All out street build
 

I've saved up a little bit of money and want to start putting together the parts for my new motor. I have an 03 w/ a Hydra, WI, BEGI S5, GT3071 w/ 750CC injectors. I'd like to go "all out" for a daily driver street build and want to max out my 3071. Hopefully I can get near 450whp with WI and rev to 8500RPM. My current 250whp really isn't fast enough for me and I don't like losing on the highway (lots of fast cars around here).

I think I have the general idea of what the parts list would be but I really need some feedback. I'm new to cars and still don't understand a lot about engines. I'm not going to be doing the assembly myself since I halfass (v) meticulous work and am sloppy. I'm the type of guy who would do something like that hideous eclipse build that was floating around the net.

Here's the partial list for the build and my thoughts. Let me know what you think. I have done research but there's a lot of discussion on this stuff without consensus sometimes.

9:1 pistons - brand undetermined, .2 or .4 overbore?
Piston clearance - I've read a lot of discussion about this with no conesensus
Piston coatings - not sure if this is worth it
H beam rods - brand undetermined
Rings - brand / type undetermined
ARP studs
Billet Oil Pump Gears
Harmonic Damper
Valve spring kit - I'm not sure which valve kit to get

Anything I'm missing other than seals?

I think your missing a little reality. No offense, seriously. The thing is, try driving a miata with half that power goal of yours. Our cars weigh njust about nothing so it doesnt really take all that much to beat "fast" cars.
To put it into perspective, a 220 rwhp miata can easily beat a C5 vette if you drive well.

250 rwhp, and seriously, not much will be able to hang with you on the street.

Now your list, the stock motor on a 89-97 is 9:1 and plenty strong enough to with stand 240-50 rwhp. With a good tune, the motor can hold out for about 50hp more however thats when you have to start thing about your tranny as it can easily go kaboom with 240rwhp.

For extra insurance, i would go with forged rods and pistons. That is IF you would still be willing to cross the 300rwhp mark. No need for piston coatings. Yes it helps but its not a need.
No need for the harmonic damper either. Over the 300hp mark, youll want to look into possibly getting a better oil pump.
No need for the valve spring kit either. I have titanium valve springs in my car and its cool but not nessecary. Sooooooooo ill let some one else chime in now.

Based on his sig, he's probably already at 230-250.

fae, do you have a dyno of your current setup? I'm dying to see the torque curve of a GT3071R at 12psi on a 1.8 Miata.

Sounds like you have the right idea on parts. (I am working off the exact same list LOL)

I chose to go cheap on the hardware:
Supertech forged pistons (came with Nippon Piston Rings)
CAT rods
Boundry Engineering billet oil pump gears (from MT.net group buy)

It will be a while before I am built... have to go turbo first :)

Sounds like you have more money to spend than I do. I think you should be looking at Weisco Pistons (max overbore) and rings. Follow FMs recommended clearance specs, they will share them over the phone and have posted them at miata.net before. Supertech seems to be the standard bearer in valvetrain components. Coatings only if you are trying to wring out every last ounce from your engine and wallet.

Woops-- thought I included current horsepower in first post. It's in there now.

I did get dyno'd. I hit 257 on a Dyno Dynamics and 10psi before any spark tuning. The scale of the graph was wacked out though and I only had a paper readout. FWIW Ed @ York Automotive in Mt. Airy Maryland is very helpful and on the up-and-up with his dyno time. He's a very nice guy and a very experienced racer.

Yes, 250whp isn't fast enough. I'd like to be able to beat 600cc bikes and pace liter bikes. Last night I lost to a GTO with headers and exhaust. He started to walk away around 110. I've also lost to a WRX mods unknown. My car is about as fast as the last generation of M3s. There's also a decent amount of Z06's, new M3s, EVOs blah blah in the area and my little miata deserves more power. It's not fast enough.

I don't know what the torque curve is but my graph looked pretty similar to T3/T4 charts. I hit 12psi at about 4000 depending on the temperature outside. This is with a 9psi WG spring (external Tial). When I had the 15psi spring in there I was hitting 15psi at about 3600RPM. I also have a 3" catless exhaust for teh spoolage and deafness and respiratory illness :(.

BTW I want a higher RPM limit so I can get more out of my boost range and gears...

Highway racing = :td:

450whp will be MORE than plenty to roll 600s, not sure about those liter bikes..

wow i wasted all that time typing. Anyhoo, ill say it, the miata IMO is not a higway racer. Now my last FD, that was deffinately a higway racer. Sell the miata and get an FD :)

Grrr I do more with it than highway racing. Stuff like driving to work, getting groceries, carting myself to krav maga... No more discouragement please!

some 3.63 to 1 or lower gears might be to your likeing, would give you more top end for the highway.

