1300 or 2000cc Injector dynamics and precision 600 or vibrant 550hp intercooler
 

Looking for a little help after searching and ready several post on both topics. Basically trying to make a decision and need some help making it up.

Finally got the car on the track for a shake down and did some datalogging.

1st. I maxed my 1000cc injectors at 100% duty at 19psi running E85. I need more injector.

2nd. Intake air temps where reading from 180-200deg on a 80 deg day.. need more intercooler.

I apologize in advance if I just could not find any specifics on my level of power for what people are running reliably on a track. Everything I could find was around 350hp- 400hp max.

thank you in advance for any help.

Sizing injectors is easy. What is your HP goal?

What a horrible, horrible decision to have to make. My condolences.

Get the big ones.

As far as power goals. No limit. Current turbo set up should be good to upper 20s psi. Which should get me to around 500hp at the wheels. I'm just sick of buying injectors every couple years because I upgrade something. I'm a little disappointed because I was told when I order my 1000cc they would be enough for the turbo on E85.

Intercooler size. I'm wondering what people Have found for hear soak on the track. Bigger isn't always better. I want to size it correctly so I'm not hurting my spool.

Isn't Soviet running those injectors at likely quite a bit more power than what you're making?

I'm not sure what he is running. I know nothing about his set up.

ID1000s, EFR, 29psi. ALLOFIT. You most certainly should not be maxing out those injectors at 19psi on that turbo.


https://www.miataturbo.net/build-thr...ild-you-61522/

Go for the ID1300. They are much better tech than 2000cc.
For intercooler, I run a precision 600 and I like it. Although I expect there would be little difference between the two options (vibrant vs precision).
I run 60psi base pressure though and I did pretty much max out the injectors at 460whp.
And he most certainly could be maxing out the injectors at 19psi if he has a good flowing head. I have a stock head so I run a lot of boost to compensate for shitty flow.

MY QUESTION is what transmission are you running?????

My question was (and i suppose i don't really know) is that we think he's making 460whp @ 19psi on a 3071? I'm not seeing it.

why not, even the normal GT3071r flows 50lb/min and the GTX3071r is closer to 56lb/min
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1402335495

EFR6758 flows 53lb/min
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1402335495

Damn the GTX3071r could flow 50lb/min at as low as 13psi (190kpa). Thats good for 450whp, I think.

I stand corrected. Apologies for shitting up the thread, clearly i'm just used to motors that flow even worse than BPs. :rofl:

1300's won't get you to 500whp on E85, though it will get you close. You're going to need 2000's if you're really looking for 500, or you are going to need 2-stage injection.

Never going to happen. The only way you move 50lb/min at 13psi is through a bunch of big ports into a large-displacement motor (a quartet of BP ports does not qualify).

The best BPs are doing ~72-74lb.ft/L-atm, which means that at 13psi you're looking at a max of ~250wtq, which means you need ~8400rpm just to fall short by 50whp.

Soviet's car on a junkyard head at extremely high boost pressure (near maxing the turbo) is doing ~69lb.ft/L-atm (390wtq@3bar). My old GT2871R setup at 17psi did 71lb.ft/L-atm (295wtq@2.2bar). The math works for every legitimate dyno sheet I've ever seen.

OP needs more base fuel pressure, not more injector. He should have tons of headroom with ID1000s at 70psi base with 20-25psi and a referenced FPR.

To answer the if its fully built. Yes, The head is fully built with 1mm oversized inconel and stainless valve with shim under bucket conversion with full spring kit. It,s fully ported and running 64mm matched throttle body. flows out just as well with full 3" outlet housing back magnaflow muffler and stainless CAT. Im boosting 18psi at 4700rpm and it justy keeps climing or would if I wasn't running out of injector.

Currently the stock 5speed. Have not decided on 6speed as they are not reliable at my level. Quafe 5 speed sets I guess break at this hp level as well. Kind of waiting for someone to do the leg work to figure out a t56 or t5 swap. Its got a 3.9 torsen from a 01.

I am also running 60psi base pressure on Full FM Flex Fuel big fuel Kit.
thats why im a little disapointed. When I ordered it I asked if the 1000cc can hadle 500+ hp

I called Precision and asked what the pressure drop of the 600hp incooler was and was very suprised that its upwards of 5psi. NOT GOOD. would have to get a bigger Turbo:vash:

Vibrant is claiming 1.5PSI drop on the 550hp cores. They also have updated the design to the offset vain design that Precision uses insted of strait threw.

