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Old 12-20-2011, 02:49 PM   #1
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Default Which Route to Go? (A Kick the Noob in the Junk Thread)

I've lurked for a bit and been through a lot of older threads and I don't see a direct answer to my specific questions. So here goes.

Some background: I'm a late 40s dad of three, one of whom happens to be a 4-month old. Yikes. I work a 50-hour/wk job and do a lot of freelance work by night. In other words, spare time is scarce (as it is with many of you, I'm sure, in this economy). I've always had the speed bug and I've owned some great cars (LT-1 '69 vette, built 240Z, etc.) but the last decade or so has been a blur of minivans and gasping 4-bangers. I want, no I NEED, something with juice, and my significant other is open to it. Reading how all of you rave about your Miatas has me leaning toward building a turbo'd version that I'd primarily drive on the street but occasionally autocross. Now, on to my questions:

- How much time do you have invested in your own builds? Did I just hear a collective burst of laughter, or was that a collective pant crapping?

- Is it a consuming hobby, and will my wife leave me if I take this on? Answer this carefully since I really like her.

- Is this pursuit only recommended for the mechanically uber-gifted, or can it be successfully undertaken by someone who has only done modest amounts of wrenching (like, well, me)?

- Finally, given my lack of free time would I be better off 1) buying an 04-05, MazdaSpeed and bolting on some basic parts to get around 200 whp, 2) finding a NA or NB car in good shape and tackling the whole nine (suspension, engine upgrades,induction, etc) over a much longer period of time or 3) finding a built-up beastie and capitalizing on the skill and effort of an accomplished wrencher (while hoping that he or she didn't drive its nuts off and leave it, well, nutless)? Which route do you recommend, and why? FWIW, my budget is between $8 and $12 K.

Steer me right, gents. It may be my one shot at the title.
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Old 12-20-2011, 02:58 PM   #2
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I'm 44, but married and no kids. I enjoy the wrenching.

That said, the MSM with bolt ons would be the easiest, quickest, arguably most reliable way to reach the end that you seek. The "recipe" is pretty well established so it would be a matter of unbolting and mounting new parts and could be accomplished with general hand tools and a long weekend. You can always add more later.

One other option if you are patient is to just sit here and watch the "for sale" ads. When you start seeing ads pop up and a lot of the regular users start piping up saying "great car, wish I had the money, GLWS" etc, it might be one to consider buying vs building. It will be DECIDEDLY cheaper. You can buy the mods for $.40 on the dollar pretty easily. It's a sad fact of life.
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Old 12-20-2011, 04:33 PM   #3
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Thanks, Stein. Yeah, I've been peeking at the For Sale section on and off and there have been some intriguing rides coming and going. I'm biding my time and trying to educate myself re: what constitutes a quality component and what the savvy residents consider junk. From a potential buyer's perspective it's good to hear that I can get great value for my buck with the right set-up, but it's a shame to see so many folks investing time, money and not a little bit of love into cars that sell for a fraction of their value.

Appreciate the reply.
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Old 12-20-2011, 05:08 PM   #4
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Old 12-20-2011, 05:34 PM   #5
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I built my first turbo car with the help of my friends. I'm gathering parts for my miata right now. It's definitely not a noob mechanics task but it's also not brain surgery. To build your own you have to enjoy building cars and really enjoy reading and learning IMO. If you are worried about loosing money, you are in the wrong hobby.

If you can't carve out some time, you are better off with a SPEED. Be careful if you buy a prebuilt that someone else did but you can find some good cars.
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Old 12-20-2011, 05:41 PM   #6
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+1 to posts thus far.


More specifically, imo:
time = money
wrenching skills = money
fun = money

Get my drift?
You want to have fun but not invest time or effort, you need to invest money.
Get a MSM (more money than a regular miata) and bolt on a few choice mods and you have a fun 200whp car.
Get a regular miata and bolt on a kit (more money than a diy setup) and you have a fun 200whp car.
Or
Pay a shop to do either or building you a badass custom setup (by again spending money) and have either choice.

Bottom line is money.
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Old 12-20-2011, 06:11 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GirlyMan View Post
- How much time do you have invested in your own builds?
For my own '92, about six years. Everyone's individual level of interest varies, I suppose, but I was never really "done" with the car until I decided to sell it and start fresh.

