1.8 NB Oil Pumps? - Miata Turbo Forum - Boost cars, acquire cats.

Welcome to Miataturbo.net   Members
 


Engine Performance This section is for discussion on all engine building related questions.
Sponsored by:
Sponsored by:

Reply
 
 
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 12-31-2011, 03:57 AM   #1
Senior Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (4)
 
mr_hyde's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Seattle
Posts: 799
Total Cats: 25
Default 1.8 NB Oil Pumps?

I'm putting my 1.8 back together and MMD lists two Oil pumps for NB 1.8s:
Pump, Eng Oil
99-03 BP4W-14-100A
04 BP6D-14-100

The '99 to '03 pump is less than half the cost of the '04 pump. Did Mazda increase pressure or flow in '04 for the oil supply to the MSM turbo? Any ideas what the difference is? I did some searching and found this thread https://www.miataturbo.net/showthrea...t=56016&page=2from 3/11 where Joe presented this question:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Perez View Post
In '99, everything changed. The assembly went through three major revisions, starting at BP4W-14-100 (through VIN-9301), moving through BP5A-14-100 (VIN 9301-0701), and ending at BP6D-14-100. None of these are similar to any NA, and I wouldn't expect them to be. Crank sensor, remember? (Distressingly, I can't find any part numbers for the actual cast housing.) The internal changes for the first rev change (at 9301) were fairly trivial. At the 0701 change, however, they changed the internal gears. Prior to that, they were the same as the NA. Afterwards, they went to inner = BP6D-14-132 and outer = BP6D-14-141. These pumps are all noted as applying to engines with a casting mark of "BP4W", which is definitely the '99-'00 engine.

The last catalog I have is for '01, and it's where things get weird. I downloaded this catalog directly from Mazdaspeed Motorsports' website (link) and it's marked "Mazda MX-5 Miata, USA & Canada ('01 > )"

That catalog lists exactly the same oil pump and internals as the '99 catalog. It also says that the casting mark should say "BP4W".

Trivia time for owners of VVT engines: Does the casting mark on your engine still say BP4W, or did they update it to read BP-Z3?
I don't know that I need to go crazy on this build but is it safe to say I want the more expensive pump listed for '04? Did the newer pumps get beefier for VVT in '01 or for the turbo in '04? The MSM doesn't have VVT but I can't imagine they would have gone backwards to an inferior pump - especially with the added demands of turbo oiling. The shortblock I'm building is from an '04 MSM and will be basically stock with China rods. Thoughts?
mr_hyde is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-01-2012, 12:14 PM   #2
Junior Member
iTrader: (1)
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Colorado
Posts: 166
Total Cats: 5
Default

I just ordered one for my 94/01 hybrid motor. I ordered the 01 pump, BP6D-14-100, and that is what was shipped.
GraemeD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-01-2012, 12:48 PM   #3
Elite Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Detroit
Posts: 1,524
Total Cats: 27
Default

When you installed it, did you use the o-ring and paper gasket?
flounder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-01-2012, 06:05 PM   #4
Elite Member
iTrader: (2)
 
fooger03's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Columbus, OH
Posts: 4,133
Total Cats: 188
Default

Sounds like you've researched most of what I know:

Mazda continued to use the same oil pump in '99 and '00

In 2001, with the addition of VVT, mazda changed to an oil pump with a slightly higher volume.

At some point in time after changing to the higher volume oil pump, mazda then superceded the '99-00 oil pump part number with the newer high volume part number. NA cars retained the smaller pump part number.

The difference in the oil pump is the thickness of the oil pump gears which also means the housing was machined larger in order to match. The actual dimensional difference between the two oil pumps is 19 thousandths of an inch. The gears are indistinguishable when not next to one another, but if you lay the two on a flat surface and run your fingernail across them, you'll notice that one is indeed thicker than the other. The only circumstance where this could be a problem is if you tried to put aftermarket gears of one vintage into a housing of the other vintage. The smaller gears wont prime in the larger housing, and the larger gears wont fit into the smaller one.

With regard to a change in '04, this is news to me. I would have expected mazda to use the same VVT pump in the turbo model, but I have no evidence to support my theory. If you are using a water cooled turbo, your engine wont see a substantial increase in oil use from the turbo feed, each individual piston squirter probably uses more oil than the turbo.

