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Old 12-18-2013, 10:11 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Track View Post
well, the evidence there. I think people can pull their own conclusions. This is not like a coolant reroute for example, where Mazda had an original method, then tried a new configuration, then changed it multiple times in an effort to deal with a symptom.

It seems consistently Mazda has used the block port, not the head. Not saying that your engine will go boom if you diverge, but its probably the more "reliably safe" location to get oil for a turbo. It is also very possible the head port has enough tolerance to accommodate a turbo... *shrug* gotta try it out
And yet in post#18 you can clearly see that Mazda of Australlia used the head port on the limited edition turbo 01
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Old 12-18-2013, 10:57 AM   #22
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And yet in post#18 you can clearly see that Mazda of Australlia used the head port on the limited edition turbo 01
You know...I wrote a long message about engineering, over engineering, and product life, etc. but I don't think it matters. Like I said before, pull your own conclusions. No one said your engine will blow up for using the head port, just that its probably maybe possibly better to get it from the block.

Also, mazda Australia is not the same company that built the miata and mazdaspeed miata.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Track View Post
well, the evidence there. I think people can pull their own conclusions. This is not like a coolant reroute for example, where Mazda had an original method, then tried a new configuration, then changed it multiple times in an effort to deal with a symptom.

It seems consistently Mazda has used the block port, not the head. Not saying that your engine will go boom if you diverge, but its probably the more "reliably safe" location to get oil for a turbo. It is also very possible the head port has enough tolerance to accommodate a turbo... *shrug* gotta try it out
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Old 12-18-2013, 11:01 AM   #23
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lol

I know.

I'm trying to persuade myself but am just as torn as I was when I first considered it. The reason I keep bringing it up though is because I'm actually faced with this decision right now. I need to buy and install an oil feed line on my current setup, and have gone back and forth like 1000000x times on which route I want to take.

The only reason I'm considering the head port routing is because of how clean and simple it is. You can do a 90* off the port going up, then clamp the line to the valve cover bolts, then straight down into the turbo. Total 20", totally secured, really clean, really simple, vs running a huge 46" line all the way around, wrapping it in stuff so it doesn't rub or cut anything, etc etc etc.

I know, I'm just being a drama queen.
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Old 12-18-2013, 11:04 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 18psi View Post
lol

I know.

I'm trying to persuade myself but am just as torn as I was when I first considered it. The reason I keep bringing it up though is because I'm actually faced with this decision right now. I need to buy and install an oil feed line on my current setup, and have gone back and forth like 1000000x times on which route I want to take.
VVT line yo. But be more of a man than me and cut and flare the hardline going across the the VC and put in a T.
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Old 12-18-2013, 11:09 AM   #25
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I know, I'm just being a drama queen.
Yer definitely being some kinda' queen.

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Old 12-18-2013, 12:07 PM   #26
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From last week

Same location as that used by the designers of the fastest factory miata ever, which uses a tubular style cast manifold with a GT2560r and a 2.5" exhaust.

What more needs to be shown or said?

Dann
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Old 12-18-2013, 12:15 PM   #27
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/\ That's EXACTLY what I was thinking of Dann.
That looks great.
Thanks for posting that. Props
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Old 12-18-2013, 12:41 PM   #28
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It is a VERY neat setup, I probably prefer the hardline, which is also a LOT cheaper, but there is no doubt the silver on black braid is really super nice done like this.

Dann
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Old 12-18-2013, 02:28 PM   #29
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Hold on here, you are calling a Aftermarket developed car under the oversite of Mazda Australia's motorsport division a factory car? I think you need to rethink the word "factory". This was (probably) not developed under the oversite of Mazda Engineers, and definitely not the Mazda Engineers who developed the miata, or the BP engines originally.

Stop trying to act like you have hard evidence in this [highly speculative] argument/discussion.
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Old 12-18-2013, 03:15 PM   #30
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This Aussie thing is a bit like a Brabus Mercedes or a Yenko Camaro. An aftermarket modification carried out with some form of blessing from the local authority, but both designed and manufactured outside of the auspices of the original design engineers and the OEM factory.

As such, they exist in a sort of murky middle ground. From a purely legal point of view (eg: in a Tort case), such modifications are authorized by the manufacturer's agent (the dealership), and thus occupy the same status as OEM. From a technical point of view, these modifications are no different from a kit designed by any other third-party (eg: Bell, BBR, Greddy, Flyin' Miata, Jackson, Knack Toys, etc.)

Is it a "factory turbo" Miata? Well, to the best of my knowledge, the only Miata factory is located in Hiroshima, Japan, and that's not where these turbocharger systems were designed or installed.
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Old 12-18-2013, 04:07 PM   #31
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Here is my take, based on my research, and in part from comments by in this FAQ:

Forced Performance Turbochargers

Basically it comes down to how much oil an individual turbo needs. Since I am installing a TD04L-13T, I believe that the risk is minimal, and I'm willing to take it. I will hedge this bet by moving to 0W-40 synthetic oil, rather than 10W30.

