My Turbo 10AE's dyno tune session
 

Here is where we started back in October 2014, NA:

Attachment 234473

Here is where I was after street tuning at 10 psi

Attachment 234474

And this is where we ended up with after tuning at about 15 psi.

Attachment 234475

Unfortunately, the RPM signal was getting flaky under higher boost and threw off the torque numbers later in the evening, but it gives you an idea to where I am at now. Here are my maps:

Attachment 234476

Enjoy

Looks like fun numbers!

Good Deal, Andy.

Did you tune for max torque at the 100kPa range? Historically, some guys here have run that lean, but most go for a bit more fuel.

Also, how much room (degrees) do you have between where you are running your 170 kPa timing, and detonation?

Are you talking about the ~14.5 @ 100kpa on the AFR table? We did the VE table by hand, so if I need to run VEAL for some reason, I will lower that 100kpa line in the AFR table closer to 12.5-12.8.

And we didn't really have to give it too much timing to get where we ended up. I definitely did not hear any pinging or detonation, so I am not sure exactly how much further we could push it. What is your 170kpa range look like on your ign table?

I'll have to send you my timing tomorrow. I have not been on a dyno, yet, so was trying to get a feel for what is working on a similar engine. Did you use Det Cans, or naked ears?

OK, so you did tune for torque or at least a richer AFR at 100kPa. I'm at 13.5, which I believe safe, runs well, but is likely not ideal.

By the way. We talked earlier about starting settings. I was still way off. I now start on first try down to 25*, though not as smoothly as I'd like, but it goes start to run within 700 mS of syncing (start of regular logging, which I assume is right at sync). I'm probably at 2 times as much fuel against where I started.

Naked ears. The tuner I was with has a lot of experience... mostly on 1k+ hp 2J builds, all on MS, so I trust his instinct.

If you compare my VE table to AFR target, you can see it is not a drastic change in VE, like the change in the AFR table. Now that I think of it, I will probably switch back to richer AFR targets at that kpa because I have "incorporate AFR" on.

And I think we figured out the starting issues/kickback I was having. We flatlined the dwell battery correction a 100% and it has started everytime without kickback. I feel it's a mix of that and the COP setup I am running that has been giving me the trouble. Now I can get back to adding more fuel for that smoother/less cranking start.

Good power and congrats.
1 thing: did you not use any boost control? a tater should be able to reach peak torque by 4k at the latest, that looks like some really slow spool
excellent peak power though

Thanks alot :) I am happy with it, I just gotta get used to the extra power now.

For some reason, boost control tuning wasn't panning out like we wanted it to on the dyno. I had OL set up, but would often hit overboost. It seemed like I couldn't get a good balance between quick spool and over boost. So we set up CL. It wasn't cooperating with us and had a lot of oscillation that wouldn't go away no matter what level of PID and slider adjustments we did. So we ended up finishing the power tuning in OL. Today I set it back to CL and did some PID tuning and got it much better in short time, since we had it pretty close on the dyno. It feels much better now, and boost by gear is pretty awesome.

So you need to make a spreadsheet with AFR targets and VE. Everywhere you lower the AFR, you need to lower the VE the same amount ratio metrically, to keep the same fuel. 14.5 to 12.5 is a factor of 0.862. So if you change a cell from 14.5 to 12.5 in the target AFR table, then multiply the VE in the same cell by 0.862 as well. This is because in the fueling equation VE is in the numerator, but AFR target is in the denominator.

This is for if you have Include AFR now and plan to leave it that way.
The trick is that the AFR table goes 100 to 130, but the VE goes 95, 105, 115, 135. That means you need to all interpolate the AFR table to the same kPa rows before you make the adjustments.

If this does not make sense, or it does make sense but you don't know how to do it, we can talk on the phone, if needed.

Main thing is that you cannot just change the AFR targets now and not screw up the actual fueling.

I like the concept of including AFR, but wondered how it would work in an actual tuning session for just this reason, that the tuner would change the VE when he might should actually change the AFR setting. Kind of complicates that aspect… when to change what when you are paying by the hour.

Oh, 2860, forget my comment about similar set-ups.

I'll try and do some driving in the 100kpa area and get a reading what the actual AFR turns out to be. If it's mid twelves to 13 or so, I guess I'll just leave it be.

