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Old 04-24-2010, 09:34 PM   #1
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Default Looking to replace a 14B with a similar t3 turbo

I'm switching from a junkyard DSM 14b turbo and shitty ebay manifold to a T3 and (less shitty?) ebay cast manifold. I was pretty happy with my last setup until the turbo flange ripped off the manifold and the 14b seals started to go.

Now I'm looking for another similar T3 junkyard turbo to replace the 14b. I found 2 Garrett TA0301 today on old diesel Mercedes. They were both sloppy but nothing was chewed up from what I could tell. I think the specs are 50 trim with a .48 A/R turbine and .42 compressor. How does this turbo compare to the 14B? Is anyone else running one of these?
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Old 04-24-2010, 09:39 PM   #2
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ebay Super 60 T3
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Old 04-24-2010, 10:11 PM   #3
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I was looking at eBay turbos but ones of those would really hurt my budget. I'm trying to do this as cheap as possible since its a Grassroots Challenge car. To use an eBay turbo I'd also have to find a wastegate and a few other parts to make it work. I do have the budget left but a junkyard turbo would cost me about $35-50 and the rebuild kit is another $40.
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Old 04-25-2010, 12:50 AM   #4
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Saabs (or Volvos?) have a T3 turbine bolt pattern but a round inlet area that will need to be milled down. Looks like this one http://www.diymiata.com/p_sourcing.htm
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Old 04-25-2010, 01:17 AM   #5
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14b's are most similar to 60 trim T3's. These are relatively rare and fetch a bit of a premium. You can pick these out by them traditionally having a 2 bolt flange on the compressor inlet. They came off Ford SVO Thunderbirds and Mustangs. 45 trim T3's on the other hand are incredibly common and a good bit cheaper. They came off Volvos, Saabs, Fords, and Chryslers. 50 trim T3s are very rare. I'm not even sure what vehicles they came off, but the Mercedes you are suggesting might be right.
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Old 04-25-2010, 12:08 PM   #6
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saab te05 12b i know for a fact has a t3 flange on it. It's a little smaller than the t3 they used the years before though. i actually have one that's almost new in your interested.
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Old 04-25-2010, 12:14 PM   #7
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50 trim is a 230rwhp turbo.

super 60 is a 300rwhp turbo
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Old 04-25-2010, 03:48 PM   #8
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50 trim is a 230rwhp turbo.

super 60 is a 300rwhp turbo
Those are conservative.
45 trim = 22-25 lb/min
50 trim = 25-27 lb/min
60 trim = 30-32 lb/min
Super 60 = 32-35lb/min

I use the cheap rule of 10lb/min = 100whp and it's mostly right.

I'd also not even think about a Super 60. They are ultra rare and typically not even Super 60's. People just use the term Super 60 because it sounds better. Most of the time you are getting some strange concoction of a turbo. This goes for brand new units as well. My personal experience is that even the guys selling new turbos typically do not know the specs very well.
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Old 04-25-2010, 04:21 PM   #9
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You like like I don't have a Super 60...two actually. You also act like I'm not running a 50 trim right now...

You also act like the formula: lb/min / AFR / (BFSC/60) is conservative, even though every time I compare it to my multitude of dyno results it's within a close margin...

27 / 11.5 / .00916 = 256BHP - 25HP for drivetrain loss = 230rwhp
35 / 11.5 / .00916 = 332BHP - 25HP for drivetrain loss = 307rwhp

It's also weird my 50 trim runs out of steam at around 220rwhp where my super 60 would make over 240rwhp without signs of choking out (all things being equal of course)...
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Old 04-25-2010, 04:33 PM   #10
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I would love to see a super 60 make 350hp...
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Old 04-25-2010, 04:38 PM   #11
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The most I've seen was Markp's 1.8L...I think it still only made 300rwhp. this had a .60 A/R turbine housing IIRC. By the way the torque was dropping off, it really didn't have much left in it.
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Old 04-25-2010, 04:38 PM   #12
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Quote:
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You like like I don't have a Super 60...two actually. You also act like I'm not running a 50 trim right now...

You also act like the formula: lb/min / AFR / (BFSC/60) is conservative, even though every time I compare it to my multitude of dyno results it's within a close margin...

27 / 11.5 / .00916 = 256BHP - 25HP for drivetrain loss = 230rwhp
35 / 11.5 / .00916 = 332BHP - 25HP for drivetrain loss = 307rwhp

It's also weird my 50 trim runs out of steam at around 220rwhp where my super 60 would make over 240rwhp without signs of choking out (all things being equal of course)...
You realize a true Super 60 has a stage II turbine wheel, right? It was also made by Turbonetics, not Garret? Again, Super 60's are marketing ploys. What you have is something someone called a Super 60.

