Stud Creep - Miata Turbo Forum - Boost cars, acquire cats.

Welcome to Miataturbo.net   Members
 


DIY Turbo Discussion greddy on a 1.8? homebrew kit?

Reply
 
 
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 09-08-2014, 12:13 AM   #1
Newb
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Gaithersburg, MD
Posts: 43
Total Cats: -3
Default Stud Creep

I'm having an issue with a couple of my manifold studs coming loose every so slowly while I'm at the track.

My hardware:
Mild steel log manifold
T3 turbo
Track speed stud kit

My flanges are flat, resbond used, and the retainers are snug against the turbine housing. I'm good for a couple hours on track, but over time the nuts become loose because the studs have turned.

What options do I have to keep the studs secure? I'd weld them in place, but holes in the manifold flange are closed on the back side. Would welding the nut the stud prevent the stud from creeping since the nut is secured by the retainer?
supersuckers is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2014, 12:36 AM   #2
Murderator
iTrader: (76)
 
18psi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 36,174
Total Cats: 2,575
Default

yikes, looks like you're using the right stuff, and still backing out.

maybe this?
Attached Thumbnails
Stud Creep-%24_35.jpg  
18psi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2014, 12:58 AM   #3
Senior Member
iTrader: (1)
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Tucson, Arizona
Posts: 889
Total Cats: 55
Default

try re-applying the respond? If you have already then that's whack. Speak with trackspeed. the expensive easy way is to go v-band.
krissetsfire is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2014, 06:48 AM   #4
Newb
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Gaithersburg, MD
Posts: 43
Total Cats: -3
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 18psi View Post
yikes, looks like you're using the right stuff, and still backing out.

maybe this?
I have the stage8 fasteners. Came with the kit. They are doing there job.
supersuckers is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2014, 06:55 AM   #5
Newb
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Gaithersburg, MD
Posts: 43
Total Cats: -3
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by krissetsfire View Post
try re-applying the respond? If you have already then that's whack. Speak with trackspeed. the expensive easy way is to go v-band.
I have my own bottle. I applied liberally and allowed it to dry for two days before installing the turbo.

Yeah, vband would be nice, but I need to work with what I have.
supersuckers is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2014, 08:06 AM   #6
Elite Member
iTrader: (3)
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Granbury, TX
Posts: 6,009
Total Cats: 583
Default

Not sure this would weld anyway due to all the dissimilar materials.

I'd be shocked if your studs are actually turning. Did you mark them somehow? How do you know they're turning? You could take a reference photo of the "TSE."

I'm kind of suspicious of your manifold. Mild-steel? That's not the proper material for this job. You need cast iron or a high-temperature stainless. My guess is that the threads in the mild steel flange are creeping enough to loosen the assembly.

Last edited by hornetball; 09-08-2014 at 11:35 AM.
hornetball is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2014, 10:16 AM   #7
Murderator
iTrader: (76)
 
18psi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 36,174
Total Cats: 2,575
Default

since when is mild steel not proper material?

both tim and abe use the stuff on most of their manifolds
18psi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2014, 11:34 AM   #8
Elite Member
iTrader: (3)
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Granbury, TX
Posts: 6,009
Total Cats: 583
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 18psi View Post
since when is mild steel not proper material?

both tim and abe use the stuff on most of their manifolds
From what I've seen, they mostly fab in stainless. ?? I don't think I've ever seen a mild steel turbo manifold. Maybe we need pics of op's manifold.

Mild steel that is subject to fastening forces (ie, threads) will let go at elevated temps. It's a physical property. It's why we use inconel studs. The turbo mounting flange threads see basically the same temps and forces.
hornetball is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2014, 12:29 PM   #9
Supporting Vendor
iTrader: (31)
 
Savington's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Sunnyvale, CA
Posts: 14,362
Total Cats: 1,323
Default

Which two studs are coming loose?
Savington is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2014, 01:30 PM   #10
Newb
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Gaithersburg, MD
Posts: 43
Total Cats: -3
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Savington View Post
Which two studs are coming loose?
The top two came loose. 2hrs track time on Sat, no issue. But when I started pushing things a little harder yesterday, I was able to turn the nuts maybe 50 degrees.

I did not mark the studs, but it seems to be the only logical solution since the nut cannot physically turn due to the stage 8 fasteners.

The manifold was fabricated by Abe at ARTech this year. My understanding is that he no longer builds manifolds out of stainless because they crack.
Attached Thumbnails
Stud Creep-photo.jpg  

Last edited by supersuckers; 09-08-2014 at 01:48 PM.
supersuckers is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2014, 01:56 PM   #11
Elite Member
iTrader: (1)
 
Leafy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: NH
Posts: 9,091
Total Cats: 90
Default

For this to be happening the stud would need to be turning in both the nut and the manifold at the same time. Which wouldnt work. I dont know where TSE sources their studs but we've had indian and asian sub-contractors blatantly forge material certs before. The studs stretching makes a lot more sense in this situation since you have the stage 8 nuts. I'd want to mic the length of all 4 studs and note their lengths then re-install and wait for this to happen again, then re-mic and compare. In the threads in the manifold were creeping they would probably be completely destroyed at this point.
Leafy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2014, 03:01 PM   #12
Supporting Vendor
iTrader: (31)
 