However, there is no doubt in my mind that the block feed is more safe and sure from the motor's perspective. It is fed directly from a regulated supply, that should automatically account for the increased flow, whether small or large (within the capacity of the pump).

As far as comparisons to Factory, what are we doing that is even close to what factory (Porsch not included) is willing to do.

18PSI, you just have to make a call and go with it.

If you go with the head port, you could temporarily put a Tee at the port and monitor the pressure in the head and going to the turbo. Maybe get Brain to hook you up an input on the MS3 and use an analog sending unit with an alarm. Then, after a few months, jerk out the Tee and sensor and be happy, or move the oil feed to the block and be happy, depending on how it goes. Like Joe said, it's not likely going to be a quick, catastrophic mistake.

I mean, if you go with a block feed, are you not going to have to experiment and risk issues while you determine the correct restrictor orifice? Too small, burnt turbo, too large, blowing oil, etc. Just off the top of my head thoughts.
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Old 12-18-2013, 04:15 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by DNMakinson View Post
I mean, if you go with a block feed, are you not going to have to experiment and risk issues while you determine the correct restrictor orifice? Too small, burnt turbo, too large, blowing oil, etc.
Two answers:

1: No, enough thousands of people have already done this that the variables are well-understood, and the requisite parts are cheaply available off-the-shelf from multiple vendors.

2: Any hypothetical trial / risk which would be associated with the above (if no one had ever done it before) would still exist in a head-feed setup, and would merely be added to the hypothetical risks and uncertainties associated with depriving the head of oil.
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Old 12-18-2013, 05:07 PM   #33
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Joe, Fair enough, and well stated.
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Old 12-18-2013, 06:30 PM   #34
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turbo oil restrictors are generally suggested by the manufacturer.

Last time we are going to bring up this Aussie turbo miata...

ITs built directly on a 2002 LS miata. it uses a straight up VVT motor which didn't even have a port on the block (like the MSM & 94). So unless the aftermarket guys are planning to hack **** up DIY style like us, its not possible for them to use a block port anyway.

I am willing to bet that they looked at it as:
"hey this car is going to be warrantied much less than a regular miata, so **** it"

Or maybe they did their due diligence and called up Mazda Japan and said:
"Hey, can we pull oil from a head port on miata?" to which Mazda Japan said "Sure, especially since its a VVT BP motor with a bigger oil pump".
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Old 12-18-2013, 06:37 PM   #35
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You're probably right, except for this part:

Quote:
So unless the aftermarket guys are planning to hack **** up DIY style like us, its not possible for them to use a block port anyway
It woulda been just as easy for them to tee off the oil pressure sender just like we do.

Again, I'm not defending either way because like the rest of us, I have no idea on the logistics of this issue.
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Old 12-18-2013, 06:42 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 18psi View Post
You're probably right, except for this part:

It woulda been just as easy for them to tee off the oil pressure sender just like we do.

Again, I'm not defending either way because like the rest of us, I have no idea on the logistics of this issue.
I understand, but that seems less "clean" to having a dedicated port.
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Old 12-20-2013, 04:34 PM   #37
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It is a VERY neat setup, I probably prefer the hardline, which is also a LOT cheaper, but there is no doubt the silver on black braid is really super nice done like this.

Dann
Is that a 20" line?
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Old 12-20-2013, 07:30 PM   #38
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I can find out. Isn't your turbo going to be in a different spot anyway?

Dann
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Old 12-20-2013, 09:48 PM   #39
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That looks like a tubular begi/fm replacement. In which case it should be in exact same location. I'm switching to another setup. Again lol
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Old 12-21-2013, 01:51 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Perez View Post
This Aussie thing is a bit like a Brabus Mercedes or a Yenko Camaro. An aftermarket modification carried out with some form of blessing from the local authority, but both designed and manufactured outside of the auspices of the original design engineers and the OEM factory.
Yenko is a poor comparison. In 67/68, he was taking a completely factory iron 427 (the L72 motor) and dropping it into L78-equipped Camaros. It's akin to Mazda Australia dropping a 1.8 into 1.6 chassis using all factory electronics - not really much design work going on. In '69, Chevy themselves actually manufactured the cars on the production line as COPO 9560 (aluminum 427) and 9561 (L72 iron 427), so there's literally no design/manufacturing beyond the original design/OEM factory.

[/nerd]

In this case, it's adding a turbo to a motor which never came from the factory with one (until the MSM, which got a much smaller turbo and, more to the point, used a different feed location which Mazda had to spend money to recreate on the later NB2 blocks). Apples and oranges.

Last edited by Savington; 12-21-2013 at 02:39 AM.
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