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Old 08-22-2013, 12:08 AM   #41
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Only BP6D, not BP4W, correct?
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Old 08-22-2013, 01:47 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by k24madness View Post
The part I have a hard time understanding is why spend all the effort and money and not give it the icing on the cake. The performance gains per dollar spend are far greater with the performance cams than the other work you have done here.
We offer a CC head with stock cams because it works, and will absolutely be a better choice for many builders than a CNC head with big cams will be. For other customers willing to pay more, and with different needs, we'll offer a DIFFERENT CNC design with big cams.

You disagree/don't understand.

That is as clear as I can get without sharing proprietary info.

/
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Old 08-22-2013, 02:10 AM   #43
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This is the digitized version of the port we won everything with in 2012.
Didn't your winning motor have custom cams in 2012 along with this port work?
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Old 08-22-2013, 02:12 AM   #44
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Did your winning motor not have custom cams in 2012?
I'm going to pretend that you are not here now.
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Old 08-22-2013, 02:21 AM   #45
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I'm going to pretend that you are not here now.
LOL.. OK Emilio.

I have a valid POV that you fail to acknowledge. I forgot that this forum is not about sharing technical information for everyone. I will move on and let you continue with your marketing efforts and not blur the lines with facts.
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Old 08-22-2013, 10:21 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by k24madness View Post
LOL.. OK Emilio.

I have a valid POV that you fail to acknowledge. I forgot that this forum is not about sharing technical information for everyone. I will move on and let you continue with your marketing efforts and not blur the lines with facts.
That response means two things: "Yes and you cant have any because I like winning." or "Yes, but they're very illegal so I cant admit it."

This head is cool, I like the price. I agree, higher lift cams with stock duration would be pretty sweet. But I also think that off the shelf cams are stupid. The biggest gain in a cam for this would be making the ramp angles more aggressive, more aggressive ramp angles make more power everywhere, make the car idle better, but your limit of aggressiveness is based on how long you want the valves and valve seats to last. So someone like me where a 10 hour motor would last like 5 seasons, I would be ok with having to refresh the head every 4 years, but for emillio who'd have to change a 10 hour motor 3 times during a race, it wouldnt work out so well.
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Old 08-22-2013, 10:44 AM   #47
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Don't forget that the customer base for a 10 hour head is much smaller and you risk selling it to those who don't "understand" what 10 hours mean (and then bitch about it failing).
Much safer to stock heads making the most of OEM cams/valve size/lifters.

Unlimited custom is (and has always been) available, but then you need to manage the project yourself.
Too big cams will not play well with a plenum anyway...
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Old 08-22-2013, 10:48 AM   #48
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Maybe i haven't been following along with this thread good enough.

But where's the proof and data for this? Are we still waiting?
I read something about someones builder doesn't want to share information.
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Old 08-22-2013, 10:56 AM   #49
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I dont think we are getting any. Im just not happy about the seeming openness and then closed as soon as I mention cams.

Dann
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Old 08-22-2013, 11:45 AM   #50
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It is quite simple really. A ported head will make power everywhere in the power band, and you have the reliability and longevity that comes with running a stock camshaft.

Sure the motor will make much more power with the bigger cam, but that is an upgrade that can be done anytime when your budget allows and you hunger for more. It is kind of silly to do the opposite, changing the cam first and later doing port work. It is proper to do the cylinder head first.

Also, you should keep in mind that running a much bigger cam usually means that other areas of the powertrain will need to be addressed to take full advantage of the camshaft change. A good example would be gearing. When you think about it, having a ported head and continuing to run a small cam is not a bad idea after all, when you weigh the other costs associated with a higher rpm motor.
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Old 08-22-2013, 11:47 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by miata2fast View Post
It is quite simple really. A ported head will make power everywhere in the power band, and you have the reliability and longevity that comes with running a stock camshaft.

Sure the motor will make much more power with the bigger cam, but that is an upgrade that can be done anytime when your budget allows and you hunger for more. It is kind of silly to do the opposite, changing the cam first and later doing port work.