Check my spool data on the collective thread, I was hitting 10 at a little over 4k or 4200. It seems to require a little heavier breathing to get it up to 15 tho. I don't have the logs to see when I actually got there to compare to the dyno graph. And that was on OL too.

I didn't look at it the first time, but that AFR target table is terrible.
Aside from that opinion, your car is setup very well. I dig it a lot. I'm getting MS3 in the next few weeks, and a LC2. I assume you're happy with those items on your car?

maybe spool isn't the right word

I'm talking about torque

it looks like you get to 200tq all the way at 5500

that's wayyyyyyyyy late. a gt35r can likely spool faster than that.

a tater should hit 200tq by 4k at the latest.

thirdgen makes a good point though (I didn't look at your maps before either).

not only is the target afr table terrible, but the spark map is really weird too. you run a lot of timing up to 100kpa, then just drop it like a rock. there is no way that your car needs even remotely close to -10* to -15* going from 100kpa to 130kpa

maybe that's why it's making torque so late.

even out the map

Great powa there !

Did Jordan tune this?

Made some adjustments to the tables on the way to work this morning, will fine tune later. Incorporated AFR makes a big impact on actual AFR, it made a significant difference. And i felt the power earlier with the additional timing, thanks 18!

Attachment 234471

Attachment 234472

And yes, that was Jordan's work.

Thanks elior!

Andy, here is my present timing table:
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...1&d=1421240093

Also, as I noted, the cells where you changed the AFR targets should now be very rich. If that is true, please let me know, so I don't walk around ignorantly mistaken on how things operate.

Thanks, DNM

1. you need a MBC, even at 10psi.
2. omg that spark map sucks.

I am however getting some spark breakup at about 5k rpm under full boost. I have the FAB9 COP setup wired wasted spark, need to wire it up sequential to hopefully get rid of that issue.

Need MBC? Can you enlighten me a little please? I thought most of you run solely CL EBC and praise it's goodness?

What don't you like about the spark map?

Yes, the cells I changed brought the afr down at that range. However I did not touch the VE table as you suggested.

Do you have the "old" fab9 igniter or the new one? The old one has issues with the MS ECU's. I was having spark breakup, then after a free swap to the new igniter I haven't had any problems.

Keith

boost control in general. Boost seems really late.

your torque curve below 5K looks majorly low. not kinda low. not sorta low. majorly low.

I dont see any boost plots in here, do you have a log? because if you're actually spoolin' fine, then there's some other issue.


spark map is VERY conservative in boost and retard timing WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY too fast. very aggressively conservative.

you retard 10° by 4psi. I might have pulled 1-2° at that point.

I have the new one, and I don't have any problems till about 13 psi+ and 5k rpm. I have contacted Brian @ fab and he has suggested some minor changes in the dwell settings. Tried that and did not help. He said if that doesn't work, running sequential spark is the next thing to try.

Are you still wasted spark?

Ok I see, we were having some trouble with the EBC tuning and was burning up time on the dyno. So by the end we tuned for peak power and decided to tune EBC on the street. The charts I posted were using OL too.

And the low timing would also inhibit spool as well, correct?

I am seriously not trying to be cute here.

For me, the primary reasons I would go to a dyno would be to set timing, with an eye on max torque power but some detonation headroom. I suppose I don't understand what your goals were.

All I really wanted was to see where I was at when I was at 10 psi, and go up from there. My hp goal was really only to hit about 230ish, but 250 came really easily so we left it at that and I didn't want to go any higher. I also wanted to be sure I wasn't going to run into problems with detonation, so I'm guessing that's why my spark maps are conservative. Im ok knowing that my end tune wasnt perfect, but I'm glad to know where I am and that I can fine tune the rest myself. I don't mind tweaking the maps on the street, as long as i know I'm not pushing the limits in terms of power. To me that means: keep it under 15 psi, leave the spark and fuel maps alone at the 200+kpa range, and I can play with the rest. From my understanding, there are better dynos than a dynojet for tuning other than peak power...

Might be odd, but it makes sense to me :)

Ahh, this is the DynoJet with no steady-state tuning feature, only inertial run-ups. Somehow, in the conversation, I got the false impression this had the steady-state feature set. My mistake. Makes more sense now, Thanks.

can we see the boost plot from a log? im curious. want to make sure theres not other issues with the setup.

No biggie, I wish we had a steady state setup. We woulda accomplished a bit more I feel.

Brain, in a little bit I'll post up a screen shot of my boost control settings and a log for you. That'd be awesome if we see something I can improve to get a quicker spool!

