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Old 08-19-2013, 10:46 PM   #21
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My BP6D head with valve cover, cams and full valvetrain is boxed and ready to ship, I kid you not. Maybe by the end of the year I might actually have the cash to make this happen.

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This CNC pattern is based on a port and chamber design Mike and I have been refining for the last two years over many motor builds.
Keegan I'm guessing? We communicated about 2 years ago about CNC, he said it wasn't quite there yet. I'm glad to see its been rolling along. Combustion chamber work as well? I'd love to see pics, but I'm not sure that's something you want out there on the 'net

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This is the digitized version of the port we won everything with in 2012.
Crusher tech FTW!


Any chance these can be optioned/customized? Single springs instead of dual, SS instead of inco on the exhaust, stuff like that.

Beautiful work Emilio, I'm glad to see this happening. I was seriously quoted $1800 in labor alone to do a stock rebuild locally and honestly I'd rather pony up and make this happen.
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Old 08-19-2013, 11:19 PM   #22
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Wow awesome value!
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Old 08-19-2013, 11:32 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by EO2K View Post
Any chance these can be optioned/customized? Single springs instead of dual, SS instead of inco on the exhaust, stuff like that.
Only one option reduces costs, thus the retail price. Thus, the exceptional value. Anyone that's paying for the ported head with oversize valves needs the double springs, even if they don't know it. Likewise the Inconel valves. We blow up engines racing to figure what lasts, makes power and what doesn't. You profit with bullet proof CNC heads for the little more than the price of a generic rebuild.

The primary goal of this project is to have them on the shelf and ready to ship at all times. That precludes custom variants.
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Old 08-20-2013, 06:29 AM   #24
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Do you need an Australian test rig to make sure they work just as well upside down? We may be able to come to an agreement!
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Old 08-20-2013, 01:52 PM   #25
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Thanks Emilio, that's pretty much what I had assumed. Less options means less inventory for you guys to deal with, less complexity makes it easier to manage.

Do these guys have a CMM built into their mill? I'm curious how they are dealing with core shift in the castings. I assume the castings are pretty consistent, but have there been any issues getting them cleaned up?

I ask because I spent several years standing next to a great big Mazak Horizontal. At one point, my shop foreman and I attempted to do something like this for smallblock Ford heads. The inconsistencies in the castings absolutely killed us, and I'm guessing the casting technology has improved in the last... decade.
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Old 08-20-2013, 01:56 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EO2K View Post
Thanks Emilio, that's pretty much what I had assumed. Less options means less inventory for you guys to deal with, less complexity makes it easier to manage.

Do these guys have a CMM built into their mill? I'm curious how they are dealing with core shift in the castings. I assume the castings are pretty consistent, but have there been any issues getting them cleaned up?
Yes there is specific core shift, it varies with the generation of casting. Our solution is proprietary. There are several interesting things we discovered, popular misconceptions and inaccurate "common knowledge" uncovered that allows us to make the heads better and more consistent. There is more than meets the eye. IOW, if someone merely digitizes our port trying to copy it, they might encounter some unexpected results

Expect most questions like "How do you make these?"
to be answered with "you betcha!"

Last edited by emilio700; 08-20-2013 at 02:25 PM.
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Old 08-20-2013, 02:53 PM   #27
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Hahaha! I figured as much. You guys have the benefit of what I assume is a decent sampling of castings. Can only get better over time, right? Having tried this, my interest is more academic than anything else.

Will flow numbers be forthcoming?
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Old 08-20-2013, 03:04 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EO2K View Post
Hahaha! I figured as much. You guys have the benefit of what I assume is a decent sampling of castings. Can only get better over time, right? Having tried this, my interest is more academic than anything else.

Will flow numbers be forthcoming?
Yup. Flow and controlled A/B testing with a stock head. It'll be a month or two before that's published.
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Old 08-20-2013, 07:18 PM   #29
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How the hell do you get a picture looking into the intake port so clearly.
My iphone skills cannot compete.

Seriously, though awesome work!
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Old 08-20-2013, 07:21 PM   #30
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I'm glad this is a couple months out when my spare engine will be back together and in the car already.

I've returned to this thread just to look at that pic like 10 times already
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Old 08-21-2013, 10:43 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EO2K View Post
Hahaha! I figured as much. You guys have the benefit of what I assume is a decent sampling of castings. Can only get better over time, right? Having tried this, my interest is more academic than anything else.

Will flow numbers be forthcoming?
No part probe? In this case your fixture would just be to get the head close enough and have the machine code setup for 1 port, it would probe the first port, machine it, move over the ~ distance between ports, then jump back to the beginning of the program, probe, machine, repeat. Though thats adding a bit of time to the cycle time, more data on the core shifts Would make it about 5 minutes faster per port.
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Old 08-21-2013, 01:22 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EO2K View Post
Hahaha! I figured as much. You guys have the benefit of what I assume is a decent sampling of castings. Can only get better over time, right? Having tried this, my interest is more academic than anything else.

Will flow numbers be forthcoming?
Had some discussion with Mike on flow numbers for my engine, he doesn't like making them public, so I wouldn't count on it.
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Old 08-21-2013, 01:35 PM   #33
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My flow numbers is public somewhere and should be beaten with a margin if it's "worth" anything.
But static flow numbers is only an indication. Actual VE on a running engine is worth much much more (velocity, matching cam/intake, ..., and power)

Nice work to make decent heads public and much less magic.

