 dollars, and has a brand new never used CHRA (Centre housing, rotating assembly) so its vital moving parts are brand spankers. A used T25 or t28 or TD04 from a wrx could be used, all of these are available used for a couple of hundred dollars in good nick from ebay and the forums. It will use good quality oil feed and return, and a 2.5" downpipe that will bolt to a stock exhaust, although this car has a 2" straight through SS system already. It will not have an intercooler or blow off valve, and as a result boost will be kept sensible, and expect a little turbo flutter (also known as 'dose') on throttle lift off. Top these basic reliable parts off with a brand new MegaSquirt Plug and Play 2 and you have a very quick, completely lag free daily, thats quiet, great value, OEM reliable and can be reverted to stock in an hour. Upgrade path is intercooler, injectors, clutch, T25 or T28, and 3" exhaust, all the way up to 300whp. Lets get into it. Dann
Originally Posted by nitrodann
(Post 1034985)
Don't forget to head over to DIYautotune and order your megasquirt.
This is a full standalone ECU, out of the box it will plug straight in where the stock ecu was and run a stock car, however it will need tuning to get the most from it on a stock car and should at least do a run or 2 on a dyno with a wideband to ensure the tune is safe. In this case we also ordered the AIT (Air Intake temperature) sensor, so we can delete the stock air flow meter. A good ecu is the difference between a car that is 100% bulletproof reliable, or not. Its the difference between getting stock economy, or not. Its the difference between great driveability or a lumpy flatspot filled experience (just ask the intake/exhaust/boost stock ecu MSM owners) Its the difference between having a future upgrade path and proper tyre shredding torque, or not. [IMG]https://www.miataturbo.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=83208&dateline=1374470 395[IMG] This will allow us to get away with no intercooler for now, and still make good power safely, using bandaids alone you are stuck with a very weak, very poor very low boost tune, this is why the greddy system uses 4psi only. Once this gets on the dyno we will know, it may well be happy to run 10psi, with a very conservative tune, despite not having an intercooler. Without a good tuneable ecu you are stuck with bandaids like rising rate fuel pressure regs, running super low boost for safety, and a car that drives rubbish. Dann you state PROPERLY TURBO THIS CAR FOR 2K you make it sound like you're about to actually do that then you state that it won't be running like 50% of the parts to properly turbo a car, but rather the most bare bones of basic "starter" systems and be upgraded from there, after you've completed your "mission". Am I understanding that correctly? If not, please do explain. So the bottom line is: I applaud you for taking on this task, and attempting to do this on a budget without bandaids, but for the love of turbo miatas would you please stop making it sound like you're about to do something impossible? No one ever said you can't piece together a basic barebones system for under 5k. This kinda sounds like your claims to achieve the impossible: "FIT A BW EFR TO A MIATA USING A BOTTOM MOUNT MANIFOLD" -except neglecting to tell people you're doing it on a right hand drive car and don't have the main obstacle, the steering shaft, in the way. ****EDIT: and before you start crying and call me a hater, here is my FIRST build thread from beginning of 2009, where I did what you did but for 2500, except I didn't leave anything out: full exhaust, fmic, injectors, bov, ems, etc etc etc. a whole PROPER turbo setup: https://www.miataturbo.net/build-thr...finally-31240/ |
Please note 18.
Im in Australia, not only is our market COMPLETELY different and having only 4000 NAs in total is much must smaller with much much less competition, our dollar is worth a fair bit less, and our parts have to get shipped to the other side of the planet first. Also, cut and paste from the Aus forum, so some bits wont be applicable (Ive proof read it to swap the name of the Mazdaspeed Miata for example, but not all will be 100% relevant in your country). its been said many times you cannot possibly turbocharge an NA in a correct reliable way for anywhere near this price in Australia. Well Im just showing that it can be and exactly how its done. For the record, its basically complete however Ive lost a post and am waiting for that to come back, then Ill post another 10 updates across. Dann |
Here is my answer to that question from over there also regarding what to consider a 'proper' job.
Originally Posted by nitrodann
Many factory turbo cars do not come with BOVs, the CA18DETs didnt, RB30ETs didnt, the monster homologation FJ20 never had one and the car from which this turbo comes from, the ET pulsar, never had one.
For interest sakes for those playing at home, a full SS piping setup with a 300whp capable front mount with everything you need, is 500 dollars for an MX5, if you supply a BOV (Im only going to order it online like you so you might as well cut out the middle man) ill fit it in any configuration for no extra cost. So add that to it. But that Isnt the point, you can add 100 things to the 'do it right list' that simply aren't needed for a reliable bump in power of 40-50%. You could add that it needs a BOV, the car with this turbo from factory never had one. (ET pulsar) You could say it needs an intercooler, again, nissan didnt think so for the ET pulsar. You could say it has to have an exhaust bigger than stock, again Nissan Disagreed. And the stock na6 clutch if in good nick will cope just fine. Anyways, everyone hold their horses Ill put more photos up as the day goes on. Dann |
Originally Posted by nitrodann
(Post 1035042)
Please note 18.