Think im going with the Vibrant from Fab9 as it already has mounting tabs for the Miata.

As far as injectors the Price differance between 1300 and 2000 is $20. Im just worried about low rpm behavior of the massive 2000cc injectors.

Wait.... doesn't the FM kit ship with the same pump that Soviet has so many issues with?

Actually, its a great pump if you rewire it. I had issues with it because I was trying to run 90psi fuel pressure (60 base + 30 boost). If you run less boost you can run less pump, as long as its rewired.

p.s. unless you have a fuel pressure sensor there is no way you can confirm that you do, indeed, have 60psi fuel pressure in boost. It could be dropping towards redline.

Wrong, sorry. Soviet is making 460whp on 1000s. 500whp on 1300s should be a piece of cake. You just need proper base pressure.

OP, does your FPR have a boost reference? Are you using an NB fuel system or something?

Something is wrong with your fuel system - there's no way you are maxing ID1000s at only 20psi. I ran them at 350whp at <70%DC with a proper fuel system.

Flyin Miata "big fuel kit" is an overpriced piece of shit, imo

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1402338303

$10 says the OP is running unreferenced and trying to make 350whp with ~40psi of differential fuel pressure.

While it's cute of you to call me out, the fuel pressure required to get there on 1300's is higher than I'm comfortable with. Differential pressure of 60psi at 25psi boost is 85psi rail pressure. No thanks.

FPR is boost referanced with base pressure set at 60psi. fuel pump is rewired and running off a HYdra 2.7 with Flex fuel sensor and full an lines to FM dual feed rail. Im pretty sure im getting enough fuel to the rail as what I have found this system can flow a bunch of fuel. I did some research and found the FM's mule car for Flex fuel was maxing out 1000cc injectors at 80% duty during a 430hp run. Wish I new this before ordering 1000cc.

Injector Dynamics website has data that said at 107psi the 1000cc injectors can flow a max of 1300cc.

Or doesn't have enough fuel pump and fuel pump wiring.

wait, how is 80% duty maxing out the injectors?
pretty sure its 97% duty for full-sequential @ 8000 rpm.

ID says their injectors atomize ideally at ~90psi. Max allowed pressure is downright silly, something like 120-130psi IIRC. Anything lower than 90psi and you aren't getting the full benefit of their spray pattern. I had the same reservations when I built my E85 turbo car 5 years ago, and a quick phone call to ID put them to bed. I ran ~85psi of rail pressure on that car for over a year with no issues (70psi+reference).

No call-out intended, just correcting something that's obviously incorrect. Don't get your panties in a wad. :party:

Sheeeeeeit. I run 80psi of rail pressure through some old EV1 Supra 440s, been doing it for 2-3 years. Not a single fuck was given.

Thats the quote from the Youtube video.

As from my research and from working as a auto Mechanic for 15yrs you never want to see a injector running to full duty cycle. So technically 80% might be maxed out for safe reasons.

My injectors are running 100% duty durring data log. Boost referanced at base pressure of 60psi.

RC told me the max allowed pressure on my RC750s was 65psi. I lol'd and put them up for sale that afternoon. :party:

Pump, no. Wiring, possibly. I still have a hard time with that, though, since IIRC Soviet didn't see fuel pressure drop until 25psi and north of 400whp. That 5psi of pressure makes a big difference in the current required to run the pump.

e: Flex fuel sensor should be fine, it's in the return line as-delivered from FM.

I would have taken that to mean "at the nozzle" and immediately set out to see what happened at 65psi base.

I plan on running the RCs i'm chucking in this time around to 80-90psi rail pressure at TEXAS% duty cycle. What's the worst that can happen?

I guess it has gotten a little off topic as I am just wondering if 1300 cc injectors wil be enough with some head room or if I just need the 2000cc. Ben I do believe answered this with the 2 stage set up question. Just wanting to verifiy on that at 500+ hp 2000cc are required unless running 2 sets of injectors. i would tend to lean towards the 2000cc as long as people have not seen idling or low rpm no load problems with this large of a injector. The intercooler im still wondering if i need even larger then the 600 or 550 for again safe margin for track use for intake temps. Im leaning away fromt he precision do to the high pressure drop.

Again thank you all for any help given.

Eh. 80% used to be a good rule of thumb for injectors that required long dead times to open (EV1, etc), but with the new fast-acting EV14s, you can safely run them up to 90%. It actually varies with RPM, as Soviet mentioned, since the max allowed DC is engine cycle time in milliseconds (time it takes for the crankshaft to rotate 720deg), minus the dead time of the injector. Old injectors required 1.2+ms of dead time, but a good EV14 is closer to 0.6ms. When you're spinning the crank once every ~8.5ms, half a millisecond matters.

