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Old 08-11-2010, 11:46 AM   #1
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Thumbs up Tutorial:how to read a turbo compressor map

http://www.clubcalibra.com/engine-tu...gcifs9a7bsn0b2 there my 1st post in helping people on here.
i hope this helps you as much as it has helped me understand it!!!
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Old 08-11-2010, 12:15 PM   #2
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pretty good tutorial, I had no idea what I was looking at when I was looking at compressor maps
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Old 08-11-2010, 03:22 PM   #3
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Not included are the engine operating lines at various RPMs. It's always a a diagonal line going from the lower left where the 0 pressure ratio / 0 flow point would be, going up and to the right. As RPM increases the line leans more to the right. At a given RPM, the points on the line represent the engine flow at different amounts of boost. Anyone wanna draw up an exampe for a miata at 4000 and at 6000 RPM? The intersection on the 1.0 pr horizontal line would be the NA hp output of the engine.

redfred who's the hottie in your avatar?
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Old 08-11-2010, 03:54 PM   #4
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Yeah, i have never been able to figure out how to use compressor maps. Know about max power and PSI, but when putting in calculations to the maps online, i always get plots that seem way off. The ones where you put in injector/brake fuel consumption/ect.

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Old 08-11-2010, 03:55 PM   #5
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Compressor maps I have no problem with. How the hell do you interpret a turbine map?

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Old 08-11-2010, 03:56 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JasonC SBB View Post
Not included are the engine operating lines at various RPMs. It's always a a diagonal line going from the lower left where the 0 pressure ratio / 0 flow point would be, going up and to the right. As RPM increases the line leans more to the right. At a given RPM, the points on the line represent the engine flow at different amounts of boost. Anyone wanna draw up an exampe for a miata at 4000 and at 6000 RPM? The intersection on the 1.0 pr horizontal line would be the NA hp output of the engine.

redfred who's the hottie in your avatar?
Allison Stokke, hottest pole vaulter ever

http://freshpics.blogspot.com/2009/0...e-athlete.html

I wouldnt mind having her vault on my pole giggity
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Old 08-11-2010, 03:59 PM   #7
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Quote:
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Compressor maps I have no problem with. How the hell do you interpret a turbine map?

YES!!! Voodoo magic I tell you... And OP I have an Excel document to do compressor maps.
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Old 08-11-2010, 04:01 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Perez View Post
Compressor maps I have no problem with. How the hell do you interpret a turbine map?

You get 9.5-10.5 hp per lb/min, so it's only showing hp per PSI.

Of course, it also shows where efficency peaks, as it's a limit function, so you want to get a psi before the line levels out.


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YES!!! Voodoo magic I tell you... And OP I have an Excel document to do compressor maps.
Please post it up!
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Old 08-11-2010, 04:03 PM   #9
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So what you're saying is that it's the way to determine the choking point on the turbine side of things?
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Old 08-11-2010, 04:06 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thagr81 us View Post
So what you're saying is that it's the way to determine the choking point on the turbine side of things?
Yes. So on that turbo, i wouldn't want to go above 29psi as i'd expect nothing but hot air above that.

The lb/min corrected airflow doesn't make sense to me, i'll need to look more into that.
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Old 08-11-2010, 04:13 PM   #11
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The above, and typically published Garrett turbine "map" is merely the asymptote of the flow curves, at peak efficiency, of each of the constant speed lines.

A real, complete map is attached. The green lines are the flow lines for different, constant shaft RPM values. The red lines are the efficiency lines, at different values of shaft RPM. Constant shaft power lines would be hyperboles or 1/x lines. The published "maps" are the asymptote of the green lines.

You will see that the turbine gets more efficient at higher RPMs. This is why a GT2860 would have a lower boost threshold than a GT2871, despite the fact that the compressor efficiencies are similar, at say, 5 psi and 3500 RPM, and they have the same turbine - because the GT2860 compressor is spinning faster at that condition. The turbine will develop more shaft power at that flow condition when matched to the GT2860 - voila, it will accelerate the compressor faster.

Given a real turbine map and a compressor map, one would use some software to iteratively solve for the spoolup / boost vs RPM curve of a motor / turbine / compressor combo.

I hear the reason they don't publish the complete maps is it makes for much easier reverse engineering. If true, I think this reason is a wee bit lame.
Attached Thumbnails
Tutorial:how to read a turbo compressor map-turbine-map.gif  

Last edited by JasonC SBB; 08-11-2010 at 04:30 PM.
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Old 08-11-2010, 04:16 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nagase View Post
You get 9.5-10.5 hp per lb/min, so it's only showing hp per PSI.