Would you like to see a 5th gear WOT run? A rip thru 2nd and 3rd? Anything in particular?

did you log the dyno pulls?

3 or 4th gear from like 2k to redline.

Pretty much exactly what I was noticing on Facebook #boostedmiatas.

Here is a dyno printout from my time on the dyno last year. I hit a peak boost of almost 14psi. Also, you can see that I crossed into 200lb/ft at about 3,700rpm. This was a precision 4828 so maybe it's a tad better than the 2860, but it shouldn't be too far off. Our setups are pretty similar.

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1421338412

What's funny is you're actually pointlessly aggressive in your NA 100kpa row. 28* is pretty much the magically number for peak power in any properly timed 90-05 engine. You're 4* past that...

Here is a dumb question and you may have already answered it...

Did the tuner touch your timing at all? If so, did you adjust your trigger timing in tunerstudio? Just thinking (without comparing spark maps etc) that perhaps your spark map is compensating for a trigger that was never adjusted OR even possibly is still locked to 10 degrees. I am not on a computer where I can look at logs or else I wouldn't be asking these silly questions.

My spark map for comparison:
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1421340567

EBC settings for quick reference:

Attachment 234470

and a few logs, one was gettin on the highway in 3rd and running thru a few gears. The others are 5th gear pulls. I didn't see your request before getting back on the highway. Will log more if needed. Also attached tune.

If you look at the boost duty cycle in the logs, why does it drop to the low 30's when it hits only 3 or 4 psi? If the target is say, 205 kpa, why doesn't it hold 100% DC/block all flow to WGA untill closer to its target?

And the dyno logs are on my tuners laptop...

I see that. Do you think VVT is helping that a bit tho as well?

He made adjustments more at the top end, but it doesn't look like much was done in the lower boost areas. And yes, I set my trigger offset initially AND turned off "fixed 10* timing" :)

i can get on board with chi's timing table.

One thing I see right off the bat is your "Lower Limit Delta" of 80kpa.

Tunerstudio documentation says this:

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...1&d=1421350036

What you are saying in effect is, start trying to use closed loop boost control until I get within 80kpa of my target. If you are at 100% throttle and your target is 200, it is going to be doing math once it crosses 120kpa. The way I understand it, is you should keep the delta as low as possible so it keeps your wastegate closed as long as possible. Try putting 30kpa in that and see how it goes. If it overshoots, raise it. If it is slower to build boost but doesn't overshoot, lower it.

I read that in the reference manual, however one part I don't quite get with that statement is valve held open (0% DC I assume?) = pressure open to WGA, not open valve = closed wastegate. But either way, say if the process starts at 120kpa, it should still be holding the valve closed till closer to the target, would you agree? It knows what the target it, why would it open the valve so far from it?

I'm definately gonna give it a shot tho. I can see that the DC is 100% till 123kpa, and may target was 203 kpa... 80kpa away. Good lookin out man :)

I pulled up your log in excel which while it doesn't let me see pretty graphs (by default) it does show me some interesting things.

From what I am seeing, the Megasquirt is pulling your boost duty down to 35% at 4100rpm because it's initiating the closed loop process and starting at 35 per your initial duty table.

You have two things working against you. First, you have a HUGE discrepancy between your target and your actual boost level. Additionally, your PID loop is starting with 35 and making adjustments from there - except it doesn't seem to be doing anything... If anything it is lowering your boost duty? Maybe?

I am a big fan of closed loop, but I still don't really understand how to tune it properly. If you did a fresh install of tunerstudio, what are the default values? Should you adjust the sensitivity slider before or after adjusting PIDs? What should the initial value be for the sensitivity slider?

Start with changing your delta and do another run. (I bet it will scare you)

ETA: Where did you get that initial duty map from? Did you do an open loop tune to see what duty cycles create what boost? It seems like your low rpm initial duties are a bit low to say the least.

Per Curly's open loop boost tune of Blaen99's car:

I don't think the 35%DC is from the initial duty table. At 4100 RPM and 125 kpa, the ID table is at about 20%

I set the delta to 27.5 kpa (4psi) but have not done a test run yet. Gave the car enough of a beating today...

And for tuning PID properly? I've read set to 100, 0, 0 and lower the P from there till you reach target. Then add I (consequently adjust P again) to maintain boost across the RPM range, then add D to dampen oscillations. Slider? not sure about that... It looks like I can do slider only or slider and PID combined.

