Picking a way to control fuel on a 99... im CLUELESS. - Page 2 - Miata Turbo Forum - Boost cars, acquire cats.

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Old 12-16-2007, 01:06 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by DropTopDrifter View Post
OK, well it seems that both the link and MSparallel can work.

Mark-As for the comment about "if you want to buy a new motor, get a link". Please by all means feel free to back this statement up with some kinda facts.... not something based on a specific experience or personal preference. I don't want to pass up something that could be useful / get something that does not work because i didn't know the pros and cons to it.

Something tells me that the MS would be good because their hq is right down the road lol. Either one i go with, DIY is doing the dyno tuning.
I don't have a tally on how many motors have blown up with the Link piggyback, Call FM and they'll tell you everything is fine.

If you want to discount my personal experience (because I didn't blow my motor with the link, but witnessed others) that's fine. The problem with the Link piggyback is that it suffers from the ability to accurately control timing. No I don't have datalogs of this, well, because it doesn't datalog.

I do know what causes detonation though and the rods that I saw bent to hell and back were not the result of any differences in the forging or hardness of the rods (FM sent out rods for testing to confirm this after a number of motors blew up at 12 PSI.) and reduced the maximum recommended boost to 9 PSI on NB's. Why because of spark scatter... Spark scatter wasn't sufficient enough to blow the motors at 9 PSI but it was at 12 PSI. I ran 18 PSI without a problem, but I was running 100 octane racing gas in my car, where the spark scatter didn't matter because I had sufficient octane.

You know what, given the fact that all I have is personal experience and a large number of reported blown motors from the forums. All anecdotal evidence of the timing problem... I think you should go for it!

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I've come across deals on both systems... an my lack of knowlege is keeping me from making a solid decision.
That's funny. This is an area where I don't lack knowledge. Then again, what do I know... It's not like I have an engineering degree, just a 300 RWHP Miata that runs on pump gas.

Mark
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Old 12-16-2007, 01:13 PM   #22
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Well that's interesting.
The MSparallel will allow you to maintain OBDII.
Truthfully if you can handle the AEM FIC interface it appears to be a great option. You will be able to use the stock Crank and Cam sensors and control large injectors while maintaining sequential injection. The only downside to going with the FIC is the lack of knock, launch, EBC, and a few things like that.
The FIC can be had for around 300-350 depending on who you talk to. I've been seeing some people getting them Uber cheap, but i think they have dealer connections.

Well, I didn't pay much more than that for my MS to run in parallel in my 96 with knock, launch control, EBC, etc. I'm not totally convinced that the AEM FIC can compete with the MS. I did seriously look into it when I was deciding on my EMS setup and discarded it because there was not enough real life feedback to be found (lol, I was the second guy to register as a FIC forum member!).

What finally convinced me to go with Chad's MS was the fact that he was running his in parallel without issues. Plus, I've been hassling him via pm and email at every corner of my project
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Old 12-16-2007, 01:20 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Markp View Post
I don't have a tally on how many motors have blown up with the Link piggyback, Call FM and they'll tell you everything is fine.

If you want to discount my personal experience (because I didn't blow my motor with the link, but witnessed others) that's fine. The problem with the Link piggyback is that it suffers from the ability to accurately control timing. No I don't have datalogs of this, well, because it doesn't datalog.

I do know what causes detonation though and the rods that I saw bent to hell and back were not the result of any differences in the forging or hardness of the rods (FM sent out rods for testing to confirm this after a number of motors blew up at 12 PSI.) and reduced the maximum recommended boost to 9 PSI on NB's. Why because of spark scatter... Spark scatter wasn't sufficient enough to blow the motors at 9 PSI but it was at 12 PSI. I ran 18 PSI without a problem, but I was running 100 octane racing gas in my car, where the spark scatter didn't matter because I had sufficient octane.

You know what, given the fact that all I have is personal experience and a large number of reported blown motors from the forums. All anecdotal evidence of the timing problem... I think you should go for it!



That's funny. This is an area where I don't lack knowledge. Then again, what do I know... It's not like I have an engineering degree, just a 300 RWHP Miata that runs on pump gas.