The truth that the BP (4W and especially the 6D) is a decent head that can be made to flow start to surface (it just needs to come from the "right people").
"It's no Honda", sure, but it's not a dog like the NA BP either .
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Old 08-21-2013, 07:35 PM   #34
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Why no cams to go along with the head? All of the porting data I have seen shows the greatest gains in the higher valve lift areas. Are you not running custom cams in Crusher? It seems like a waste to go with stock cams. Looks forward to seeing the stage 2 setup when it comes out.
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Old 08-21-2013, 10:41 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by k24madness View Post
Why no cams to go along with the head? All of the porting data I have seen shows the greatest gains in the higher valve lift areas. Are you not running custom cams in Crusher? It seems like a waste to go with stock cams. Looks forward to seeing the stage 2 setup when it comes out.
Stock cams make good power when everything else is optimized. More importantly, they have a very smooth powerband with excellent area under the curve at modest revs. To get significantly more power with the same area under the curve we have to go way bigger with cams and bump the power band up almost 2000rpm. That means shifting at 8000-8500rpm with a 5 speed. That does not make sense for a daily driver that expects the long block to last several years.

Optional cams will come later.
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Old 08-21-2013, 11:12 PM   #36
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Why not just go with more lift?

Dann
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Old 08-21-2013, 11:25 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by emilio700 View Post
Stock cams make good power when everything else is optimized. More importantly, they have a very smooth powerband with excellent area under the curve at modest revs. To get significantly more power with the same area under the curve we have to go way bigger with cams and bump the power band up almost 2000rpm. That means shifting at 8000-8500rpm with a 5 speed. That does not make sense for a daily driver that expects the long block to last several years.

Optional cams will come later.
Emilio if the cams have similar duration as stock but more lift you will gain torque within the same RPM range as stock. Every +10 degrees at .050 will however bump peak HP approx 500 RPM. I know of several higher lift cams (.400-.420) that are within 10 degrees of stock.

Look at this dyno of the BP5A cam change. BP5A/MSM Intake Cam Swap Dyno Results

The big gains under the curve (mid range) come from the additional lift (+.025) and curtain window area. Basic RPM range remains the same. On paper the cam is only +5 degrees more duration at .050 lift. However that does not tell the whole story. At .300 lift the BP5A has 16+ more degrees of duration. That extra duration at peak lift helps airflow when the piston is at maximum acceleration.

Look at the example of ported 99 head from solo miata. Flow at .400 lift on a ported head is where the biggest gains are. Why not have cams that will take advantage of that extra flow?

stock ported
lift cfm cfm
.100 81 83
.200 153 159
.300 195 208
.400 207 232

I applaud your efforts with the CNC design based on your race winning head but I feel you are leaving a lot of power (even within stock rev range) on the table by using factory cams. Feel free to ring me off line if you want to discuss cam resources.

Lastly I did not want to hijack your thread just want you to realize the most of your efforts.
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Old 08-21-2013, 11:47 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by k24madness View Post
Emilio if the cams have similar duration as stock but more lift you will gain torque within the same RPM range as stock. Every +10 degrees at .050 will however bump peak HP approx 500 RPM. I know of several higher lift cams (.400-.420) that are within 10 degrees of stock.

Look at this dyno of the BP5A cam change. BP5A/MSM Intake Cam Swap Dyno Results

The big gains under the curve (mid range) come from the additional lift (+.025) and curtain window area. Basic RPM range remains the same. On paper the cam is only +5 degrees more duration at .050 lift. However that does not tell the whole story. At .300 lift the BP5A has 16+ more degrees of duration. That extra duration at peak lift helps airflow when the piston is at maximum acceleration.

Look at the example of ported 99 head from solo miata. Flow at .400 lift on a ported head is where the biggest gains are. Why not have cams that will take advantage of that extra flow?

stock ported
lift cfm cfm
.100 81 83
.200 153 159
.300 195 208
.400 207 232

I applaud your efforts with the CNC design based on your race winning head but I feel you are leaving a lot of power (even within stock rev range) on the table by using factory cams. Feel free to ring me off line if you want to discuss cam resources.

Lastly I did not want to hijack your thread just want you to realize the most of your efforts.
None of this is news to me. More cam is more power. I get it.

What you are missing in my reply is:

1. Stock cams are plenty for many folks and are way cheaper than any other option.
2. We will offer cams later.

I am not arguing that cams are not worth doing. In any case, I am guessing that one of our CNC heads is not in your future plans so the discussion is academic, no?
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Old 08-22-2013, 12:03 AM   #39
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A VVT head is in my future. Whether it's your CNC version or hand ported is yet to be determined.
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Old 08-22-2013, 12:07 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by emilio700 View Post
None of this is news to me. More cam is more power. I get it.

What you are missing in my reply is:

1. Stock cams are plenty for many folks and are way cheaper than any other option.
The part I have a hard time understanding is why spend all the effort and money and not give it the icing on the cake. The performance gains per dollar spend are far greater with the performance cams than the other work you have done here.
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