Quote:
- Is it a consuming hobby, and will my wife leave me if I take this on? Answer this carefully since I really like her.
So long as you confine yourself to street driving and the occasional autocross (and you're ok with the fact that you will never beat that damned Corvette with $40k worth of under-hood work done to it), I think your marriage will be just fine. If you start running actual trackday events, then just be sure you've decided in advance how you will handle being faced with the decision of whether to pay the alimony or the tire bill.


Quote:
- Is this pursuit only recommended for the mechanically uber-gifted, or can it be successfully undertaken by someone who has only done modest amounts of wrenching (like, well, me)?
If you start with a complete kit from a reputable vendor (more on that below) then I would put the difficulty of doing a turbo install at no more than the difficulty of doing a clutch replacement, primarily because you will most likely be replacing the clutch somewhere along the way, and that's the most difficult part of the process.



Quote:
- Finally, given my lack of free time would I be better off 1) buying an 04-05, MazdaSpeed and bolting on some basic parts to get around 200 whp, 2) finding a NA or NB car in good shape and tackling the whole nine (suspension, engine upgrades,induction, etc) over a much longer period of time or 3) finding a built-up beastie and capitalizing on the skill and effort of an accomplished wrencher (while hoping that he or she didn't drive its nuts off and leave it, well, nutless)? Which route do you recommend, and why? FWIW, my budget is between $8 and $12 K.
Ugh. That's a really difficult one to offer advice on, knowing as little as we do about you, your situation, etc.

If this is a second car, and you are able to leave it up on jackstands in the garage for days (or perhaps even weeks) at a time during the initial build process, then option 2 would be my obvious vote. The '99+ cars are getting downright cheap these days, and even if you went all-out and bought the most expensive complete turbo kit I can think of off the top of my head (the Hydra-based FMII at $5,300) you could still keep the initial build well within that range. Of course, at 250 WHP you start thinking a lot about tires ($600 + mounting for a set of RE-11s) and suspension ($1,000 - $1,500).

#3 is a tough call. If you are buying a car with a known history from a reputable builder (eg: someone on this forum other than Pusha), then you can score big-time here. On the other hand, it's always a crap-shoot. If nothing else, I personally wouldn't buy someone else's build simply because I like knowing precisely where every last wire, hose and valve in the system are, which is a lot easier when you put them there.

#1? Well, I've never owned an MSM. Only driven one once. They're gutless and underpowered in stock trim, and while FM does have some chili-sauce that can be applied, it's not exactly cheap. And from casually glancing around the classifieds, it seems that MSM owners also have a rather high opinion about the resale values of their cars.




Quote:
Steer me right, gents. It may be my one shot at the title.
Oh. Well, just buy a Porsche 993 then.



Quote:
Originally Posted by GirlyMan View Post
I'm biding my time and trying to educate myself re: what constitutes a quality component and what the savvy residents consider junk.
In terms of the core components of a turbo system, Bell Engineering and Flyin' Miata both put together good kits which are reasonably priced. We also have our own resident mad scientist, Tim (of Absurdflow) who builds tubular manifolds which border on the pornographic for those seeking a more DIY approach and seeking the absolute sexist-looking underhood experience.

That pretty well summarizes the "non junk" category.


Quote:
but it's a shame to see so many folks investing time, money and not a little bit of love into cars that sell for a fraction of their value.
I think that's just the nature of the beast when it comes to any kind of "serious" automotive tinkering, be it in the quest for power or for what some consider to be good looks. I sold my '92 earlier this year for $4k, and while I never did really sit down and add up all the parts, that was probably a little under 1/2 of what I've invested in the car (including the original purchase of the car in 2004).

Of course, there's another way of looking at that. We'll say that I sold the car for $5k less than when I'd put into it, and that I drove it for about six years. That's $69.44 a month, which is about one-third of what it would cost to lease a Kia Rio (the cheapest car I can think of off the top of my head) for the equivalent amount of time, and a hell of a lot less than the anticipated depreciation on pretty much anything I might have bought new.