Im in Australia, not only is our market COMPLETELY different and having only 4000 NAs in total is much must smaller with much much less competition, our dollar is worth a fair bit less, and our parts have to get shipped to the other side of the planet first. Also, cut and paste from the Aus forum, so some bits wont be applicable (Ive proof read it to swap the name of the Mazdaspeed Miata for example, but not all will be 100% relevant in your country). its been said many times you cannot possibly turbocharge an NA in a correct reliable way for anywhere near this price in Australia. Well Im just showing that it can be and exactly how its done. For the record, its basically complete however Ive lost a post and am waiting for that to come back, then Ill post another 10 updates across. Dann IT CAN'T BE DONE IN AUSTRALIA Got it. Okay, I'll give you that. I have no idea what its like over there, so carry on.
Originally Posted by nitrodann
(Post 1035044)
Here is my answer to that question from over there also regarding what to consider a 'proper' job.
Dann Just remember: you said yourself " PROPERLY TURBO". Then you go and justify every single statement that literally contradicts your original one. Confused? |
Charge cooling and BOV wont be needed at the small hp and very low boost this setup will run, like you say, around 5psi.
Dann |
Good, I already know this is possible if you can weld, and you're saving even more money than be because I was factoring buying the flanges.
Originally Posted by 18psi
(Post 1035028)
This kinda sounds like your claims to achieve the impossible: "FIT A BW EFR TO A MIATA USING A BOTTOM MOUNT MANIFOLD"
|
thats still kindof alot of heat... and when that TB closes, thats 5psi backpressure against the turbo, which may seem miniscule, but still long term damaging
i mean, i see what you are getting at, but i dont see this being an efficient reliable LONG TERM thing, might run into problems a little down the road. what i DO see, is this being a possibility WITH all the necessary parts (ie:bov, intercooler, piping) if you can source the parts cheap, and do a diypnp for $400 or so $400 diypnp $100 for injectors (whatever size you decide necessary) $100 for decent condition TD04 (or equivalent, assuming one can be sourced) $100 for decent BOV $200 for good intercooler AND piping (only thing besides the turbo itself that i would source from EBAY) with some welding skills/experience $200 or so in materials (flanges, piping (maybe cheaper, depending on sourcing and connections)) +time to piece together and weld. We are at $1100 now, with some decent condition sourced parts. $1400 if you decide to buy an already built MS. also, ASSUMING you had Fabrication skills and necessary equipment, a downpipe can be made within $200 easily leaving $400 to play with, that can be used towards a Better turbo option, or whatever you choose. this is ALL assuming you can source those particular parts within those price ranges (usually can be done) and again, that you have the time, fabrication skills, and equipment to do it all yourself. May be used stuff, and by all means NOT necessarily ARTECH quality or whatever... but all of this seems like a better option than running a NON cooled charge, with no relief of backpressure from the turbo. by far NOT the best setup possible, but still reliable with NO bandaids, and just as, if not MORE efficient, than the 2k setup without intercooling or bov As i said, this is all being extremely budget concious, and having access to the fab required to pull it off. I by no means claim to know everything about turbos or miatas, but i can definitely see all of this as an option. And i realize that this may not ALL be attainable QUICKLY, but just since February, ive seen these parts for THESE prices here in the FS section of just Miataturbo. so, may take time, but if you are patient, you can source it all, and do it just as i listed. AGAIN... its alot of assuming..... but definitely possible |
Call Garrett, 5psi is fine with no BOV on their smaller turbos. It might increase wear on the thrust bearing a little so the turbo might only last for 80k miles before it needs to be rebuilt rather than 100k. The forces wont be high enough to damage the fins.
|
I think his main thing is baing in AU and apparently they can't source parts as cheap as we can here in the USA.
Apparently. But even with that obstacle, you just can't say you're PROPERLY turbocharging anything and then brush off like half the parts as "unneeded". That's just ignorant. And no clutch? really? At this rate you can buy a used greddy kit at like 800-900, add a mspnp and cross over tube and be done with like $1600 spent.
Originally Posted by Leafy
(Post 1035087)
Call Garrett, 5psi is fine with no BOV on their smaller turbos. It might increase wear on the thrust bearing a little so the turbo might only last for 80k miles before it needs to be rebuilt rather than 100k. The forces wont be high enough to damage the fins.
so it will be reliable. it won't be reliable but it will be reliable. it might put wear and tear on the turbo and possibly the throttle body leading to premature failure, but it will be reliable. just not reliable. HERP DERP |
You could get a brand new or slightly used Bosch BOV from an Audi,Snaab, Volvo or VW or something for like 30 bux or less. It works good till like 14psi or so.
|
Guys I'm gonna swap in a v8.