You could call the mazdaspeed guys if you like, they've got a solid knowledge of anything you'll find in a spec series, and I expect that they've been asked before "wtf" with regard to the pump pricing.
fooger03 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-01-2012, 06:13 PM   #5
Junior Member
iTrader: (1)
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Colorado
Posts: 166
Total Cats: 5
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by flounder View Post
When you installed it, did you use the o-ring and paper gasket?
I have not installed it yet. But, the outlet has a o-ring, but there are two possible inlet gaskets, I ordered both and will figure it out later. This is going on the '94 bottom end, maybe your inlet tube/screen is different.
GraemeD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-01-2012, 06:47 PM   #6
Senior Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (4)
 
mr_hyde's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Seattle
Posts: 799
Total Cats: 25
Default

Thanks. I'm one of the mazdaspeed guys who is supposed to know and we don't usually do a lot of cross vintage builds. Everything I have read supports what you are saying with the puzzling exception of MMDs part number break between '03 and '04 instead of '00 and '01 like it should be. I guess this isn't the first time a parts list is off by a few years. I'll buy the bigger pump and be done with it . Thanks!
mr_hyde is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-01-2012, 06:52 PM   #7
Elite Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Detroit
Posts: 1,524
Total Cats: 27
Default

When I took off my 99, there was the o-ring and a paper gasket. Funny thing was, the o-ring was stuck to the block and the paper gasket was stuck on the pump side. Since the pump has a relief in it for the o-ring, I put that in first and then using a small amount of sealant I stuck the paper gasket on top of the pump surface, added some sealant to the other side and then installed it on to the block. I'm having my doubts about this?

The paper gasket covered up the o-ring so basically it's block, paper gasket, oring, pump. I am hoping that the ring still seals with paper inbetween the ring/block surface.
flounder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-01-2012, 08:36 PM   #8
Supporting Vendor
iTrader: (31)
 
Savington's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Sunnyvale, CA
Posts: 14,367
Total Cats: 1,332
Default



I do not use the paper gasket. I can't actually remember the last time I saw one on a disassembly. The pumps have a sealant groove so that's what I use. The o-ring is required, though.

I also remember the pumps all being the same price once you get through the supercession part numbers.
Savington is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-01-2012, 11:47 PM   #9
Boost Pope
iTrader: (8)
 
Joe Perez's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Delicious and Moist.
Posts: 26,326
Total Cats: 1,926
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fooger03 View Post
In 2001, with the addition of VVT, mazda changed to an oil pump with a slightly higher volume.
(...)
The difference in the oil pump is the thickness of the oil pump gears which also means the housing was machined larger in order to match. The actual dimensional difference between the two oil pumps is 19 thousandths of an inch. The gears are indistinguishable when not next to one another, but if you lay the two on a flat surface and run your fingernail across them, you'll notice that one is indeed thicker than the other.
This is consistent with my recollection of what Travis (of Boundary Engineering) found while designing the billet gears, and I believe (but have never been explicitly told) that this is essentially the basis for their "Racer High Flow Oil Pump Assembly."
Joe Perez is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-02-2012, 10:16 AM   #10
Junior Member
iTrader: (2)
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 207
Total Cats: -14
Default

So an 01+ oil pump is essentially a high flow pump? MSM even more or the same?
TheDriver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-02-2012, 12:17 PM   #11
Elite Member
iTrader: (2)
 
fooger03's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Columbus, OH
Posts: 4,133
Total Cats: 188
Default

For purposes of ordering a new pump, 99+ part numbers are relatively "high flow". If savington is correct, then it sounds like the 04+ is the same.
fooger03 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-02-2012, 02:46 PM   #12
Boost Pope
iTrader: (8)
 
Joe Perez's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Delicious and Moist.
Posts: 26,326
Total Cats: 1,926
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDriver View Post
So an 01+ oil pump is essentially a high flow pump?
The difference as compared to an NA pump is apparently quite small, but essesntially, yes.

Quote:
MSM even more or the same?
As Jeff and Sav have noted, this all applied only to original manufacture; these days, the later-style pump is spec'd as the replacement part for all.

I can't imagine that the MSM would have received a unique pump. Its oiling requirement is less than a non-MSM engine of the same year, as the MSMs didn't get VVT.
Joe Perez is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2012, 09:04 AM   #13
Elite Member
iTrader: (12)
 
GeneSplicer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Birmingham, AL
Posts: 2,006
Total Cats: 147
Default

So another question - I was planning on using a Boundry pump with my 94 block and VVT head. When HOT, will there be enough flow pressure to operate the VVT without issues - using Rotella 1040? I'm assuming it won't be a problem if I shim the pump - but we all know how that goes.
GeneSplicer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2012, 10:23 AM   #14
Junior Member
iTrader: (1)
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Colorado
Posts: 166
Total Cats: 5
Default

I chose the 2001 pump because Mazda made it for the VVT application. Other wise I could have just reused my 94 pump. Because of the additional demands of the VVT, the larger volume is welcomed. Now if I was going to boost it, there would be a Boundry Engineering pump being installed, but with my "girly" N/A build, it is not needed.