Also, you should keep in mind that running a much bigger cam usually means that other areas of the powertrain will need to be addressed to take full advantage of the camshaft change. A good example would be gearing. When you think about it, having a ported head and continuing to run a small cam is not a bad idea after all, when you weigh the other costs associated with a higher rpm motor.
Why do you need to change the gearing when the power band doesnt change? We're talking about a stock duration cam with more life and maybe more aggressive ramp angles, thats going to have the same powerhand as the stock cam but make more power, assuming your head flows well at the higher lifts.
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Old 08-22-2013, 11:52 AM   #52
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Quote:
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Why do you need to change the gearing when the power band doesnt change? We're talking about a stock duration cam with more life and maybe more aggressive ramp angles, thats going to have the same powerhand as the stock cam but make more power, assuming your head flows well at the higher lifts.
You maybe talking stockish duration, but I would not choose to do so. Also Emilo mentioned going to 7800 rpm. That is a powerband shift. I have mildly higher duration, and I will tell you that my powerband did shift some. It is something to take into consideration, and costs money and time.

Last edited by miata2fast; 08-22-2013 at 09:03 PM.
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Old 08-22-2013, 11:58 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by Leafy View Post
So someone like me where a 10 hour motor would last like 5 seasons, I would be ok with having to refresh the head every 4 years, but for emillio who'd have to change a 10 hour motor 3 times during a race, it wouldnt work out so well.
I suspect most, like myself, want the "100 hour motor" that is so often thrown around.

That's essentially 33-34 weekends for me of HPDE/TT, or 4-5 years worth. That would be an acceptable lifespan for me, and a 100 hour engine is what I see Emilio and Sav frequently talk about here.
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Old 08-22-2013, 12:25 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by emilio700 View Post
Yup. Flow and controlled A/B testing with a stock head. It'll be a month or two before that's published.
For people wondering when flow data will be here..
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Old 08-22-2013, 12:48 PM   #55
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Here, let me parse the thread down to a couple of bullet points for you people that cannot be bothered to re-read the first post or read the entirety of the thread (or even just the posts made by Emilio).

Quote:
Originally Posted by emilio700 View Post
We're about 6 weeks away from having these BP6D and BP4W heads OTS and ready to ship.

Big flow and power gains. How much? We'll post that when testing is complete. We are doing controlled A/B testing with a fresh OEM rebuild and our CNC head on an otherwise stock JDM NB2 longblock with I/H/E and ECU.

Target price is $2750 exchange with stock solid lifters.

By the end of the year we should have our proprietary cams available for a stage 2 head with some additional features for about $4000.

Long blocks might follow in 2014.
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Originally Posted by EO2K View Post
Will flow numbers be forthcoming?
Quote:
Originally Posted by emilio700 View Post
Yup. Flow and controlled A/B testing with a stock head. It'll be a month or two before that's published.
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Old 08-22-2013, 01:04 PM   #56
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The drift here is ridiculous.

Facts:

1. Customs cams make more power than stock cams.

2. Custom cams cost more.

3. Stock cams work just fine for many users.

4. We stated we would offer customs cams as an option in the OP


Am I missing something?
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Old 08-22-2013, 01:08 PM   #57
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yeah: the part where you give away all the info on these for free so that everyone here can replicate it and beat you on the track as well as put you out of business.




Seriously though: I think most here are actually secretly wishing this.
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Old 08-22-2013, 01:23 PM   #58
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No kidding. Between this and the 1.6 internals thread, it seems like MT decided today would be a good day to drop acid with their coffee.

Point me at another shop that is offering a developed OTS built head solution on exchange. DO IT!

/crickets

This head with stock cams is probably fine for 90% of us plebes. Hell, most of us will NEVER need it but will buy it anyway because its easy. We get the benefit of the development time Emilio & Co. have put into it and repeatability of the CNC process rather than trusting some jackhole with a die grinder hogging out ports. Other than the EP guys (who share NOTHING) who else is doing this kind of development work and making it available? The 10% who actually NEED more than this are the guys who actually have the budget for hand porting and flowbench work. This is obviously not for them. As a vendor, why lock yourself out of 90% of the market?

Last edited by EO2K; 08-22-2013 at 01:40 PM.
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Old 08-22-2013, 03:03 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by emilio700 View Post
Am I missing something?

Just start answering any future questions by quoting yourself from earlier posts.
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Old 08-22-2013, 03:59 PM   #60
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I always find it funny that on every car forum I'm on... people expect head work info to be given away for free. Sure I could see coming at a random person for more info and raw numbers/proof. But a vendor/racer/business and miata R&D shop? Why the hell would they give the info away? If you're smart enough to provide comment and suggestions... chances are you're smart enough to get a similar result yourself and you won't be a customer. If you are that smart and you're just lazy... stfu and get your wallet out.

I always find it ironic that the biggest **** talkers in threads like this... are the people that would pretty much never be customers of said product.
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