PSA: EFR Turbo Oil Drain Information. Read this before designing your oil drain - Miata Turbo Forum - Boost cars, acquire cats.

Welcome to Miataturbo.net   Members
 


DIY Turbo Discussion greddy on a 1.8? homebrew kit?

Reply
 
 
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 07-14-2017, 12:33 PM   #1
SADFab Destructive Testing Engineer
Thread Starter
iTrader: (5)
 
aidandj's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Beaverton, USA
Posts: 17,408
Total Cats: 1,365
Default PSA: EFR Turbo Oil Drain Information. Read this before designing your oil drain

Spoke with Mike Franke from Southeast Power Systems today about what I now believe to be a drain issue on my setup. And he sent me a bunch of good information about the requirements for EFR oil drains. Thought I would share that information with you guys and hopefully help someone out in the future.

I'll start with a Facebook post from them. And will scrape the screenshots too.












Also here are links to both a very technical document on turbo oil systems, and a general guidelines for EFR.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B7...VxbHRxSWRzOXNZ

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7v...ew?usp=sharing

And a note on turbo seals. Turbo seals are just like piston rings, they are not meant to hold positive oil pressure into the turbo, they are instead meant to keep gasses from outside (exhaust or intake) from entering the CHRA. So if you end up with a backed up oil drain, your oil feed pressurizes the oil inside the CHRA and will push it out the seals. My specific issue is seeing smoke after hard driving, and then idling. I believe that this is because when I'm driving hard, there is a lot of pressure in the turbine housing and compressor housing, which means the oil is the low pressure area of the system. But when I stop driving hard, there is little pressure in the turbine housing, which means the oil cavity is now the high pressure system. And it leaks into the turbine housing. Of course this is all speculation right now, and I will come update this when I make a change and figure out if that was my real issue.

TLR is the following: EFR's can be particular about their oil draining, we knew this. I didn't know how particular. A properly designed system must be the same size as the turbo outlet, and stay that size or bigger to the oil pan. Oil leaving the turbine housing is not all liquid, but frothy too, and only has gravity too pull it down. You might be getting away with smaller drains, but if you have standard AN fittings most likely they are too small.
aidandj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-14-2017, 12:38 PM   #2
Murderator
iTrader: (76)
 
18psi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 34,852
Total Cats: 2,333
Default

Good reminder.
I always wondered why oil drains on OEM's are ginormous. This is likely why

I bet the reason for it getting so bubbly/frothy is from the fancy ball bearings. Journal bearings are simpler and therefore require much less
18psi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-14-2017, 12:39 PM   #3
Murderator
iTrader: (76)
 
18psi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 34,852
Total Cats: 2,333
Default

Good reminder.
I always wondered why oil drains on OEM's are ginormous. This is likely why
18psi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-14-2017, 12:39 PM   #4
SADFab Destructive Testing Engineer
Thread Starter
iTrader: (5)
 
aidandj's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Beaverton, USA
Posts: 17,408
Total Cats: 1,365
Default

And any sort of excess crank case pressure will also hinder the draining. So a mediocre drain + crank case pressure would make a really bad drain.
aidandj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-14-2017, 12:43 PM   #5
Murderator
iTrader: (76)
 
18psi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 34,852
Total Cats: 2,333
Default

And when you're making 380+ on a BP with loose clearances I bet it's that much worse
18psi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-14-2017, 12:45 PM   #6
SADFab Destructive Testing Engineer
Thread Starter
iTrader: (5)
 
aidandj's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Beaverton, USA
Posts: 17,408
Total Cats: 1,365
Default

lol. thats the other thing that Mike talked about. Crankcase venting. Any pressure at all in the crankcase will be detrimental. Even if its as ghetto as running a hose from your dipstick tube to your catch can, it can help.
aidandj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-14-2017, 02:07 PM   #7
Ich verstehe nur Bahnhof
iTrader: (3)
 
psyber_0ptix's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Northern VA
Posts: 3,303
Total Cats: 262
Default

Ah crum, I've been using the treadstone one, and it seems it's too small. Now I'm questioning my bung....

