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I'm thinking of fabbing a V-mount advice needed

 
Old 08-31-2009, 03:06 PM
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Default I'm thinking of fabbing a V-mount advice needed

which IC set up would have less pressure drop out of the two pictured below?
From what I read regarding Intercoolers it seems to me that the second set up should be better (since the air has to travel smaller path through the IC small tubes) but the overall piping will be longer ....



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Old 08-31-2009, 03:07 PM
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the first one
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Old 08-31-2009, 03:14 PM
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Originally Posted by leatherface24 View Post
the first one
Thanks Leatherface, do you mind to elaborate?
Pros and cons from each?
From various articles I see that:

1) The higher the number of tubes, the lower the flow restriction will be.
2) The longer the tubes, the lower the charge temperature will be.

So N2 has way more (in number) shorter tubes - shouldn't that give an advantage?
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Old 08-31-2009, 03:16 PM
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flow doesn't like to change directions though, and the second IC has all sorts of crazy turns into non-smooth flow sections.
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Old 08-31-2009, 03:29 PM
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Longer tubes mean cooler charge air, which is what you want from an intercooler, isn't it?. They also mean more restriction which is why you want enough tubes to meet your power goals. That means a taller or thicker core if you need it due to restrictive pressure drop.
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Old 08-31-2009, 03:50 PM
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Corky Bell has done a fair bit of thinking on this topic.

For many years, all of the Bell kits used an intercooler which was built in the short-n-wide configuration. After a lengthy period of debate, research, and testing, they eventually switched over to the long-n-narrow configuration, citing better efficiency, even considering the slightly increased pressure loss. All of Bell's intercoolers are now of this design, and when FM designed their own system after parting ways with Bell, they too adopted this style.
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Old 08-31-2009, 04:11 PM
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Is pressure drop across an IC even significant? Curious...
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Old 08-31-2009, 04:11 PM
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Originally Posted by y8s View Post
flow doesn't like to change directions though, and the second IC has all sorts of crazy turns into non-smooth flow sections.
Well The first sytem has also a tight turn when the air is exiting from the turbo going up toward the hood and has to turn more than 90 but you can not see this from the top.

If I was doing the second set up I would turn the turbo clockwise having the exit towards the fender well and making a nice smooth (but long) arc.

I think the tubing is way longer but I believe that I can make the turns smooth.

Originally Posted by sixshooter View Post
Longer tubes mean cooler charge air, which is what you want from an intercooler, isn't it?. They also mean more restriction which is why you want enough tubes to meet your power goals. That means a taller or thicker core if you need it due to restrictive pressure drop.
Well it's complicated I think I want both but currently the priorities are:
1) minimize any signs of lag (first)
2) maximize efficiency (second)

Originally Posted by Joe Perez View Post
Corky Bell has done a fair bit of thinking on this topic.

For many years, all of the Bell kits used an intercooler which was built in the short-n-wide configuration. After a lengthy period of debate, research, and testing, they eventually switched over to the long-n-narrow configuration, citing better efficiency, even considering the slightly increased pressure loss. All of Bell's intercoolers are now of this design, and when FM designed their own system after parting ways with Bell, they too adopted this style.
To me that last comment is very important because truth is that regardless of the calculations and theory - real time experience is what it matters...

Thanks you guys it seems that I'll go with N1 set up - which will also be way easier for me to fabricate...

Last edited by Max_Power; 08-31-2009 at 04:28 PM.
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Old 08-31-2009, 04:16 PM
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Another question...
In the past the car (with the same IC as the one in the first picture) was getting 88-97 CELSIUS (not F) at the cold side of the intercooler while driving in the hot (80-100F) streets of LA.

This was with IC-A/C-Radiator running LINK ECU with a GT2560 at 15+psi.

Is that a sign that the IC is too small?
I guess without the A/C the flow should be better and in the V-mouth set up even better (with proper ducting) but aren't these kind of temperatures pretty high?
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Old 08-31-2009, 05:03 PM
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I think it's a sign that the I/C wasn't ducted very well.
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Old 08-31-2009, 05:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Joe Perez View Post
I think it's a sign that the I/C wasn't ducted very well.
I'm not sure if there was flow though all the heat exchangers but it was very properly ducted and there was a vented hood to maximize airflow...
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Old 08-31-2009, 05:21 PM
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Well, it's hard to see much from the one picture, but it looks like the radiator is in more or less the stock position, partially blocking the I/C. If you've got air going through the radiator and then up through the I/C on the way out the hood (in addition to radiant heat transfer from the top tank into the I/C) then that's what Corky refers to as an interheater.

Given the relatively sane level of boost you were making, the intercooler in the picture does not appear undersized. If it were in a front-mount configuration, I'd expect no more than 30-40F above ambient coming out of it, and that'd be if you were pushing it hard for a sustained run. In the horizontal config, I honestly don't have any first-hand experience to share, other than to say you shouldn't be seeing those temps at that level of boost, assuming good airflow.
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Old 08-31-2009, 05:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Joe Perez View Post
Well, it's hard to see much from the one picture, but it looks like the radiator is in more or less the stock position, partially blocking the I/C. If you've got air going through the radiator and then up through the I/C on the way out the hood (in addition to radiant heat transfer from the top tank into the I/C) then that's what Corky refers to as an interheater.

Given the relatively sane level of boost you were making, the intercooler in the picture does not appear undersized. If it were in a front-mount configuration, I'd expect no more than 30-40F above ambient coming out of it, and that'd be if you were pushing it hard for a sustained run. In the horizontal config, I honestly don't have any first-hand experience to share, other than to say you shouldn't be seeing those temps at that level of boost, assuming good airflow.
My bad, maybe I didn't clarify it enough.
The car currently has a FMIC... and I'm thinking of fabricating a V-mount.
While the IC was out I was playing with it and I placed it in the opening to see if it fits (that's why the rad is not tilted).
What I was saying is that in my FMIC set up (when the A/C was still there) I used to see temperatures in the range of 88-97 C.

Since I might be fabing a V-mount soon I was wondering if this was an indication that I should also make the IC a bit larger. Otherwise I can use the IC that I have and just change the piping...

Here is the picture of my previous/current set up...

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Old 11-16-2009, 08:13 PM
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Btw here is the end result:
Name:  1.jpg
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Size:  66.1 KB

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A brand new stock Mazda rad was used:
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Preliminary test showed no overheating problems - even w/o ducting.
Of course this is not the end product - I'll need to work on the ducting soon...
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