Over 300whp Upgradeing the Pistons and Rods are recommended. Valvetrain upgrades are good also, but not nessessary unless bigger cams or valve floating is becoming an issue (i.e. bigger cam and/or higher then recommended RPM). There is no sense in uping the RPM limit as no power will be found there on stock cams. More bad then good can come from doing that. Lastly more boost and a good tune = more power till the turbo is maxed out.
Side note: Try lighter wheel and tire combo = more WHP. I went from 17x7 TSW wheels to 15x8 6UL on NT01 and gained 13 whp on the dyno, plus lost 28 pounds (7lb at each wheel) of dead weight which Changed the whole feeling of the car.

^+6325!
At 250whp, 1st gear on a 5spd, even with a 4.1 is pretty much just good for making black dust... at 450whp, you're gonna be hard pressed to get traction through 3rd without some gearing help. You DO want the gear ratio's of the 5-spd to match up with your 6.36, but you're gonna blow a stock 5-spd the first time you slam a 2-3 shift at 450whp. I recommend consideration of the Quaife gearset, which I've heard is between the 5 and 6 speed ratios... but you'll need to practically double your budget.

out of curiosity why 750cc inj and only making 250whp?

My only suggestion would be to tell anyone who wants to talk you out of the 450 rwhp goal to go back to miata.net.

excuse me, I'd like to give you a list of things you don't know...

You do know how fast they are right? You need a 10 second car to keep up with the 600s and a 9 second car to keep up with the liter bikes, in stock form. Slammed with a few mods gets them into the 8 second range. Top speed is also a challenge.

It can be done, like anything can be done, but I'll bet it will be expensive if you want it to be reliable. Its not just the motor, but the whole power train, suspension, and tires. At any rate, 450 HP will be pretty nuts :bigtu:

Bikes FTW

just sell the Miata and buy this eBay Motors: 2005 Carbon Fiber Turbocharged Lotus Elise 275 + HP (item 330283958227 end time Nov-11-08 16:02:18 PST)

Cus I planned for the future ;)

Well, when you figure out that 750cc's wont get you to 450whp, I'll take the 750's. :)

Buy the cheap forged pistons/ cheap forged rods, OP gears if you must, studs aren't needed anywhere. I suggest lower comp for a big boost engine, but others will argue. coatings don't do shit.

Yes, bikes are very very fast and I want my car to be very very fast too.

Regarding driveline I have a stock 6 speed and 3.9 LSD. It should be ok for a bit. My car's already rolling on 6ULs.

Anyone got any advice on particular parts?

The line forms here

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I would think it would get you close? 500cc gets you three hundred. It should get 400 anyway. That will fry your hair in a miata.

So I threw out some drag race numbers for bikes but of course it is a bigger world than just that. I'm curious, what kinds of lap times do radically race prepared Miatas run at Motorsports Ranch Cresson and Texas World Speedway? I dug around a bit and could not find anything.

We have a couple of psychotically fast guys that race bikes in the CMRA that are capable of extracting about all there is out of a liter bike.
For MSRC on the 1.7 mile course the CMRA lap record is a 1:13.8
For TWS on the 2.9 mile course the CMRA lap record is a 1:41.7

Here's a different idea. Swap in a SuperCharged LS7 @ 8 psi with a T56 trans, plus all the other bits and pieces to make it work in your miata. 575+ whp, reliable boosted miata that can run with almost anything on the streets (including most of them bikes). This may be the cheapest route in the long run. Gonna be a bit unstable at 160mph+ but who cares :) you will be the fastest miata out there.

buy this and throw 30psi at it?

http://hudsonvalley.craigslist.org/pts/930559833.html

edit: just saw you have an 03 so that probably won't work for you

hmm, actually, why wouldn't it?

I'm doing an "all out" street build....I don't expect turbo hayabusa's to keep up with me, at any point.

Yes you are, Mike, and you need to post pics.

The greatest part of the project is the anticipation:giggle:.

Not sure. For some reason I was thinking you had a duratec or something other than a BP in 03.

Negative. They didn't change to the duratec or w/e block until 06.

I can has please?

we really need a newbie playpen!!

