Piggyback VS Bandaids - Miata Turbo Forum - Boost cars, acquire cats.

Welcome to Miataturbo.net   Members
 


DIY Turbo Discussion greddy on a 1.8? homebrew kit?

Reply
 
 
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 03-20-2007, 10:33 AM   #1
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 93
Total Cats: 0
Default Piggyback VS Bandaids

So....I have most of my hardware for my turbo kit. I'm a little undecisive about engine/timing/fuel management though. Done many searches, but am looking for some live input at the moment.

Parts I will be running:
EBay Stainless Manifold and Downpipe
38 MM External Wastegate
DSM T25 with Internal Wastegate Welded
DSM IC converted to front mount
Recirculated bypass or BOV

I want to start out boosting around 4-5psi and have the potential to move up to 10-11psi. I was wondering if you guys could evaluate my proposed combos of fuel/spark management that will allow me to start at my desire boost level and progress up to the max with a little time and tuning. Bandaid engine management vs. piggyback is what I need the advice on. Here's my proposed combos.....

Bandaids
-Walbro 190lph fuel pump
-Vortech or Begi RRFPR (you tell me which is better, I like the vortech)
-Bipes controller
-O2 clamp
-XXXcc injectors to work with stock ecu and bandaids and allow me to reach my boost goals (possibly 1.8l injectors..you tell me)

Piggyback
-Walbro 190lph fuel pump
-Emanage Blue and associated harnesses
-XXXcc injectors to allow me to reach my boost goals
-Do I need an RRFPR or auxilary timing control or o2 clamp with the Emanage Blue?

Anthony
s10383 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-20-2007, 11:29 AM   #2
Elite Member
iTrader: (4)
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Charlotte, NC
Posts: 3,049
Total Cats: 4
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by s10383 View Post
Do I need an RRFPR or auxilary timing control or o2 clamp with the Emanage Blue?
o2 clamp = yes
rrfpr = maybe
auxilary timing = no, emanage blue can control timing

You may need an rrfpr if you need more fuel than the e-blue can supply, might not be necessary for you setup though.
Efini~FC3S is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-20-2007, 11:40 AM   #3
I'm Miserable!
iTrader: (1)
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Columbia, SC
Posts: 858
Total Cats: 0
Default

If I might make a suggestion, ditch the t25 and go with a 14b. I've used both and they are much more different than most people would think.
SloS13 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-20-2007, 12:06 PM   #4
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Knoxville
Posts: 1,168
Total Cats: 0
Default

piggyback like a EMB is just a fancy bandaid.
Al Hounos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-20-2007, 01:07 PM   #5
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: E.City NC
Posts: 81
Total Cats: 0
Default

Yeah, looking at a map out of a 14b and a t25 side by side, you'll definately want to go with the 14b. It has a higher boost potential and still spools up just as quick if not quicker than a t25.
yadayada is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-20-2007, 03:59 PM   #6
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 93
Total Cats: 0
Default

Yep. I agree that they are both bandaids...I should have worded it differently. the main difference between my two proposed combos is that the first one has seperate fuel, and timing controls while the second one...has the EMB which combines fuel and timing controls. So my combos should be seperate bandaids (bipes,fmu,clamp) vs one big plaster cast (emanage blue) lolol. I know standalone is the way to go, but this is a pretty budget based rebuild. I think I'm going to go with bipes and a walbro 190lph...run 4-5psi....then when I feel like pushing the boost up a little....I will get 1.8L injectors and a RRFPR. One more question...should I get an o2 clamp right off the bat or will I be allright running 4-5psi without one?
BTW...changing turbos aint gonna happen anytime soon...i already have a dsm t25, and dsm t25 mani and dp. I'm thinking at the low boost levels I will run + the external wastegate....it won't be that awful bad.