Quote:
Originally Posted by GeneSplicer View Post
So another question - I was planning on using a Boundry pump with my 94 block and VVT head. When HOT, will there be enough flow pressure to operate the VVT without issues - using Rotella 1040? I'm assuming it won't be a problem if I shim the pump - but we all know how that goes.
GraemeD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2012, 09:17 PM   #15
Elite Member
iTrader: (2)
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 8,782
Total Cats: 119
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GeneSplicer View Post
So another question - I was planning on using a Boundry pump with my 94 block and VVT head. When HOT, will there be enough flow pressure to operate the VVT without issues - using Rotella 1040? I'm assuming it won't be a problem if I shim the pump - but we all know how that goes.
Yes there will be enough flow pressure. I use Rotella synthetic. Hot oil pressure at idle is very low- like 7psi but is around 40-45psi above 4000rpm. Yes the cam advances properly. I have watched the live data readout.
Faeflora is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2012, 11:15 PM   #16
Elite Member
iTrader: (2)
 
fooger03's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Columbus, OH
Posts: 4,133
Total Cats: 188
Default

Boundary makes gears for both pump specs, just ask travis for the VVT spec when you're ordering gears - I would order by phone instead of via website so that you can talk to him.
fooger03 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2012, 02:25 AM   #17
Supporting Vendor
iTrader: (31)
 
Savington's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Sunnyvale, CA
Posts: 14,367
Total Cats: 1,332
Default



Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Perez
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDriver View Post
So an 01+ oil pump is essentially a high flow pump?
The difference as compared to an NA pump is apparently quite small, but essesntially, yes.

Quote:
MSM even more or the same?
As Jeff and Sav have noted, this all applied only to original manufacture; these days, the later-style pump is spec'd as the replacement part for all.

I can't imagine that the MSM would have received a unique pump. Its oiling requirement is less than a non-MSM engine of the same year, as the MSMs didn't get VVT.
Actually, you should be able to get the 99-00 thin pump from comp still. I know I have gotten at least one thin pump in the past.
Savington is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2012, 02:38 AM   #18
Senior Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (4)
 
mr_hyde's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Seattle
Posts: 799
Total Cats: 25
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Savington View Post
Actually, you should be able to get the 99-00 thin pump from comp still. I know I have gotten at least one thin pump in the past.
MMD had two distinct 1.8 pumps available last week. I'm just going to run the big one and an ATI. I can't afford Travis' gears with everything else needed at this point. Hopefully nothing blows up.
mr_hyde is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2012, 01:46 PM   #19
I'm Miserable!
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 346
Total Cats: -223
Default

So I've got a 99 OEM pump. I'm going to get something from boundary engineering. I'm leaning towards the 01-05 gears since they're billit and flow more than the 99-00 gears would but will they fit in the 99-00 housing correctly? Should I just bump it up to the street/strip setup with 2 or 3 shims? Racer assembly worth another $100 over the street/strip setup? FYI running a 1.9 up to possibily 500 but probably around 300 most of the time.

What's the best course of action here? What's overkill? What's not enough?
Boost Joose is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2012, 03:35 PM   #20
Supporting Vendor
iTrader: (31)
 
Savington's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Sunnyvale, CA
Posts: 14,367
Total Cats: 1,332
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boost Joose View Post
So I've got a 99 OEM pump. I'm going to get something from boundary engineering. I'm leaning towards the 01-05 gears since they're billit and flow more than the 99-00 gears would but will they fit in the 99-00 housing correctly? Should I just bump it up to the street/strip setup with 2 or 3 shims? Racer assembly worth another $100 over the street/strip setup? FYI running a 1.9 up to possibily 500 but probably around 300 most of the time.

What's the best course of action here? What's overkill? What's not enough?
The answer to at least one of your questions is literally answered within this thread. Did you bother to actually read it?
Savington is offline   Reply With Quote
 
 
Reply

Related Topics
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
OTS Bilstein to motorsports ASN conversion stoves Suspension, Brakes, Drivetrain 5 04-21-2016 04:00 PM
Noob to Miataturbo from MA JxPhan Meet and Greet 3 10-02-2015 03:17 AM
Moroso Air Oil Separator Catch Can Aroundcorner Miata parts for sale/trade 2 10-01-2015 04:20 PM
Walbro 255lph Fuel Pump $50 lsc224 Miata parts for sale/trade 2 10-01-2015 10:17 AM


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:21 AM.