Yeah tell me about it! :)

I mostly lurk. I joined for the tech and I havn't really posted much since I don't have much to add to Miata specific discussion. I don't even own a miata but I do have a turbo BP powered vehicle. I figured I could stick my head out here a bit and offer my engine to the OP... But you're right, I'm still a Miata noob. :noob:

Not to rain a any parades but most people who own a high strung, high hp turbo 4 banger that was intended for the street end up being disappointed in the end result. Driveability issues, cold start problems, turd spool, etc. BTDT. And then there's living in MD and having to deal with emissions unless you have a hookup, loophole, or don't mind uninstalling everything and re-installing it for a 10 minute test.

I'm certainly not trying to discourage you. Just take a step back and realize what you'll have with your car at 400+ whp and what trade-offs/sacrifices you'll have to make to get there. Then decide if it's worth it before you jump in head first.

Frank

Do you have a 400whp+ miata?

I had no driveability problems and no starting problems. That's the great thing about turbo cars, you can't have big hp with good driveability.

It would spool at 4000 rpms, so call that bad if you will...but it is all in driving style at that point.

No need to have a 400whp turbo Miata. I had one at 280whp 10 years ago and realized the law of diminishing returns in making higher hp with any turbo 4 banger after I owned 3 DSMs (at between 300-350 whp mark), a RX-7 TII (at around 320), and a Suby Forester XT (at 415 whp).

Do you have a 400+whp Miata? I've heard you quote numbers, but have yet to see a dyno sheet. That and your posts indicate you're making wastegate pressure, 12 psi, at 4100 rpm. Is your 400+ on pump gas? Meth? So full boost is at what, 5K rpm?

So how many miles have you put on it? How long have you driven it on the street? How is it at sub 45 degrees (non-Houston weather)?

I'm sure you have quite a bit of experience at what, 21-22 years old. You love the one car you've dumped a lot of money in and modified, but you also won't admit that there are issues and problems with a high strung, high hp car on the street. And please don't tell me there are no issues. You've posted on m.net about tuning issues with the CAS. Sure it's minor, but 10 minor issues add up to a big pain in the ass.

I'm not gonna jump on you any more but the ratio of failed high hp street projects to well sorted out successful street projects is about 1000:1.

Frank

Mike made more than 400whp for a while. He has dyno videos. Pump gas IIRC. His 02 doesn't have a CAS. I think you're confusing him with someone else. And lets just say when it comes to all out built high HP miatas, he's probably ahead of you. :)

seriously, had to change my pants. going to a dyno with a fellow local autox'er with his elise turned into an exige and i'll be very jealous since itll be pre-boost and i know i have no power right now :(



but this thread= :drama:

I just saw the videos so I'll retract the statement regarding if he did it or not. I'll stand by the statement that 400+ on a dyno doesn't mean shit for a street car. I've seen 100s of dynos of cars making big power the sucked as daily drivers on the street and I'll stand by that statement.

My '01 had a CAS so what's your point?

MX-5 Miata Forum - View Single Post - Engine/Tuning Problem

I don't need to build an all out high HP Miata. Having one that's streetable, or remotely reliable as a daily driver is futile. That's why I chose the LS6 swap. Factory power from a car that makes 375 without a sweat for 100k miles was a better solution. If I want 450, I'll throw in a cam, tune and upgraded valve springs.

So how many 400+ whp 4 banger Miatas are out there? You can probably count them on two hands. Now tell me if ANY of them have 10k street miles at over 400 whp.

And if that's on pump gas, it's on 100% meth too. I'll guarantee he's not making 475 on good ol Texas 93-4.

Frank

Damn Frank way to crush my dream. Yes, I want to DD this car because I love driving it through the rain in rush hour traffic, parking it on the streets in DC etc. I'm hoping that it will survive happily at 19psi WG spring and then when someone needs a spanking or the roads are nice and clear I can switch on EBC. Your swap is very cool but I'm already pretty committed to my BP.



--- back to my topic--

On ETD's website it says that someone has made 600whp with their rods. Anyone know who that someone is?

Well, starting in 99 all miatas from the factory no longer used a CAS. If you added one, fine. But it's not factory on 99+. There's a block off plate that is pressed into the rear of the cylinder head that can easily be removed to use one. My point was you say Mike had tuning issues with a part that didn't come on his car, therefore, perhaps you are confusing him with someone else.

Your opinion on what is streetable is just that. An opinion. Not fact. Some people are smart and can build a nice setup that has manners. And tune engines to run well under a variety of conditions. Sure, we've all seen pile-of-shit builds. But they are what you make them. It's not impossible to build a 400whp that's streetable. But it does requires a vast amount of knowledge and skill to achieve a reliable vehicle.