Thanks.
Anthony
s10383 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-20-2007, 04:36 PM   #7
I'm Miserable!
iTrader: (1)
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Columbia, SC
Posts: 858
Total Cats: 0
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by s10383 View Post
One more question...should I get an o2 clamp right off the bat or will I be allright running 4-5psi without one?
BTW...changing turbos aint gonna happen anytime soon...i already have a dsm t25, and dsm t25 mani and dp. I'm thinking at the low boost levels I will run + the external wastegate....it won't be that awful bad.

Thanks.
Anthony
A t25 and 14b use the same manifold and downpipe. They are interchangeable.

I've never had to use an O2 clamp (havent boosted my miata yet) but from what I've ready you don't always *have* to, but since you are going with the "T2Small", you are going to reach full boost before 4k even happens, probably even at partial throttle - so I would say it would be a wise choice.

Thanks,
Jess
SloS13 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-20-2007, 06:00 PM   #8
Senior Member
iTrader: (1)
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Burbank, CA
Posts: 536
Total Cats: 0
Default

I'm doing a similiar setup.


E manage Blue
T25
HKS Manifold
Custom DP
Walbro 190 LHP
380cc injectors
Bov
Custom IC
Begi FPR


and maybe Devil's Own kit.
PaKMaN is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-20-2007, 07:35 PM   #9
Senior Member
iTrader: (3)
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Northern Michigan
Posts: 898
Total Cats: 0
Default

I just "finished" this past weekend and the car is simply awesome, given its simplicity. I am peaking at 7psi and my afr logs seem fine, although I am going to have an expert take a look at them.

I am running;

LC1 wideband
BEGI 2025 (extra one is for sale in the classifieds..)
Olderguy's 02 clamp

Stock fuel pump checked out to 90psi, but I am probably going to put a 190 in for the hell of it. I am going to put in a bipes, for low rpm, and to try it out. But even running 6degrees, the car is really fun. Its not as fast as my fd rx7, but its definitely faster than my B16a ef civic. Next, I am getting a new standalone through a friend. I was going to go megasquirt/550cc but this will be easier for me. So I will be selling my megasquirt setup once it can be checked out by one of the gurus here. I am basically trying this simple setup first and I am actually surprised by how great the car is. I fiqured I can always have the stuff as a backup and always sell it here. I have to switch over eventually, cause my friends make fun of me.
rotaryjunky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-20-2007, 09:43 PM   #10
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Greenville, NC
Posts: 211
Total Cats: 0
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by yadayada View Post
still spools up just as quick if not quicker than a t25.
No way a T25 will spool quicker than the 14b

14b is a pretty kickass turbo, I ran a 1G DSM for years and was constantly amazed at what the 14b could do.
ecugrad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-20-2007, 11:57 PM   #11
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 93
Total Cats: 0
Default

Sweet rotary...that sounds real similiar to my goals.
I'm feeling the
-1.8L injectors just for a little extra fuel and lower duty cycle since they're good with the factory ECU
-BIPES timing control
- DIY 02 clamp that patrickb37 posted on the miata.net forums
-I'm going to hold off on the 190 walbro

I think that combining these simple controls combined with my front mount IC, recirculated BOV and external wastegate will give me pretty decent driveability and reliability (i know its a project so I'm not expecting to drive it cross country right away) I also understand the the ebay mani is a little weak so I'm gonna go some reinforcing welding on it before I even install it. I'm also gonna weld some brackets on the top side of the manifold and make some brackets that bolt under the little valve cover screws on the drive side valve cover...then connect the mani to the valve cover with a turnbuckle like setup to counteract the weight of the turbo stressing the mani. to head bolts.

So...anyone have some decent 1.8 tan tops they would like to sell?
BIPES ACU for sale?
Decent 02 clamp for sale?
Also...dsm t25 oil outlet flange for sale??