So in the grand scheme of things, it's not nearly as bad of a deal as what most people consider to be "normal".
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Old 12-20-2011, 06:34 PM   #8
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Whats your location?
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Old 12-20-2011, 06:46 PM   #9
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I 2nd Joe's post on all counts. I have 3 kids, autocross the turbo miata, and generally enjoying tinkering with it, tho it really didn't need anything (Till we decided we wanted more power)

It doesn't have to be a time sucking hobby, turbo miatas when done correctly are not terribly unreliable, and certainly aren't expensive to maintain, time or money wise. You just have to determine what your level of involvement will be... Do you want to put the time in to build it yourself and learn how it all works? or do you just want to drive? I can tell you that being busy, and having an unfinished project in the garage can be quite frustrating, but maybe that makes it more fulfilling when you actually get stuff working.
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Old 12-20-2011, 07:23 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by ianferrell View Post
turbo miatas when done correctly are not terribly unreliable, and certainly aren't expensive to maintain, time or money wise.
Quite the opposite, indeed.

In the six years I owned my '92 turbo car, it left me standing precisely once, about a block from my house, and only because I was test-driving a new crank-trigger pickup circuit that I had just built from scratch, and like a complete idiot, I reversed the output polarity of the circuit. (How it even started in the first place wired like that I will never know.)

Apart from that, zero problems on what is now a 20 year old car. I trusted its reliability sufficiently that I twice drove the car from San Diego to Phoenix and back, and that trip takes you through a couple hundred miles of some pretty serious "you will die if you are stranded here without water and shelter" desert.

In terms of time and money, I could have stopped and declared the car "finished" years ago. I'm just the sort who can never stop tinkering with things. One of my primary reasons for selling it and buying the '90 that I have now is that I basically ran out of things to tinker with on the car and needed something new to play with.
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Old 12-20-2011, 07:32 PM   #11
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Options are endless. Every question you ask can go both ways... depending on you.

1. Go FlyinMiata. Install kit over weekend. Run Voodoo box. Enjoy fast reliable car. More money though.
2. Go ARTech/Absurdflow. Own the best hotside parts in miata existence. Still spend a decent chunk of change. Get a MS and sort out IC yourself. Takes a bit longer to do, but probably the best way to go for people who can wrench a bit.
3. Wait around and pick up parts from part outs at a decent price. Save money. Get good parts. More research and wrenching this route. Also will take longer.
4. Wait years, slowly piece together the cheapest costing kit ever. Spend least money. Have all used parts. Takes longest.
5. Ebay kit. Turbo hit block. Sad face.

A turbo miata tuned right, with decent parts, is probably more reliable than stock because the owner has a good idea wtf is going on under the hood.
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Old 12-20-2011, 08:51 PM   #12
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I would not buy someone else's project car in your situation. An aftermarket turbo Miata is never going to be OEM-like in reliability, it's always going to require at least a small amount of background tweaking and adjusting, and that requires a good working knowledge of what parts are in there, what they're supposed to do, how they're supposed to work together, and why they might be wrong. The best way to get that knowledge is to put it together yourself, and if you buy someone else's project then you have an uphill battle to develop it. Project cars sell at a substantial discount vs buying the parts and building it yourself -- this is part of why that discount exists.

Similarly, I would not recommend paying someone to install a turbo kit for you. All that does is get you into the same situation as buying someone else's project, except you spent a lot more money to do it.

My advice is to buy a pre-built kit (FM is my favorite), and put it in yourself, making sure that you have a garage in which you can leave a broken/disassembled car for long periods of time while driving your backup car (beater?) to work. You do not want to get into the situation where something is broken on the turbo car and you can't get to work until it's fixed. This is not the cheapest way to get a fast, turbo Miata, but IMHO it is the one that will get you a working car with the least hassle in the long term.

On the MSM front, it partly depends on how much power you want. If you think you're going to get bitten big-time, you might well end up replacing everything that makes the MSM special, in which case you've spent more money on your starting point that was really necessary.

As for time invested, well, yes. It's something I've spent a lot of time on, but that's in large part because it's something I enjoy doing. Regarding your wife leaving you... hard to say. My wife is really tolerant of my toys, yours may be less so. This is part of why I recommend having a backup car and a garage -- if you've got parts ripped out and scattered around the garage but it's time to do family stuff, you can just close the door and pick it up later.