You're over complicating things. I can show you dyno's where GT35r's make 650whp. The turbo only flows 60lb/min. I can show the same with several other turbos in other examples. By your calculations, this would be borderline impossible. 10lb/min=100whp is good enough and I find it to be more accurate on average.
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Old 04-29-2010, 01:49 PM   #13
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I think I’m going to take the budget hit and get a standard eBay 60 trim. Looking at the compressor maps the 60 looks like a good fit since I’d probably max out a 50. I’m still tempted by the spool of the 50 but I can always get a small junkyard T3 for cheap and just run that during the autocross.

Now the one I’m looking at comes with an actuator and internal v band wastegate. I’d actually have to buy more parts to use the v band flange. To make the turbo more budget friendly I think I’m going to replace those parts with junkyard ones and then sell the new ones separately to bring down the cost of the turbo. The wastegate off a SAAB T3 looks like it might fit. I’m also going to look for coupons or see if Bing still offers that 8% savings on buy it now items.
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Old 04-29-2010, 02:08 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigwig View Post
You realize a true Super 60 has a stage II turbine wheel, right? It was also made by Turbonetics, not Garret? Again, Super 60's are marketing ploys. What you have is something someone called a Super 60.
That's what I hear.. They came on the "Super 60 Package" by Mopar Performance on the Dodge Daytona, and only come with a .63 A/R Chrysler exhaust housing, which mine came from, and the wheel sizes have been verified on calipers...I do in fact have a super 60 compressor wheel.

They have a .07" larger inducer than the standard 60 trim...and that gives you an extra 5 lb/min headroom...I wouldn't call that a ploy per say, if that's the wheel you're actually getting. But there really isn't much difference between 60 trim and s60 trim wheels otherwise.

I do agree, however, they 9.9:10 they are called super 60 and aren't really.


FWIW, a true T3 wheel will have a 60mm exducer... I've seen a lot of auctions that say 60 trim and it's a 7xmm T4 wheel.
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Old 04-29-2010, 02:19 PM   #15
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I'm running a 50 trim T3, .48 turbine. Not too rare, mine is a junkyard Saab unit. Great spool for my crap manifold....
--Alex
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Old 04-29-2010, 06:36 PM   #16
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I'm running a 50 trim T3, .48 turbine. Not too rare, mine is a junkyard Saab unit. Great spool for my crap manifold....
--Alex
I'm almost positive Saabs are 45 trim. The 50 trim is the odd ball size of the bunch. A lot of people get that backwards. In the end, the difference is relatively insignificant.

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That's what I hear.. They came on the "Super 60 Package" by Mopar Performance on the Dodge Daytona, and only come with a .63 A/R Chrysler exhaust housing, which mine came from, and the wheel sizes have been verified on calipers...I do in fact have a super 60 compressor wheel.

They have a .07" larger inducer than the standard 60 trim...and that gives you an extra 5 lb/min headroom...I wouldn't call that a ploy per say, if that's the wheel you're actually getting. But there really isn't much difference between 60 trim and s60 trim wheels otherwise.

I do agree, however, they 9.9:10 they are called super 60 and aren't really.


FWIW, a true T3 wheel will have a 60mm exducer... I've seen a lot of auctions that say 60 trim and it's a 7xmm T4 wheel.
What makes the Super 60 make sense is the larger turbine wheel. At 280-300whp, the Stage I turbine wheel is maxed. You need to run a 4" exhaust and a long runner manifold to get 350whp out of a Super 60 compressor wheel with stage I turbine wheel. You add the Stage II turbine wheel or that small T4 wheel(can't remember the model number) then you can get the 350whp. In the end, Super60 compressor wheel is worth an extra $25-50. Other than that, I wouldn't go hunting for one vs a 60 trim T3.
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Old 04-29-2010, 06:39 PM   #17
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By my caliper the Saab is a 50, the Volvo is a 45.
--Alex
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Old 04-29-2010, 06:48 PM   #18
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agrees.
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Old 04-30-2010, 04:16 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Braineack View Post
FWIW, a true T3 wheel will have a 60mm exducer... I've seen a lot of auctions that say 60 trim and it's a 7xmm T4 wheel.
That’s the problem I'm noticing right now. All the cheap super 60 eBay turbos are listing a 54.79mm in. | 71.32mm ex wheel. I can't find enough specs on the regular cheap 60's so I sent out a few emails trying to get more info.

Last edited by Pseudosport; 04-30-2010 at 06:37 PM.
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Old 05-12-2010, 06:01 PM   #20
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Unless I’m mistaken all the 60 trim T3’s I’m seeing on eBay are actually T3/T4’s based on the wheel sizes. For the price I’m almost considering one since some of the hybrids are really cheap. My 14b was fully spooled at 14 psi around 3800 RPMs with a full 2.5 exhaust with a non louvered glasspack and muffler. If a t3/t4 (depending trim and AR's) is only a few hundred RPMs more with just a 3” downpipe then that I might be able to live with it. One other thing I was curious about was if it was possible to swap out the T4 compressor with a junkyard T3 compressor housing and wheel off a 50 trim. That way I could have the top end for the drags and run the smaller wheel for the autocross. Has anyone swapped out the Chinese parts for Garrett ones?

Last edited by Pseudosport; 05-13-2010 at 05:45 PM.
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