As long as you can get the injector fully closed before the ECU commands the next pulse, you're good to go. ID actually issues a chart that does the math for you.

http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/022...Duty.png?32193

If it is true that they want to see 90psi i have no problem bumping my base fuel pressure. However, based on them being maxed at 100% duty already at 18-19psi. im not sure this is going to solve the issue of not enough injector. I will be running more pressure with whatever new in jectors I get.

Im just worried that 1300 will not be enough and I dont want to buy 2 more sets of injectors.

You don't understand how injectors work. More fuel pressure results in more flow. You are maxing out the injectors because in the duration of 4 strokes the injector can only inject that much fuel. If you raise the pressure, it can inject more fuel. The difference between 60 and 70 psi is 7% extra flow.

I'll buy them from you at a discount :)

I'm not worried about the injectors; I was thinking of the rest of the fuel system. My level of comfort on certain things has grown more conservative over the years. Yes I've gotten away with it in the past, too. I've also seen a couple cars burn to the ground.




The injectors are maxed out when increasing values in the VE table does not affect air/fuel ratio. With older style injectors, that tends to occur around 80%. Newer EV14 injectors can be run to 85%, possibly higher.
For the record, I have a set of ID1300s en route to play with.

1300ccs should be more than enough injector, but the problem is that you shouldn't be maxing the 1000s you have with your fuel setup. Adding 1300s or 2000s now would be a bandaid on internal injuries. Others have done exactly what you are trying to do (450whp on E85 with ID1000s, 60psi base + atmosphere reference), so there's no reason you shouldn't be able to do it too. Do you have fuel pressure data at high RPM? Any idea how much power the car is making at 19psi when you're running out of injector?

Currently the stock 5speed. Have not decided on 6speed as they are not reliable at my level. Quafe 5 speed sets I guess break at this hp level as well. Kind of waiting for someone to do the leg work to figure out a t56 or t5 swap. Its got a 3.9 torsen from a 01.

Hmmmm...Maybe I'm retarded, but I grenaded my five speed on much MUCH less power....

How in the hell are you running what sounds like 400whp through a 5 speed and a 3.9?

Please dont take this the wrong way. I do know how injectors work as I my job is to diagnose drivabilty problems every day at work. im a advance level diagnostic automotive technician and have been doing it for 15yr. I currently own my own shop and all i do are the hard diagnosic jobs that dont pay to keep the rest of my employees at 120% effiancy.

i know fuel pressure directly relates to flow of an injector. im worried that with what i would concider to be a safe level of margin for fuel pressure which I guess is 90psi according to savington is what ID's want. im ok with that.

As far as duty cycle yes they are ok at 97% at 8000 rpm according to the chart but that is it. im not ok with that. i want to see some slack. again. I dont want to buy 2 sets of injectors if i decide to madify something else. IE custom intake or larger turbo. buying 2 sets of $950 injecdtors is not on my list of enjoyable spending.

The 1000s will be up for sale.

I don't think you're understanding. Nobody is saying that for whatever reason you AREN'T seeing 100% duty cycle, we're just trying to figure out WHY.

How much power are you making?

Please don't take this the wrong way, but it appears you are completely full of shit.

Many on here are certified techs, also many others are business owners. (I happen to be both).

You're grammatical errors, along with some other statements made make me think you are not as qualified as you say.

Best of luck becoming the first 600 whp miata that uses a stock 5 speed.


P.s... The leg work has already been done as to retrofitting stronger transmissions..Maybe you should look into them more.

P.s.s. Before the obligatory excuse about being on your phone..this entire response was sent from one.

On paper, 1000cc injectors are maxed out at 400hp when running E85 at 60psi differential pressure.

tl;dr: Your car is broken, larger injectors probably won't fix it, you are throwing money at a problem that can be solved with a small amount of diagnostic work (which you claim to do for a living), please answer my questions so I can help you run the tests that will determine where the actual fault in your system lies (hint: it's not the injectors).

There is no such thing as "safe margin" for a fuel injector.

Its a simple, mechanical solenoid that is either on, or off. How is it that being on 80% of the time vs bein on 97% of the time is a safety margin?

im not. its been out of the garage for 1 track sension. did some datalogging and put it back in the garage untill i get this all figured out.

erm :party:

If only there was someone running e85 with 1000cc injectors at 60psi differential pressure - then we wouldn't need "on paper" estimates.