Mark
Woah there Killer. I didn't mean to in anyway, discredit what you factually do know about them. I just didn't want the "oh my friend didn't like it so it's crap" or "it didn't do what i wanted it to do" kinda response. But rather a "i've seen x,y and z happen directly because of theis system" was what i was looking for. Just coming out and saying that it blows motors leaves much to the imagination on why someone would say something like i did in return.
And what i meant by "a specific experience" was just that, A specific experience that left a bad impression.... not multiple cases of the Link failing to do its job.

I was hoping for actual accounts of what makes it bad. That's all, sorry for the mis-use of words

So you're saying that the Link is only good for 9psi or so? Yeesh.

BTW Mark, what are you using for management? Is your block stock? I ask because i wouldn't mind seeing those numbers from mine down the road.
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Old 12-16-2007, 02:00 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by DropTopDrifter View Post
Also, can the Xede control any injectors? (as in the RX-7 injectors)
Xede is pnp/can pass OBD2 etc however it doesn't have granular pulswidth control so idle is a bit rough but liveable (I run 550s and idle pretty well). They (Bell) can do MAP sensor but havn't developed this to a full option for cuts yet (I've been nagging). Overall it works pretty well. All that being said I'm still thinking about going MS for more control (idle, cold start etc would be nice to have). Injectors - I don't recall the specifics but I think it does only one or the other of high or low impediance - Bell can clarify this.

Just a fyi: I've also seen Xede units go for ~600-800 slightly used (it's easy to flash and load maps). Although I would still consider the MS route.

BTW: Your gonna have to pull timing for anything over 6psi, the tuning side of things really isn't that hard I'm sure you'll get a feel for it after playing with it a bit. GL man.
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Old 12-16-2007, 02:11 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by mtncrvr View Post
Your gonna have to pull timing for anything over 6psi, the tuning side of things really isn't that hard I'm sure you'll get a feel for it after playing with it a bit. GL man.
It's not just pulling a bit as MAP increases, it's also adding it in down low to make the car more snappy out of boost and in low boost.

Mike, no offense man, but you're kind of all over the place with this. Which do you want, a piggy that just adds fuel with MAP over atmo, or do you want a standalone/parallel that gives you full control? They piggy is going to be easier to work with, but will be ultimately limiting. The standalone is going to be more work, but will have more potential, and safety potential. You're going to need to take an honest assesment of your goals and your capabilities.

If you go standalone, I say throw OBDII out the window, and go back to the stock ecu and injectors once per year. Just tie your WG open.
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Old 12-16-2007, 02:45 PM   #26
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Well, the idea of full standalone is kinda intimidating....getting it tuned and all. But i guess if i want the correct and safe power it's the way to go. I also forget that i have the BRP harness which would make switching between a standalone and stock for emissions pass a pretty easy deal. Im also under the impression that if i were to go with a full MS, getting a base map and getting it tuned is going to cost a fortune :(

What i need to do if completely forget about what i used to have and how simple/effective it was lol.
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Old 12-16-2007, 05:45 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by DropTopDrifter View Post
Woah there Killer. I didn't mean to in anyway, discredit what you factually do know about them. I just didn't want the "oh my friend didn't like it so it's crap" or "it didn't do what i wanted it to do" kinda response. But rather a "i've seen x,y and z happen directly because of theis system" was what i was looking for. Just coming out and saying that it blows motors leaves much to the imagination on why someone would say something like i did in return.
And what i meant by "a specific experience" was just that, A specific experience that left a bad impression.... not multiple cases of the Link failing to do its job.
Actually, I only saw one eat itself on the dyno, it bent the rod like freaking pretzel at 10 PSI and 220 RWHP on my dyno. Really nice. Wasn't even flogging it hardly, just a nice clean pull, let off the gas and shebang, bent rod. When I pulled the motor apart I was pretty pissed because it wasn't multiple detonation events because the piston had no sign of detonation at all, which means it was one nasty detonation that took out that rod but didn't harm the piston.