Of course, it also shows where efficency peaks, as it's a limit function, so you want to get a psi before the line levels out.
The problems I have are:

1: That map shows what we're assuming to be the choke line at about 18 lbs/min, regardless of pressure ratio. The compressor map for the turbo I took that map from shows excellent flow all the way out to 35-40 lbs/min.

2: Pressure ratio where? Compressor pressure ratio? Ratio across both sides of the turbine?

3: What does "corrected" mean? What is uncorrected gas turbine flow? How do you correct it?
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Old 08-11-2010, 04:18 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Perez View Post
The problems I have are:

1: That map shows what we're assuming to be the choke line at about 18 lbs/min, regardless of pressure ratio. The compressor map for the turbo I took that map from shows excellent flow all the way out to 35-40 lbs/min.

2: Pressure ratio where? Compressor pressure ratio? Ratio across both sides of the turbine?

3: What does "corrected" mean? What is uncorrected gas turbine flow? How do you correct it?
Found the same picture Jason found, and here's a good thread with an explanation. http://www.turbominis.co.uk/forums/i...=vt&tid=182558

Was trying to sum it up, but i'll just link the source.

EDIT: Will post some answers here to make it so everyone doesn't need to read:

Q: Pressure ratio where? Compressor pressure ratio? Ratio across both sides of the turbine?
A: "the pressure ratio is across the turbine"

Q: What does "corrected" mean? What is uncorrected gas turbine flow? How do you correct it?
A: "the gas flow is corrected to temperature and exhaust manifold pressure"

This is a more detailed explanation of the efficency i was talking about:


"As we increase the mass flow to the turbine, at first it can "absorb" the increase almost completely. It does this by spinning faster. But as you continue to increase the mass flow rate, you eventually hit a point where the turbine starts to pose a restriction to the flow. Increasing the mass flow past this point you will now see a definite restriction from the turbine, and the pressure drop across the turbine will increase. Looking at the level part of each curve, you can see that you get to a point where you cannot force the turbine to flow any more, no matter how much you increase the pressure ratio across the turbine. For example, the curve climbs pretty far from a 1.5PR to a 2 PR, but after 2 it's almost level up to a PR of 3.

It just so happens that this restriction is a good thing, because unless the turbine is restricting flow, it cannot extract any power from the gas to power the compressor.

Said another way, once the curve starts to level out, the turbo is fully spooled-- it has reached it's maximum efficiency, or ability to get work from the available gas energy. Also note that you'll sometimes see the right hand side labelled as a secondary Y axis showing "efficiency". It just so happens that efficiency increases with a larger housing."

Last edited by Nagase; 08-11-2010 at 04:31 PM.
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Old 08-11-2010, 04:41 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nagase View Post

Said another way, once the curve starts to level out, the turbo is fully spooled-- it has reached it's maximum efficiency, or ability to get work from the available gas energy. Also note that you'll sometimes see the right hand side labelled as a secondary Y axis showing "efficiency". It just so happens that efficiency increases with a larger housing."

So at that point where the turbine side is maxed out(the curve leveling off), it's also the same point where the compressor side starts to build positive pressure?
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Old 08-11-2010, 04:45 PM   #15
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So at that point where the turbine side is maxed out(the curve leveling off), it's also the same point where the compressor side starts to build positive pressure?
No, the curve leveling off is when you stop getting more power from increasing to higher boost. The compressor should be making positive pressure long before that.

EDIT: Curve leveling off on the turbine side is when you stop making more power from higher boost on the turbine side. You still need to take in account the compressor side, which is why some vehicles can run higher PSI than others on a given turbo and still make more power then they would at a lower PSI.

Last edited by Nagase; 08-11-2010 at 05:07 PM.
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Old 08-12-2010, 04:33 PM   #16
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That above source also showed up on a Diesel Truck forum... http://www.dieseltruckresource.com/d...-t168543.html?
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Old 08-12-2010, 04:38 PM   #17
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If you read the thread i linked to, that's a link in the thread.
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Old 08-12-2010, 05:17 PM   #18
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Found it on the linked thread... Just found it by Googling and figured I would post the 'straight from the horse's mouth' thread.
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Old 08-12-2010, 05:40 PM   #19
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The reason that i didn't post that up is that it's discussed in the thread i linked that some of the information on there might be wrong. Would recommend reading the first linked thread before getting to that one.
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Old 08-13-2010, 12:07 AM   #20
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Ok, now I've got a half-dozen pages that I need to read through and absorb. On the plus side, it appears I'm not the only person who has asked these exact same questions...
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