EDIT: Just clicked that link. I will assume both of you are refering to the cam position sensor.

Who knows. They're CAT rods. You could ask marc, but he doesn't know his product too well based on the questions I've asked him about his rods. I got better answers from other websites, so when I buy a set, I'll get them elsewhere. You can get them cheaper just about anywhere but ETD. Go to ETD's website and the CAT part number is in the title of the item. Odds are they're fine for that much power. But hardly anyone ever pushes parts like this from making big power.

Dude, you're a ------. You have absolutely NO clue what you are talking about. So you found one problem that I had with my car...SO WHAT. Problems are GOING to happen when you go to a standalone.

You must not be smart enough to fix problems very well. That, or you must have a shop do everything for you if you expect to have any respectable amount of power with ZERO problems right off the bat.

Talk all you want about putting a LS6 in your car...you're still going to be slow.

Once again, you are a ------.

Sorry FaeFlora for trashing your thread. I didn't realize this douche would respond like that.

someone break out the oil and bikinis, ders bout to be da bess chick wraslin eva.

On ETD's website it says that someone has made 600whp with their rods. Anyone know who that someone is?[/QUOTE]

I did a little bit of research on this and came up blank. I have Belfabs in my engine and they have the same claim (same rods?).

BELFAB RACING PRODUCTS

I think that's just a general statement for their H-beam rod design in a 4cyl application. I'm sure there more than a handfull of honda/mitsu guys who are putting down those numbers with Belfab rods.

"600+hp" toyota rods:
BELFAB RACING PRODUCTS

Interesting Thread....

Has anyone mentioned FE-DOHC swap.. *cough... Cough*...
No? Oh... Ok...

Anyway, Personally, My build is calling for head work as well. Someone mentioned the "Law of Diminishing Returns" and I think you could pull that out here, but hear me out. We all know, of course, that the head is where all the magic happens, and sure the 99' or MSM head's flow very nicely as they are, but when you gain 20-40cfm worth of flow from a great port job, and add in the fact you'll be running even more boots than most run... well, I could see a bit of power being opened up for you there.

Keep in mind that all the guys who eat-breathe-live-shit-and blow up Miata every day know more than me, as I do not, exactly, and most will of course chime in and tell you/me/the world that the Head already has large ports, almost too large in some cases, and material should be added in some areas.. that is all from those who I've asked correct, but again, that is the assumption of a good port job, vice Joe Bob the guy who has been hackin aluminum heads to death with a dremel in his garage for the last 2.3 years....

Anyway, I guess, I'd like to suggest looking at port work? Its another $1500 to add to the budget though, but it may mean you can run less overall boost/octane and make more power.

Not that anyone didn't know any of that, but it's just another thought to mull over.

Look at the date on the post before yours newb lol, this thread is dead and cold by now.

Well since someone dug this up I may as well write that I'm already on my way. I bought a motor with supertech pistons, rods, billet pump gears and a head with a FM p&p, valves. Whenever I can take my motor to the shop, valve springs, ati dampener, will be installed as well. I can't really find any sort of consensus online about ring clearances so I suppose I'll just go with whatever supertech and the machinist agree on. Engine removal and installation will be a big project for me and I'm trying to recruit some experienced friends for the job.

I finally decided on an engine builder as well---

Ed York @ York automotive is doing the disassembly/assembly and marks machine in westminster will do the machine work. As I wrote in some other threads, Ed dynod my car before and was very helpful in pinpointing some problems that showed on the dyno. He's an experienced racer and mechanic as well, and also races spec miata among other classes. It's been a real pain to find an engine shop. Most of the ones I've spoken with are very surly, unhelpful, and very expensive. I'm a noob so the helpful knowledge sharing attitude is much appreciated. His prices are also good.

link to york automotive on google maps

Well I found my thread while doing a search for something else so I figure I may as well update it.

The motor is done. The block I bought was trashed and most everything was worthless. If anyone has questions about what was wrong with it they can PM me. No component failures were due to manufacturing, just abhorrent tuning.

That pile of fuckup set me back for a little while. Nyways Ed @ York did indeed build the motor as planned. He turned it around in about 2 weeks eliminating the time he was waiting for me to send him replacements for the junk parts.

Engine has:

belfab rods
FM weiscos
billet OPG
ARP bolts and studs
FM p&p VVT head w/ FM springs, upgraded valves
stock block and head deck height :)


I'm picking it up next week and will start the install then.