And I think we got the ID table from roughly what I had set in OL. Is curly suggesting 100% from top to bottom from 0 to 2500, and 80% from top to bottom 3250 and up?

Also, something cool to get your settings a little more accurate...

Switch to open loop mode. Make sure to copy down your existing open loop numbers.

Then, put all cells to zero. Record what your max boost achieved is.

Progressively work your way up from zero. Maybe go by 5's initially until you go over your wastegate pressure. Once you break wastegate pressure, back down by 1 at a time until you once again settle on wastegate pressure. That is your "zero" for "minimum duty percentage".

I am not sure how to compute the maximum off the top of my head.

At 4,100rpm your TARGET at 100% throttle is 203. Your initial duty table lookup at 203kpa and 4100 rpm is 35%.

BTW: I was unclear as to how the target duty table worked until looking at your log by the way. Now it all makes sense

I can't say. That is what it took for open loop to reach his boost targets.

Maybe invite Curly into this thread? (send PM?)

at all 0's, it wouldn't reach 10 psi, 0 is full open. Do you mean set to 100%/close the solenoid off? Overboost set to maybe 16#?

There are so many things going on at once, I wish I knew what kind of order they are in.

Initial Duty table
Boost Target Table
Boost by gear/TPS/VSS calculations
PID
Slider

It seems like it should be simpler. Stab the throttle, MS does whatever it needs to in order to reach target. Or am I just overthinking it?

No, what I am saying is that at 0% duty, the boost signal is traveling through the fully open EBC solenoid into the wastegate. 100% of the boost signal MAY still hit the wastegate at 5% EBC duty... Maybe at 10%...

I can't think of a good way to put it at the moment.

Hi.

Yes, from top to bottom (because TPS was acting funky) was 100% until 2500rpm, and 80% at 3250.

Since I didn't have any experience with EBC, I went with what my very experienced tuner was used to, which was 0% = 0% boost (wide open) and 100%=100% boost, or completely closed.

There's a option in your boost control to switch it from inverted or normal (not typing on a TS computer, so those menu names are off the top of my head), make sure you know which one you have selected, and what each one means in terms of 0% or 100%.

Also, I used open loop boost control. I'd suggest you do the same until you find out what percentage equals what boost level, what boost level you actually want for your engine/turbo/clutch/transmission setup, what boost you tune to at the dyno, and then enter those desired parameters to tune your closed loop until it starts controlling boost properly.

Ah I see what you are saying. This is to figure out at what % does the solenoid actually do something/give you anything over WG pressure. I get you now. Then with that % being the minimum, It will never allow straight WG pressure.

Something like that. Sometimes you want it to be straight wastegate, but if that's at 50%, there's no reason to be below ~45%. Otherwise it'll be hunting forever to get back up 50%, and then it'll finally start increasing boost.

Hi curly, thanks for joining in.

I guess I should've said it wouldn't allow anything LESS than WG pressure.

And yes, mine is set and verified to be 0%=open=minimum boost, and 100%=closed=max boost.

You are probably right... maybe I'm just not ready for CL quite yet.

Can't get my laptop to connect to the web at work but here's a shot of the log.

Attachment 234469

I set the delta to 27.5 psi before target, and it holds the valve 100% DC till just about 10 psi, but it still doesn't reach full boost till 5700 rpms in both 2nd and 3rd gear shown here.

Ok cool. I checked my settings this morning.

My delta is 14kpa and my control interval is 10ms. Although - that interval may be too short. The manual recommends 20ms to start.

I hate to just cut/paste timing maps willy-nilly but I'd be interested to see how your engine reacts to my timing map. It is based on one that is pretty well respected around here (I can't remember who's map it is). Are you running 91 octane or 93? I have had no problems with this map on 93...

Maybe lower your target boost (at 100% throttle) to 190kpa for safety's sake and load my timing map and see how it pulls up to 190 to start?

I run 93 as well so it's worth a shot to give it a try.

what happens during spool with the vacuum line to the wastegate pulled?

looking at that log it almost appears like the function is inverted, where 100% is wastegate.

just seems like such slow spool... what turbo is it? unless it's ungodly in size, most turbos should be hitting target boot levels between 3.5K and 4.5K.

Seems like the safer thing to do is to just turn boost control off, no?

It's a 2860 Brain.