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Old 10-06-2013, 11:10 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by itskrees View Post
Hard part is, the crossover tube isnt metal so im not sure how to go about drilling and welding a bung for it.
When I ran NA with my MS back in 2007 I simply drilled a slightly smaller hole then the sensor in the stock tube. I threaded the sensor in as best I could. It worked fine for the 6 months I ran it.

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Originally Posted by NiklasFalk View Post
There is no problem with using the stock AIT in any tube available (at zero boost of course). Just drill hole and use the grommet from the stock airbox.
Disregard the fact that my example was a quick hack to be able to race, it's not a tuned length at all, especially not for stock cams.
He has a 97 which has the AIT built into the MAF. He is going to use the GM AIT. Otherwise that is a perfectly fine way to do it on a NB.
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Old 10-07-2013, 10:43 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by codrus View Post
It makes more power because it allows more timing and because it has a higher ratio of hydrogen to carbon than gasoline does. The oxygen in E85 is already bonded to a C and an H, it's already "burned" and is just along for the ride.

--Ian
False. Even though the oxygen in Ethanol is already bonded, its still used in the burn.

Ethanol burn formula:
C2H6O + 3O2 -> 2CO2 + 3H2O

Gasoline burn formula:
2C8H18 + 25O2 -> 16CO2 + 18H2O

Notice how the end product is the same - CO2 and H2O and Gasoline doesn't have any oxygen molecules.
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Old 10-07-2013, 10:50 AM   #23
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Place the iat anywhere that will put it in direct airflow of the intake charge. Doesn't matter where on the tube, though if its directly behind the radiators it might have a wee bit of heatsoak if you sit in traffic or idling too long.

I've done what Lars did and drilled the tube and just threaded it in before, didn't have issues. Since your intake has a port in it that should work if it fits. Wost case you can just stick it in the filter lol

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Originally Posted by NiklasFalk View Post
That would lower the value of the squaretops for N/A use, "JDM YO" factor you mean? Haven't there been dyno plots showing the squaretop as top dog up high (quite some time ago)?
Pretty sure he's talking about motor and not mani
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Old 10-07-2013, 07:11 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soviet View Post
False. Even though the oxygen in Ethanol is already bonded, its still used in the burn.
Sure, but it's a net zero as far as energy is concerned. Chemical reactions release energy by breaking certain types of bonds and making other types of bonds. Oxygen is fairly high on the electronegativity scale, and there's lots of energy to be had by breaking O-O bonds and using those electrons to make C-O or O-H bonds. The O in ethanol doesn't add energy to the reaction any more than doing CO2 injection into the intake manifold would.

(Yes, H2O injection adds power, but it's not by giving you more oxygen to burn, it's by increasing effective octane and reducing the intake charge temperature)

--Ian
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Old 10-08-2013, 11:53 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by itskrees View Post
whats the rough whp estimate you guys think this setup could hit with a dyno tune?
Maximum of 130 rwhp on a Dynojet

What do I win if I come the closest?
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Old 10-08-2013, 12:51 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 18psi View Post

Pretty sure he's talking about motor and not mani
+1. BP4Ws make slightly more peak power at high RPM because they have more intake cam curtain area. VVT cams are very pointy.
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Old 10-15-2013, 02:00 PM   #27
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I swapped out the stock engine out of my 97 for a 2003 NB2 engine last winter. With the NB2 engine, I added a RB header, full exhaust from Enthuza, gutted VTCS intake manifold, MS3X, and modified AEM intake. I also swapped in a 6spd transmission with lightweight flywheel and clutch kit from FM.

I am still working on the tune, but the overall results have been great so far. A 40whp jump when you start with 100whp transforms the car. It was definitely a worthwhile effort. The 97 is now a blast to drive with the new engine and supporting bolt on mods.