--Ian
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Old 12-20-2011, 09:17 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by codrus View Post
An aftermarket turbo Miata is never going to be OEM-like in reliability maintenance
Turbos can be extremely reliable... but take a bit more care, as you said. I just felt it was the wrong choice of word. They are super reliable on the street. But like anything, you must take care of it.
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Old 12-21-2011, 02:13 PM   #14
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Wildanimal wrote: 'If you can't carve out some time, you are better off with a SPEED."

Seems to be the consensus.

18psi, your logic formula computes. Gotta spend money to save time.

JoePerez, six years? Damn, that's love and devotion. As for the vettes, my cousin has a built Z06 and it kills me to know that no matter what I buy or build the little punk will work me at will (even though he drives like a cherished part of the female form). Such is life. Sounds like your partial to the NB DIY, but you also sound a hell of a lot more mechanically inclined than most. Thanks for the tips and for the distilled summary re: what is aftermarket junk and what is not. Oh, and I found your perspective on the "true" cost of a modded car amusing, and your opinion that you're never truly "done" with a car enlightening.

chpmnsws6, I am located in the Fort Myers, FL area.

ianferrell, you touched on another dilemma. I want the car working NOW, but I'm jealous of the sense of accomplishment and camaraderie shared by you folks who've earned your modding stripes.

FRT, thanks for the punchy summary of options. I'll avoid the eBay sad face like a case of the clap.

codrus, your post captures my fears about buying project cars: many are junk and even those that are built well require firsthand background knowledge and considerable wrenching skills. And yes, I do have backup cars (2003 Jeep GC Overland, 2003 Mazda Protege5), and the extra garage space is underway.

Thanks to everyone who chipped in here. For the most part you've confirmed my suspicions about the best path to take. I'll remain open-minded, however. I always take my time making a purchase and I try to never fall in love with one car, so over the next 4-6 months I'll find a good deal on either a MSM, a clean NB or a modded car—in that order, with the MSM the clear frontrunner.

Thanks again for the straightforward advice.
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Old 12-21-2011, 08:15 PM   #15
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Any true car nut is never done building their creation. Building the car and learning is a lot of the fun.
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Old 12-21-2011, 09:38 PM   #16
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http://www.v8miata.net/showthread.php?t=493

Buy it. I drool at it every time I see it.
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Old 12-22-2011, 02:34 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GirlyMan View Post
JoePerez, six years? Damn, that's love and devotion.
Well, to an extent, owning a car mostly just gives me an excuse to tinker with something.


Quote:
As for the vettes, my cousin has a built Z06 and it kills me to know that no matter what I buy or build the little punk will work me at will (even though he drives like a cherished part of the female form).
I bring it up it only because you mentioned AutoX. As a turbo Miata, you're automatically in the SSM (Super Street Modified) class, which is mostly dominated by exceedingly fast, modified Vettes and RX7s. It's exceedingly difficult for a Miata to place well in that class.


Quote:
Such is life. Sounds like your partial to the NB DIY, but you also sound a hell of a lot more mechanically inclined than most.
Well, we've got a lot of mechanically-inclined folks here. But to be honest, none of this is really rocket science. Miatas are actually very easy cars to work on, and the engines are surprisingly durable. Even as a forced-induction virgin, it's honestly not that difficult to make respectable HP out of these vehicles.

As for NB vs. NA, I'm just being honest. Both of mine are NAs ('92 followed by '90) and I don't have a reasonable explanation for why that is. Even though they share broad parts interchangeability, the NBs are much more refined in terms of their suspension, interiors, and engines. The '99 and later heads, in particular, are a much better design than what the earlier cars got.

And, of course, they're newer. The reality is that the earliest of the Miatas are now older than some of their owners, and they're starting to show it. If you pick a later model car as your base platform, you'll spend less time fiddling with things like 20 year old clutch hydraulics and wheel bearings.

As for the MSM, the only real problem I have with them is that they still seem to be fetching a premium price-wise, and yet if you want to make "serious" power with one, you'll wind up spending nearly as much money in new parts as you would have if you'd started with a non-turbo Miata. So the initial price difference winds up being money (in the form of stock turbo parts) thrown in the garbage.