You do realize that posters on this forum/in this thread have made 15% more power than that on those exact injectors on that fuel at that differential pressure, right?

On paper, reality is impossible :party:

e:f,b

Cool, how many is people, 1?

Math doesn't lie. 85% DC is good for ~400 whp @ 60psi differential. 95% DC should get you to ~450. Not everyone is comfortable running that high DC or that high FP. If you are, your call.

status: BALLEOUR

This would go along with my datalog info. as it was a shake down and have not had it to a dyno yet to fully tune i would have to guess that its running around 400-430 hp at the wheels based on on paper. This is also why I have not been chassing maybe problems witht the fuel system. pressure regulator is reading right at idle at 62psi exactly. have not checked at fuel rail as i would need to buy an fitting adapters for fuel pressure gauge.

I very well could have a problem. However, my line of thinking was in the same direction as ben. 1000cc injectors will not net 500rwhp. they are to small for my goals datalog aside. I just included that as a main reason for switching to larger injectors becuase it was obvious I was sold undersized injectors.

Im asking what injectors would people suggest for track use that still idle for 500rwhp.
if the answer is 1300 so be it. if its 2000 great.

Yes. I know how to diagnose and fix cars on a day to day basis. however, building big power reliable miata track car is not my thing as of yet. just looking for some guidence. my build started off as a day driver that i wanted more power8 yrs ago. fm offered a 2500 option for more power. i took it. since then I have just been changing it up. now its what it is and again. im just looking for some guidance.:noob:

your pressure regulator at idle should be reading 50psi because idle vaccuum is about 10psi below ambient.

but I guess you know better since you troubleshoot cars for a living :|

Just to add to the conversation - My NB hit 445whp on E85 before taking out the trans on the dyno, I'm using the latest DW1300's with a base fuel pressure of 47psi and if I recall I have plenty of DC to go. Usually I won't go past 85% DC without telling someone to buy bigger injectors so I wouldn't do it on my own car..

At 500 crank on a turbo e85 car, 1000cc injectors should be around 85% DC with a base fuel pressure of 44psi.. So 1300's should give you PLENTY of room to be comfortable. I'm not sure why this is even a discussion. There are formulas to figure this out, I just use an old spreadsheet and punch the values in. Granted there are other variables but it's certainly enough to help you confidently purchase a set of injectors.

Also - the car idles like it's stock.

My FPB has a PSI Gauge. Set screw is turned in so at idle PSI its set at 62.
referance port has its own referance from the intake.

Ok so you're running more like ~72psi base fuel pressure.

Yeah. There's no way in hell you should be maxing out those injectors. Definitely suggest you figure that out before you max out 2000cc injectors trying to make 500hp.

Which is wrong, it should be 50 psi at idle (if you want to run 60 differential pressure) and sharing the reference line with the MAP sensor :jerkit:

This is the last piece of advice that I'll give you - you are too stubborn and its like talking to wall.

You're still on DW300 pump? Or something else?

Respectfully, there's no way you're making 400whp at 19psi through a '95 head. I can explain why I know that if you're interested, or you can take my word for it. On a '95 head, E85, and a soft timing map, I'd estimate your current power to be somewhere around 350-370whp.

If you're seeing 62psi at idle, the FPR is seeing vacuum from the intake and reducing fuel pressure. You're probably somewhere around 70psi with the key off, which is what we refer to as "base" pressure.

As Concealer said, there's no way you're maxing your ID1000s at your current power/boost levels and your current fuel pressure. Absolutely no way.

Im sorry you feel this way. im not trying to. 60 psi at idle is the recommended pressure for the FPR for the FM flex fuel system. its in the directions. THat is why it is set there.

its on the dw300 pump which is included in the kit.

when i get home after work im going to double check some things. however, im pretty sure I dont have a problem with the fuel system.

You're going to want to read FM's instructions again. They do not specify 60psi at idle at any point in the instructions, especially if you're referencing vacuum/boost to use the regulator as a 1:1 unit.

I think you are running out of fuel pump. And it may just be an amperage issue, which is an easy fix.

One of the local dyno operators said his most common problems on customers' cars was inadequate fueling. The most common problem was not a big enough pump.

The second most common fuel problem was a big enough pump but stock wiring and relay that isn't able to keep up with the electrical demand when the pump gets worked to the max. Many aftermarket fuel pumps are serious amperage hogs. The wiring, grounding, and the relay often needs to be upgraded to a higher amperage capable unit.