FYI... I placed the IAT sensor in the end of the air filter:

Grind down the rubber a bit to reduce the thickness
Drill a hole matching the OD of the threads on the IAT sensor
Cut a brass fitting down to make a NTP threaded nut
Insert IAT through end of the filter and use NTP nut to secure from the inside (don't line the nut being inside the intake tract, but with pipe threads I don't see it coming loose)

(The IAT approach only works if you have an open element air filter, but thought this might be useful information for someone.)
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Old 10-18-2013, 09:31 PM   #28
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Good to know! Can't wait to get this thing in there. With the shape of the monsterflow intake filter, I'm not sure I'd be able to tap it in at the end, I may just tap into one of the openings along the crossover pipe.

With most of the parts added on to increase top end power (4-1 header, MSM cam, squaretop, intake), would there be any benefit to raise the stock redline to around 7500-8000? Would it even be safe at those rpms with the stock 99 motor?

What about a billet oil pump? Necessary for this application?


Quote:
Originally Posted by noname4me View Post
I swapped out the stock engine out of my 97 for a 2003 NB2 engine last winter. With the NB2 engine, I added a RB header, full exhaust from Enthuza, gutted VTCS intake manifold, MS3X, and modified AEM intake. I also swapped in a 6spd transmission with lightweight flywheel and clutch kit from FM.

I am still working on the tune, but the overall results have been great so far. A 40whp jump when you start with 100whp transforms the car. It was definitely a worthwhile effort. The 97 is now a blast to drive with the new engine and supporting bolt on mods.


FYI... I placed the IAT sensor in the end of the air filter:

Grind down the rubber a bit to reduce the thickness
Drill a hole matching the OD of the threads on the IAT sensor
Cut a brass fitting down to make a NTP threaded nut
Insert IAT through end of the filter and use NTP nut to secure from the inside (don't line the nut being inside the intake tract, but with pipe threads I don't see it coming loose)

(The IAT approach only works if you have an open element air filter, but thought this might be useful information for someone.)
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Old 10-18-2013, 10:15 PM   #29
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Stock head ? If the answer is yet, NO don't do it, 7400 RPM is enough and too much maybe.

Get valve springs at least, supertech are cheap and a good protection for overrev. Cheap insurance
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Old 10-18-2013, 10:32 PM   #30
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to rev past 7k consistently on the bp on track you're gonna need to start upgrading quite a bit of parts that will vibrate apart and/or break
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Old 04-30-2014, 05:59 PM   #31
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Hey everyone, just got tuned yesterday and wanted to give a quick update. The car was tuned on a Dynojet by a very highly regarded tuner in our area. He really tried to squeeze very last bit of power out of the setup, and we ended up with 130whp/115wtq:



The final modlist is as follows:
-99-00 NB motor, 47k miles, 180 psi dry across all four cylinders
-EUDM squaretop intake manifold
-MSM BP5A camshaft
-K&N 69-6000TP Intake
-Racing Beat header, wrapped
-RS*R Exmag GTII catback exhaust
-Exedy Stage 1 - 1.6 clutch
-XTD Prolite 9.5lb 1.6 flywheel
-MSPNP v1.1
-MAF delete, IAT sensor
-Hondata Intake Manifold Gasket
-93 octane

I'm very happy and instantly felt the difference in power. Car revs smooth and extremely quickly when paired with the 4:3 ring gear. With that said, there's something inside me that still wishes I was able to hit 140whp, especially since at this point, there's not much else I can do to net extra hp gains without taking apart the motor. For reference, he showed me some charts of spec miatas he's tuned and they were around 112-116whp on his dyno. Just curious if anyone might have an idea of what it could be missing, or is a dynojet just a low reading dyno? With such small power, 10whp is a pretty big difference.

ALSO - One issue we were having: is it normal for the idle on a 1st gen MSPNP to fluctuate a bit?

-With the lights off, the car idles around 1000-1200.
-When the lights turn on, the idle drops and begins to fluctuate from 700-1200, almost like the extra current draw brought the revs down to 700 and the engine is trying to compensate my quickly bringing it to 1200 before it drops again. At some points, the engine straight stalls.