Gonna do a bunch of things while the motor is out

- swap the act organic disc for an ACT 6 puck
- may be swapping the 6 speed for a mazdaspeed since it's supposedly stronger and 6th gear is a little longer (if the deal goes through)
- swapping the torson for a diff w/ a rx7 clutch type and cryo/rem treated 3.6 r&p (if paul ever responds and lets us know if the 626 r&p actually does work aok)
- mazdaspeed diff mounts
- hydramist install
- windshield washer bottle :) since the stock once couldn't fit anywhere after my install :(
- turbosmart MBC (gonna figger out how to run it in parallel or serial with EBC.. might end up using it on the wastegate signal if I can comprehend how that could help spool and it actually helps)
- real roll bar
- new hydra wideband sensor
- gotta fix a stupid PPT frame mounting hole that stripped ugh
- frame rails since mine are starting to look horrible
- new vacuum lines and hoses and maybe a little wire cleanup everywhere and engine bay cleanup
- begi coolant reroute redo

That will be a lot of work and I've never pulled an engine before so this should be interesting.

After the install I was planning on getting it properly tuned by Phil @ Element tuning in gaithersburg md. He's the guy who actually designed the hydramist so I figure he can do it.

Lastly, I finally have a digital camera that doesn't suck so I'll start a real genuine build thread soon yay :)

You'll be very happy with Phil tuning your car. Since it's been awhile since this thread was started, what's your current goal for the car?

Im wondering why brake upgrades are not on that list. I would think you would need some bigger rotors with some wilwoods for the added stopping power. We do need some pics so post them please! ;)

Still running the S5 mani?

Seems like a nice build, good luck with it! You should also go to the dyno day in DE in a few weeks to show off the car.

Jay I guess you have experience with Phil? Did he help you with any tuning before?

As for my power goals, my plans are-

"Stage 1" - see how much power I can get on the stock coils. Jay set an inspiring benchmark and I'm curious how close I can come to his numbers even though my manifolds don't flow as well. I do have a better flowing head (as compared his to when he dyno'd) so maybe that will balance things out a bit. I'll run pure water, no meth to KISS. So the stage 1 goal is around 400hp.

"Stage 2" - I was thinking about going to the MSD coils while everything is out but I think it would be best if I first tune on stock coils and get the engine running ok and tuned broken in first. So Stage 2 will be the MSDs, injectors if necessary and/OR running up to 50/50 water/meth to get some more power, and maybe an intake manifold if a good one comes to market. Tim- got any 1.8 designs :)? Stage 2 goals will be to get as much power out of the GT3071 as possible.

"Stage 3"- ????? profit?

I do plan to be there at the DE dyno day. If the car isn't ready I'll bring up my dad's 1983 turbo diesel station wagon and we can dyno that :>

He was out here in the Seattle area to tune a bunch of Subaru's. The dyno he rented is at Pina Motorsports where I spend a lot of time. Had a chance to talk with him very briefly, but the results from the cars spoke for themselves. As for him tuning my car, it hasn't happened and probably won't because Andre at Pina Motorsports still takes care of all the tuning.

I'd be curious to see how much power you can get out of the stock coils. I'm pretty sure that I can get over 500 out of my stock setup without issues, the 01+ cars aren't as bad as people make them out to be.

It's a street build. The stockers are fine since he's not overheating them. On most public roads the tires are going to lose traction before the brakes can't lock the rotors. Not sure if he has ABS or not.

Not sure why you wouldn't want to run 50/50 meth. Getting a bottle of distilled for 95 cents and dumping half the water out and filling it with meth or denatured alcohol is about as simple as it gets. I'm sure Phil will recommend the same. I'm not sure what Miata guys fascination is with NOT running the extra octane afforded by going 50/50.

Frank

Yes, I don't plan to be doing tracking so the stock brakes will work aok. I do have ABS. I was considering upgrading the radiator but I think I'll stay stock for the same reason unless an unignorable used deal comes up.

Regarding meth, my main concern is my BOV. I have a Tial so it's VTA and FM's installation instructions said 50/50 will still burn. I've read other contradictions on the net but I'm also wondering about whether my engine might be affected by methanol mist. If this is something I don't need to worry about please explain.

I would mostly like to run washer fluid since it's convenient and premixed but I need to research whether or not peoples fears of "gumminess" are warranted.

The gear ratios are the same. Don't swap based on that. ;)

I am excited to see what you think about your 1.9L 3071 combo. I'm planning on the same combo, but with my S4 manifold.