Savington's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Sunnyvale, CA
Posts: 14,362
Total Cats: 1,323
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leafy View Post
For this to be happening the stud would need to be turning in both the nut and the manifold at the same time. Which wouldnt work. I dont know where TSE sources their studs but we've had indian and asian sub-contractors blatantly forge material certs before. The studs stretching makes a lot more sense in this situation since you have the stage 8 nuts.
US supplier, certs in hand. I've had several customers neglect to use the Resbond provided in the kits who have seen the studs wind completely loose and take the nut/locking hardware with it. That's why we include the Resbond. You have no idea what you are talking about, as usual, and I would appreciate it if you would take your grossly uninformed and potentially libelous commentary elsewhere (or better yet, keep it to yourself entirely).
Savington is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2014, 03:06 PM   #13
Supporting Vendor
iTrader: (31)
 
Savington's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Sunnyvale, CA
Posts: 14,362
Total Cats: 1,323
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by supersuckers View Post
The top two came loose. 2hrs track time on Sat, no issue. But when I started pushing things a little harder yesterday, I was able to turn the nuts maybe 50 degrees.

I did not mark the studs, but it seems to be the only logical solution since the nut cannot physically turn due to the stage 8 fasteners.
Threads in the top two holes in good shape (no wiggling of the studs? Studs were bottomed out on the shank when they were installed?
Savington is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2014, 03:12 PM   #14
Elite Member
iTrader: (1)
 
Leafy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: NH
Posts: 9,091
Total Cats: 90
Default

Could you explain how the sud can unwind and take the locking hardware with it? If the stage 8 fastener works properly the nut wont be able to go along with the stud, unless one or the other is reverse threaded.

RE: Libel. I was taking all the blame off you bother and putting it on your supplier or supplier's supplier. IE, it wouldnt be your fault if someone 2 stops up the supply chain made a bad decision in the name of trying to save a buck. I've had material certs in hand from the sub contractor that said tested to rockwell 45c only to bust a gut laughing when the machine spat back at me 15c. This stuff happens, but if you're American all the was its incredibly unlikely.
Leafy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2014, 03:29 PM   #15
Elite Member
iTrader: (2)
 
fooger03's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Columbus, OH
Posts: 4,132
Total Cats: 187
Default

If the stud unscrews so far that it no longer has threads engaged in the manifold, then the stud will fall out, taking the nut and locking hardware with it.
fooger03 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2014, 07:39 PM   #16
Elite AbsurdFlow Member
 
Laur3ns's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Enschede, NL
Posts: 2,058
Total Cats: 11
Default

I've been through this horror. I had a BEGI cast manifold that had seen so many abuse that the threads just didn't hold anything longer than a few laps.

The TSE kit is the best you can get, but you need an almost brand new manifold to make it work. In that respect the TSE kit is not a last resort after everything else fails, because by that time your manifold threads are shot.

I'm now all V-band and it's heaven.
Laur3ns is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2014, 08:12 PM   #17
Newb
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Gaithersburg, MD
Posts: 43
Total Cats: -3
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Savington View Post
Threads in the top two holes in good shape (no wiggling of the studs? Studs were bottomed out on the shank when they were installed?
The manifold is new, so the threads are good as far as I can tell. There may be a tiny amount of wiggle in them, but less than the stud/nut relationship.

The studs are bottomed out in the manifold, but not to the shank. In order to get them to the shank, I'd need to shorten the stud. Once bottomed out, there is no wiggle whatsoever.

I just checked the nuts, and they appear to have stayed in place for an additional hour of track time after I snugged them down. And this was without the aid of the retainers.
supersuckers is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2014, 08:21 PM   #18
Supporting Vendor
iTrader: (31)
 
Savington's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Sunnyvale, CA
Posts: 14,362
Total Cats: 1,323
Default

Part of the issue is likely the stud being too long (not specifically designed for your mani), which doesn't let you preload it into the manifold. Resbond bandaids it into working anyway but the top studs are also supporting the weight of the turbo with your manifold, so they fail first. I've never tried to shorten one of the studs, but it's probably doable with an angle grinder and some patience (hacksaw need not apply). Don't cut too much off, you want as much thread engagement as possible (if for no other reason than to give the Resbond something to grab).
Savington is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2014, 10:56 PM   #19
Newb
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Gaithersburg, MD
Posts: 43
Total Cats: -3
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Savington View Post
Part of the issue is likely the stud being too long (not specifically designed for your mani), which doesn't let you preload it into the manifold. Resbond bandaids it into working anyway but the top studs are also supporting the weight of the turbo with your manifold, so they fail first. I've never tried to shorten one of the studs, but it's probably doable with an angle grinder and some patience (hacksaw need not apply). Don't cut too much off, you want as much thread engagement as possible (if for no other reason than to give the Resbond something to grab).
Any thoughts on welding the top of the stud to the nut?

Thanks for the support. Appreciated.
supersuckers is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2014, 01:08 AM   #20
Supporting Vendor
iTrader: (31)
 
Savington's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Sunnyvale, CA
Posts: 14,362
Total Cats: 1,323
Default

I wouldn't do it. I doubt the Inconel would play nice with the stainless turbo nuts. Cut the studs down, re-Resbond, and try it again.
Savington is offline   Reply With Quote
 
 
Reply

Related Topics
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Project Gemini - Turbo Civic on the Cheap Full_Tilt_Boogie Build Threads 57 07-19-2017 05:11 PM
Another Cast Manifold Corky Bell Prefabbed Turbo Kits 18 11-22-2016 10:01 PM
Stripped clutch slave bell housing threads. EricJ Suspension, Brakes, Drivetrain 6 09-13-2015 10:44 PM


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:59 PM.