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I was hoping for actual accounts of what makes it bad. That's all, sorry for the mis-use of words

So you're saying that the Link is only good for 9psi or so? Yeesh.
No, I am saying that you are risking your motor unless you are running high octane fuel. I ran 12-18 PSI all the time, but I didn't trust the damn thing so I was running 100 octane gas. I would just fill up at willow springs, instead of diamond shamrock. Shell 100 Octane seemed to be find regardless of how much timing the car had in it. It just refused to detonate on that stuff. So personally, my experience with the Link piggy was a successful one... but I could make more power with a standalone wired in parallel by far and I have been running standalone ECUs in parallel on 99+ Miata's as long as anybody I know of.

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BTW Mark, what are you using for management?
TEC-IIIR, but it was just a basic street tune when I dyno'd the car at 300 RWHP.

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Is your block stock? I ask because i wouldn't mind seeing those numbers from mine down the road.
Not even close.

Rods, Pistons, Billet oil pump, dual valve springs, shim under buckets, etc. Still have the stock cams though and am running 9:1 compression.

I would highly recommend forged pistons and rods for any 300 RWHP miata.

Mark
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Old 12-16-2007, 09:22 PM   #28
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Ahhh ok. I cannot say that i'd be willing to hike 20 miles up the interstates to get 100oct. on every fill up for a daily driver. I know we have standard 93 oct. at the pump, don't know if that'd be good enough. So it looks like the Link will not work for what im going to need from it in the long run. Once again, MS seems to be the victor.

Meh, it's looking like im going to run the voodoo box with some 305cc injectors when i get the turbo put on and run 9-10psi for awhile until i can get a MS in and tuned. Then it'll be the fun of hooking up the stock ECU and injectors every year for emissions.
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Old 12-16-2007, 09:52 PM   #29
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Will the stock ECU idle the 305s worth a darn? I never messed with increasing injector size on the stock '99 ecu. Went from voodoo box to MS.
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Old 12-16-2007, 10:25 PM   #30
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i've heard it can hold a idle with 305's. I'll give it a shot. I want to find out the rating on the RDX injectors. If the 305's are too big, i'll find something a little smaller like the 295cc 3SGE Toyota or if worse comes to worse, i'll give a slight bump with some 265cc....15cc larger than what i have now. I'm feeling pretty sure that the 305's will work though.
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Old 12-16-2007, 10:40 PM   #31
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I think they will work fine.
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Old 12-16-2007, 10:50 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by DropTopDrifter View Post
Ahhh ok. I cannot say that i'd be willing to hike 20 miles up the interstates to get 100oct. on every fill up for a daily driver. I know we have standard 93 oct. at the pump, don't know if that'd be good enough. So it looks like the Link will not work for what im going to need from it in the long run. Once again, MS seems to be the victor.

Meh, it's looking like im going to run the voodoo box with some 305cc injectors when i get the turbo put on and run 9-10psi for awhile until i can get a MS in and tuned. Then it'll be the fun of hooking up the stock ECU and injectors every year for emissions.
I don't know if you are gonna be able to run 9-10 PSI on a T3/T04E with 305's, just an opinion. It's gonna REAL REAL tight.

Assuming 60 PSI rail pressure, 305 injectors, a BFSC of .50 and max duty cycle of .9, you might have enough fuel. My T3/T4 made 250+ RWHP at 10 PSI which is over 275 Crank HP. 305's with the above specs are good for 275 Crank HP, that doesn't leave much room for error. Then again, I might be wrong... but it's gonna be close either way.

Mark
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Old 12-16-2007, 11:10 PM   #33
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Thanks for clairfying that up. Of coarse i will bring the boost up slowly while tuning. Starting with 6-7psi and seeing what is where. Also, i have a Walbuzz 255 , and if needed, can put in a FPR. I just did a little injector research, too. Seems the N/A 7MGE injectors are actually 315cc and the 5SFE from the late model Camry/Solara 4cy are 295cc and the 3SGE are also 315cc. So the 315's might still hold a idle (10cc's more?) and allow me to make 10 psi.

[ur]http://www.toysport.com/webpages/Techinfo/References/injectors.htm[/url]

Also, the turbo is a .46 trim/.60 compressor and 63 a/r on the exhaust... so it's not really that big.





Starting to sound like too many band-aids to get things running. I need to shut up, get the turbo in , get the 305's and just run it safe until i can get a standalone lololol.
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