Turbo with no fuelling.
06-19-2014, 03:52 PM
#26
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Colorado
Posts: 1,642
Total Cats: 36
Jesus. We don't even know if trubo hit bolck yet. Why worry about the ECU when we don't even know if the turbo can be installed?
On a serious note:
OP, I know well the difference between bandaids and real management, though I learned on a different platform. I tried using an SAFC, it was a dismal failure. And that was even with a separate datalogging setup in place that I doubt you would have if you took the bandaid route. If not for the logger I would have blown up the thing.
Basically, with a bandaid (like a powercard or RRFPR) you have a very limited adjustment range, and low resolution in that range to boot. Perhaps even more horribly, you don't have a built-in data logging capability.
Meaning that you have a fair chance of say, not being able to deliver enough fuel at all over a large portion of the rev range. If you do have the capability to deliver enough, you will almost inevitably deliver too much at one point, then too little at another. And you will probably not know where you are on that spectrum beyond some awful generalizations like, 'it smells rich'.
Or more importantly than fueling even, timing. You can certainly monkey with base timing and some sort of bandaid to alter the curve. But getting your timing low enough to avoid detonation (especially with the effed up fueling we just discussed) will probably result in your car driving like a dog at part throttle and under normal circumstances. Fuel economy will also go down the tubes.
And best of all, in the process of tweaking all this stuff in a half-assed fashion, you are very likely to run lean and with too much timing at some point, and not know it (no built-in data logging). Which can result in dead engine syndrome.
Suddenly the $300 bucks MAX you just saved by going with a bunch of bandaids instead of engine management like MS has been swallowed up with the ($xxxx) need to rebuild a shortblock at a minimum. And you were dog slow anyway when it was running because you were probably running too rich with retarded timing which did great for spool but resulted in a low TQ peak # that came on at about 4200 RPM and dropped like a rock after 5000. So sort of like the powerband of a large cube engine, but without the TQ and fun.
A rebuilt T25 turbo setup with MS and proper injectors and WB02 > a fancy Garret GTX or something running on bandaids. Not only will the properly managed setup drive better overall and be far less likely to explode, it will quite possibly be faster even in a plain straight line. And cost the same initially and cost less down the road when you don't have to upgrade a pile of crappy bandaids and a blown motor.
You can get a cheap intercooler and do OK. You can make janky charge pipes and do OK. You can get a fairly crappy exhaust manifold and do OK even. You can have a awful ill-fitting exhaust and do OK. You can even have a Chinese turbo and do OK. Engine management is one of the areas where its really just insane to skimp, mostly because doing it right is actually easier in the long run and about the same cost.
On a serious note:
OP, I know well the difference between bandaids and real management, though I learned on a different platform. I tried using an SAFC, it was a dismal failure. And that was even with a separate datalogging setup in place that I doubt you would have if you took the bandaid route. If not for the logger I would have blown up the thing.
Basically, with a bandaid (like a powercard or RRFPR) you have a very limited adjustment range, and low resolution in that range to boot. Perhaps even more horribly, you don't have a built-in data logging capability.
Meaning that you have a fair chance of say, not being able to deliver enough fuel at all over a large portion of the rev range. If you do have the capability to deliver enough, you will almost inevitably deliver too much at one point, then too little at another. And you will probably not know where you are on that spectrum beyond some awful generalizations like, 'it smells rich'.
Or more importantly than fueling even, timing. You can certainly monkey with base timing and some sort of bandaid to alter the curve. But getting your timing low enough to avoid detonation (especially with the effed up fueling we just discussed) will probably result in your car driving like a dog at part throttle and under normal circumstances. Fuel economy will also go down the tubes.
And best of all, in the process of tweaking all this stuff in a half-assed fashion, you are very likely to run lean and with too much timing at some point, and not know it (no built-in data logging). Which can result in dead engine syndrome.
Suddenly the $300 bucks MAX you just saved by going with a bunch of bandaids instead of engine management like MS has been swallowed up with the ($xxxx) need to rebuild a shortblock at a minimum. And you were dog slow anyway when it was running because you were probably running too rich with retarded timing which did great for spool but resulted in a low TQ peak # that came on at about 4200 RPM and dropped like a rock after 5000. So sort of like the powerband of a large cube engine, but without the TQ and fun.
A rebuilt T25 turbo setup with MS and proper injectors and WB02 > a fancy Garret GTX or something running on bandaids. Not only will the properly managed setup drive better overall and be far less likely to explode, it will quite possibly be faster even in a plain straight line. And cost the same initially and cost less down the road when you don't have to upgrade a pile of crappy bandaids and a blown motor.
You can get a cheap intercooler and do OK. You can make janky charge pipes and do OK. You can get a fairly crappy exhaust manifold and do OK even. You can have a awful ill-fitting exhaust and do OK. You can even have a Chinese turbo and do OK. Engine management is one of the areas where its really just insane to skimp, mostly because doing it right is actually easier in the long run and about the same cost.
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