He said its a minor issue that can easily be sorted out once I find a solution, and to possibly look into whether the MSPNP utilized an engine load control unit? He said it seems like it has to do with something like the MSPNP isn't signaling for the alternator to run harder to compensate for the increased load from turning on the headlights. Either way, even when setting base timing, we couldn't get the idle to remain completely steady at 850rpm, despite messing with the IAC screw and throttle cable.

Apologies for the long post. Thanks guys!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Double O 86 View Post
Maximum of 130 rwhp on a Dynojet

What do I win if I come the closest?
Lol crazy, you hit it right on the dot. Even the type of dyno! That's gotta deserve something.
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Ballpark Prediction - NB1 motor + bolt ons/ecu-krismiata_zps81a525dc.jpg  
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Old 04-30-2014, 06:08 PM   #32
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I'm guessing E85 isn't available? That might net you your 10 horses.
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Old 04-30-2014, 06:32 PM   #33
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E85 is available, but is not an option considering the car isn't properly setup for it. The values I was shooting for were based off Emilio's 95R' build, considering my bolt-on modlist is essentially identical:

https://www.miataturbo.net/general-m...project-63125/

Granted, he did have 10:5:1 pistons and a VVT NB2 motor, which likely attributed to his 145whp, but was only on 91 octane.
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Old 04-30-2014, 06:38 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Double O 86 View Post
Maximum of 130 rwhp on a Dynojet
0086 for the win.
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Old 04-30-2014, 07:19 PM   #35
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An extra full point of compression and VVT sound like ~15whp to me. 130 at the wheels N/A is very respectable.
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Old 04-30-2014, 09:13 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by itskrees View Post
ALSO - One issue we were having: is it normal for the idle on a 1st gen MSPNP to fluctuate a bit?
Are you using hi-res firmware on your ms1? It also sounds like you should just run a little higher idle, i usually aim for 950rpm hot, it's less likely to overload and fluctuate when you use your lights, etc.

Also, GREAT numbers imho. Congrats. Now tell us, how does it feel?
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Old 04-30-2014, 10:17 PM   #37
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Either the dyno reads very low or there is something else going on with the motor. I made 138 whp with a very similar set up on 91 octane without a square top and using a Jackson Racing header. If you swapped the newer motor into an older chassis you need to run the 94-97 alternator, I do not know those details of your set up though. Your power curve does not look like most of the square top manifold dyno's I've seen, you have a sharp drop off in the upper RPM. I run a VICS manifold and don't see a drop off that severe, here is an old chart from my motor for example;
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Old 04-30-2014, 10:17 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheScaryOne View Post
An extra full point of compression and VVT sound like ~15whp to me. 130 at the wheels N/A is very respectable.
A point and a half -- Emilio's car was 11.0:1, a stock NB1 motor is 9.5:1 (NB2 is 10.0:1).

There's probably also some power available in the Adaptronic vs the MS1. If it's a stock 4-tooth trigger wheel then the timing isn't going to be as precise as the 12-1 wheel that Emilio's thread says he used.

--Ian
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Old 04-30-2014, 10:23 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by codrus View Post
A point and a half -- Emilio's car was 11.0:1, a stock NB1 motor is 9.5:1 (NB2 is 10.0:1).

There's probably also some power available in the Adaptronic vs the MS1. If it's a stock 4-tooth trigger wheel then the timing isn't going to be as precise as the 12-1 wheel that Emilio's thread says he used.

--Ian
For more power; compression yes, adaptronic vs megasquirt no.
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Old 04-30-2014, 11:15 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by itskrees View Post
E85 is available, but is not an option considering the car isn't properly setup for it. The values I was shooting for were based off Emilio's 95R' build, considering my bolt-on modlist is essentially identical:
All you need is injectors and a tune. Nothing fancy.
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