Quote:
Oh, and I found your perspective on the "true" cost of a modded car amusing, and your opinion that you're never truly "done" with a car enlightening.
Funny thing is that I never really sat down and did the math until I wrote that, but in retrospect, spending more than the original purchase price of my '92 on underhood modifications actually turned out to be an excellent financial move as compared to what a non-gearhead would have spent on a completely pedestrian and boring car over the same time period.


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chpmnsws6, I am located in the Fort Myers, FL area.
You have my deepest sympathy. (I grew up in Port Charlotte.)
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Old 12-22-2011, 06:50 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FRT_Fun View Post
Turbos can be extremely reliable... but take a bit more care, as you said. I just felt it was the wrong choice of word. They are super reliable on the street. But like anything, you must take care of it.
No, I said reliability and I meant reliability.

*Turbos* can be reliable, but cars modified to the level that most turbo Miatas have been are not. I'm not talking about major failures, it's little stuff like idle settings that need tweaking when the weather changes, nuts that work lose (not tightened properly when doing the install?), aftermarket clutches that suffer failures rarely seen in OEM ones, coolant reroutes that don't seal properly, intercooler pipes that blow off and make boost leaks, etc. OEM levels of reliability come from massive investment of time and money in R&D, testing, etc, and no aftermarket tuner can approach that, not even the high end stuff like Dinan.

There's nothing turbo specific about this, a car with a blower kit is just as susceptible to this kind of stuff, or even a heavily breathed-on NA car.

--Ian
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Old 12-25-2011, 07:36 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by codrus View Post
No, I said reliability and I meant reliability.

*Turbos* can be reliable, but cars modified to the level that most turbo Miatas have been are not. I'm not talking about major failures, it's little stuff like idle settings that need tweaking when the weather changes, nuts that work lose (not tightened properly when doing the install?), aftermarket clutches that suffer failures rarely seen in OEM ones, coolant reroutes that don't seal properly, intercooler pipes that blow off and make boost leaks, etc. OEM levels of reliability come from massive investment of time and money in R&D, testing, etc, and no aftermarket tuner can approach that, not even the high end stuff like Dinan.

There's nothing turbo specific about this, a car with a blower kit is just as susceptible to this kind of stuff, or even a heavily breathed-on NA car.

--Ian
I concur with this
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Old 12-25-2011, 09:10 PM   #20
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GirlyMan,

Just to give you an idea, My entire supercharging project, including all the prep work, took exactly 4 days.
I was driving happily after that.
On the other hand, those four days were about three years ago, and guess what..
I am still working on the car.
Like Joe Perez said, it never seems to end, and, you know, that's just fine with me.
I just keep adding, tweaking, finding better ways to accomplish certain things, and sometimes just reinvent the wheel.

To put things in perspective, here are a few things I dabbled in after the initial four day build:
* replaced the fuel pump and the fuel rail, and installed an adjustable pressure regulator.
* installed a 52mm radiator, fit slim fans on it, built separate relays for fans.
* built a very customized progressive port water injection system
* built and installed a COP system
* built a handmade bi-xenon headlight system (fast driving at night)
* installed a big brake kit, with hand-built caliper adapters
* scratch built a killer dual throttle setup for rock solid idle
* installed a nifty knock detection unit with hidden LEDs which become very visible in case of knock
* switched to 225/40/15 tires from the stock 195
* installed adjustable KYB shocks, and lowered the car with Tein springs
* Built an aluminum cold air intake
* converted the exhaust to a 2.5" setup with a big *** Borla muffler (that, I paid for. This magician of an exhaust master - Iskender Usta - did the work)
* Built and installed a separate auxiliary fuse box and a ton of relays for all the electrical crap I loaded in the car.
* stripped the entire interior and sound/heatproofed the whole car with this space age stuff I found.
* hell, I almost forgot... built, calibrated and installed a single din LCD gauge panel with 8 gauges in one place.
* installed a kickass alarm/remote starter system for the hell of it
* and a few other things I am sure I can't remember now.

Honestly, I do not want to ever say I am done with the car. I'd be bored.

Next project is a Reverant built MS with 650cc injectors. And, this spring is reserved for a killer built engine.

To answer your question, you need a few days building time, with a lifetime of commitment.
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