A
s10383 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-21-2007, 12:02 AM   #12
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 93
Total Cats: 0
Default

I just did a little extra researching....I'm I wrong in thinking that in order to run the 1.8 tan tops with the stock ecu and to not have to mess with the AFM I will need to get an RRFPR? If so....ad that to my DIY list of wanted to buy
s10383 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-21-2007, 12:22 AM   #13
AFM Crusader
iTrader: (18)
 
olderguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Wayne, NJ
Posts: 4,438
Total Cats: 84
Default

1.8 injectors with stock fuel pump and a Vortech or Begi is fine for 7~8psi as long as your FP will put out 78~80psi. As you go higher, you will need more fuel available(Larger injectors or 190lph HP pump)for the added Emanage to control.

With the IC, I would try to be a little more aggressive on the timing. You may not need the Bipes before going to Emanage.

I sell an O2 clamp if you need one. See the For Sale sticky.
olderguy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-21-2007, 12:37 PM   #14
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: E.City NC
Posts: 81
Total Cats: 0
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ecugrad View Post
No way a T25 will spool quicker than the 14b

14b is a pretty kickass turbo, I ran a 1G DSM for years and was constantly amazed at what the 14b could do.
That's why I said that a 14b will spool up just as fast if not faster than a T25

I'm running a DSM 14b and I am more than happy with how fast it spools up, it's instant boost almost with my 1.8l.
yadayada is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-21-2007, 05:50 PM   #15
Senior Member
iTrader: (3)
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Northern Michigan
Posts: 898
Total Cats: 0
Default

Just test your stock FP by hooking up a pressure gauge before the rail and squeeze the return line with a clamp until it is closed. That gives you the peak pressure your pump can put out, should be 90psi. This is not what it can maintain, which is only about 80psi, as said. You probably already know this, but what the heck.
rotaryjunky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-25-2007, 03:26 AM   #16
Junior Member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Mountain View, CA
Posts: 220
Total Cats: 0
Default

What cars come stock with the right 14b? Is it the TD05 14b? Are the a/r's always the same on different 14b's? I just need to know how to find the right used turbo for my 1.8l.
kylelind is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-25-2007, 03:42 AM   #17
Supporting Vendor
iTrader: (31)
 
Savington's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Sunnyvale, CA
Posts: 14,360
Total Cats: 1,323
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by s10383 View Post
Bandaids
-Walbro 190lph fuel pump
-Vortech or Begi RRFPR (you tell me which is better, I like the vortech)
-Bipes controller
-O2 clamp
-XXXcc injectors to work with stock ecu and bandaids and allow me to reach my boost goals (possibly 1.8l injectors..you tell me)
After you order a high-pressure pump the RRFPR or AFPR, Bipes, O2 clamp, and 1.8 injector, you'll be nearly into the price range of a Megasquirt with proper larger injectors, a stock fuel pump, and a knock sensor. You'll need a wideband no matter what you do. I considered doing all the bandaids, but I'm going with a PNP Megasquirt. Not a lot more expensive and a TON more useable. You can never get a perfect tune with an AFPR; you can with a MS. EMB/EMU is pretty much useless; it's just a fancy timing controller that costs nearly what a MS does. I wouldn't even bother looking into one, because you still need half the bandaids to go along with the EMB/EMU.

MS PNP - $750 including 4bar GM IAT w/ atmospheric correction
KnocksenseMS - $100
Wideband - $265
Injectors - $75 (search for Supra, WRX, or Rx7 injectors. Take your pick from 315cc, 420cc, 440cc, 460cc, or 550cc.)

That setup will take you waaaay further than your motor will.
Savington is online now   Reply With Quote
 
 
Reply

Related Topics
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
E-Manage Base Maps faviles5566 ECUs and Tuning 0 09-04-2015 12:50 PM
E-Manage Base Maps faviles5566 ECUs and Tuning 0 09-04-2015 12:50 PM
91 Miata Turbo ray_sir_6 AEM 5 09-21-2008 03:09 PM
MSPNP MM9697 Beta Testers Needed in Atlanta Area FoundSoul MEGAsquirt 39 12-10-2007 11:34 AM


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:18 PM.