EFR & Garrett GT Oil Drain Return Flange, -10AN- TREADSTONE PERFORMANCE
psyber_0ptix is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-14-2017, 02:16 PM   #8
Murderator
iTrader: (76)
 
18psi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 34,852
Total Cats: 2,333
Default

ITT: Miata owners with questionable bungholes
18psi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-14-2017, 02:17 PM   #9
Ich verstehe nur Bahnhof
iTrader: (3)
 
psyber_0ptix's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Northern VA
Posts: 3,303
Total Cats: 262
Default

Edited for more ambiguity.
psyber_0ptix is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-14-2017, 02:33 PM   #10
SADFab Destructive Testing Engineer
Thread Starter
iTrader: (5)
 
aidandj's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Beaverton, USA
Posts: 17,408
Total Cats: 1,365
Default

If you are not having issues I would not worry. Either way oil blowby is not a fatal issue, and will usually clear itself up. There are extreme cases when enough blowby causes carbon buildup and housing contact, but that is rare.
aidandj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-14-2017, 02:37 PM   #11
Elite Member
iTrader: (8)
 
Ryan_G's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Tampa, Florida
Posts: 2,445
Total Cats: 135
Default

I have covered all of this information in great detail in my build thread as well. Mike Franke is also my BW contact as he is local to me. Probably a good idea to create a thread specific to this issue though.
Ryan_G is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-14-2017, 02:38 PM   #12
SADFab Destructive Testing Engineer
Thread Starter
iTrader: (5)
 
aidandj's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Beaverton, USA
Posts: 17,408
Total Cats: 1,365
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan_G View Post
I have covered all of this information in great detail in my build thread as well. Mike Franke is also my BW contact as he is local to me. Probably a good idea to create a thread specific to this issue though.
Yep. I followed your thread as well. I didn't remember seeing the 2 documents but I might be wrong. Didn't you also have an issue with the pickup tube blocking the drain?
aidandj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-14-2017, 02:39 PM   #13
Ich verstehe nur Bahnhof
iTrader: (3)
 
psyber_0ptix's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Northern VA
Posts: 3,303
Total Cats: 262
Default

My car has puffed blue smoke from dead stops although the leakdown and compression numbers are ****. I have two -10 AN ports on the valve cover to help facilitate venting, but I could never track down why I still see the occasional blue. This occurred on my previous build that blew also. Common denominator, oil pan, exhaust setup and oil drain.

At the time I was referencing the Full-Race/BW tech doc stating ~minimum -8AN. I thought I was in the clear with -10AN and built accordingly. Not good enough as things have evolved lol...
psyber_0ptix is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-14-2017, 02:46 PM   #14
Elite Member
iTrader: (8)
 
Ryan_G's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Tampa, Florida
Posts: 2,445
Total Cats: 135
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by aidandj View Post
Yep. I followed your thread as well. I didn't remember seeing the 2 documents but I might be wrong. Didn't you also have an issue with the pickup tube blocking the drain?
I think I included some pictures and references from the report he gave me after inspecting my turbo but I can't remember. Those may also have been loaded on photo bucket so I am not sure if they are even still up. I did have my oil pickup tube blocking my drain. I have since fixed that issue but I also had leaking valve seals which I just replaced this week. I have driven the car twice and seen no smoke but I need to clean out the intake pipes of excess oil and put It through the paces to be sure. I'll submit my findings to this thread and my build thread so it's easier for people to find.
Ryan_G is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-14-2017, 04:12 PM   #15
Newb
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Tampa, Florida, U.S.A.
Posts: 10
Total Cats: 2
Default

Hi, Everyone.

I had forgotten that I do have a profile here, and, as Aidan mentioned, I'm pretty familiar with the EFR Series, having been involved in the development as far back as 2008. If anyone needs any assistance with issues like this, please feel free to reach out to me.

I am available by email, and I use the same profile name on all major I/M programs, and am online during office hours, from 8-5 Eastern, Monday through Friday.
MFSPSTurbo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2017, 07:33 PM   #16
Elite Member
 
Chiburbian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Gilberts, IL
Posts: 2,100
Total Cats: 125
Default

This issue is not exclusive to EFR turbos. This issue seems to be exactly what I am seeing in my Precision 4828. Thanks for bringing this up because it means I may be able to correct this before installing my motor. I look forward to seeing what "best practices" result.
Chiburbian is offline   Reply With Quote
 
 
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:47 PM.