THEY SAID IT COULDN'T BE DONE!! So here's a v6 swap with 1 engine mount and 4 of its cylinders work. That's right. I did it. Worship me. |
The setup has a BOV fitting welded to the crossover, Add 20 bucks for a Bosch bov and quit whining 18, when I get another 50 photos up with instructions on the fitment, checking the turbo, porting the wastegate, and how to fabricate the parts, you will understand the point is instructions and showing what can be done on a budget, first time, no chasing used parts and guessing etc, NOT to argue with you about every minute detail regarding what I can buy if I live in the states from the forum if I wait a year, we all know what can be found in the classifieds.
Let the thread just continue man. Dann |
Alright, carry on.
I'm just bothered by your statement of: "they said it couldn't be done", when you're clearly "not doing it". |
Originally Posted by supercooper
(Post 1035084)
thats still kindof alot of heat... and when that TB closes, thats 5psi backpressure against the turbo, which may seem miniscule, but still long term damaging
i mean, i see what you are getting at, but i dont see this being an efficient reliable LONG TERM thing, might run into problems a little down the road. what i DO see, is this being a possibility WITH all the necessary parts (ie:bov, intercooler, piping) if you can source the parts cheap, and do a diypnp for $400 or so $400 diypnp $100 for injectors (whatever size you decide necessary) $100 for decent condition TD04 (or equivalent, assuming one can be sourced) $100 for decent BOV $200 for good intercooler AND piping (only thing besides the turbo itself that i would source from EBAY) with some welding skills/experience $200 or so in materials (flanges, piping (maybe cheaper, depending on sourcing and connections)) +time to piece together and weld. We are at $1100 now, with some decent condition sourced parts. $1400 if you decide to buy an already built MS. also, ASSUMING you had Fabrication skills and necessary equipment, a downpipe can be made within $200 easily leaving $400 to play with, that can be used towards a Better turbo option, or whatever you choose. this is ALL assuming you can source those particular parts within those price ranges (usually can be done) and again, that you have the time, fabrication skills, and equipment to do it all yourself. May be used stuff, and by all means NOT necessarily ARTECH quality or whatever... but all of this seems like a better option than running a NON cooled charge, with no relief of backpressure from the turbo. by far NOT the best setup possible, but still reliable with NO bandaids, and just as, if not MORE efficient, than the 2k setup without intercooling or bov As i said, this is all being extremely budget concious, and having access to the fab required to pull it off. I by no means claim to know everything about turbos or miatas, but i can definitely see all of this as an option. And i realize that this may not ALL be attainable QUICKLY, but just since February, ive seen these parts for THESE prices here in the FS section of just Miataturbo. so, may take time, but if you are patient, you can source it all, and do it just as i listed. AGAIN... its alot of assuming..... but definitely possible |
Originally Posted by cowboys647
(Post 1035101)
Don't forget the wideband!
OK..... so, add $200 for a good wideband, and get a BETTER turbo for about $300 brand new, and BOOM!!! a $2k setup, give or take a few bucks here and there for shipping. lol |
This is totally doable... My setup is as follows:
Used Greddy Kit with TurboTony Downpipe $500 3" custom Catback with Magnaflow muffler (DP6061 style) $200 DIYPnP $350 RX8 injectors $60 TurboXS RFL Bov $25 ABD Front mount for MK4 VW 1.8t $100 IC Piping $150 FlyinMiata Stage 1 clutch $350 PLX Wideband $100 I'm at $1835 for my setup... Add $100 for miscellaneous vacuum lines, fittings, etc and I'm under $2k. |
Originally Posted by nitrodann
(Post 1034984)
Remove the headers, These are from Warren Heath Performance (username on Auscartalk Wozzah1975),
Enough with the mini rant, thank you for taking the time to post this. However, I would make this is build thread rather than a "how to" since many people will disagree with your choices and there is a million ways to build a turbo system with none being the absolute correct way. My suggestion for a $2k range build, Begi-s kit, with a used sr20 t25 and megasquirt with wideband. With the price Begi takes off for the turbo and FPR it should put you right around that price for a non-intercooled reliable 6psi system. or the more fun method of trolling the FS section for good deals for a year to piece together a kit. Mine will be about $1200 with BEGI mani/DP, MS, injectors, intercooler and gt2560 when done (i hope...) :dealwithit: |
Originally Posted by nperkins
(Post 1035114)
This is totally doable... My setup is as follows:
Used Greddy Kit with TurboTony Downpipe $500 3" custom Catback with Magnaflow muffler (DP6061 style) $200 DIYPnP $350 RX8 injectors $60 TurboXS RFL Bov $25 ABD Front mount for MK4 VW 1.8t $100 IC Piping $150 FlyinMiata Stage 1 clutch $350 PLX Wideband $100 I'm at $1835 for my setup... Add $100 for miscellaneous vacuum lines, fittings, etc and I'm under $2k. |
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