Block mods for 1k hp?
05-31-2021, 02:47 AM
#1
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Block mods for 1k hp?
What's everybody doing to the block to prep it for 1k hp?
Thx.
In all seriousness, I'm considering taking a shot at this because yolo. Looking for ideas for how to mod the block (the casting) to hold up to a new definition of ALL OF IT.
The engineer in me is overthinking some things already, but I bet I'm missing some things too that I'll need to address.
Thx.
In all seriousness, I'm considering taking a shot at this because yolo. Looking for ideas for how to mod the block (the casting) to hold up to a new definition of ALL OF IT.
The engineer in me is overthinking some things already, but I bet I'm missing some things too that I'll need to address.
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06-01-2021, 05:54 AM
#5
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We have a 4-cylinder Audi engine making well above 1200whp on a cemented and sleeved block, ~70psi on a 85mm turbo. External water pump to cool the cylinder head. Billet support plate for the main caps. That's about it.
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06-03-2021, 06:33 AM
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Easy to overthink and over engineer the wrong parts - you need to crack a few eggs to make an omelette.
Personally I would get the supporting mods - turbo system, fuel system, drivetrain and crack a few eggs and engineer out the failures through the process. Otherwise you risk throwing things like billet main caps etc. into something where there will be another failure that takes out your expensive parts. Makes for a bad time quickly.
Programme of going say 600, 800, 1000 with inspections inbetween might work better for you than going full banana out the gate. May also depend on your lifespan goals. Anything pushed at this level is most likely going to considerably increase the lifecycle replacement requirements.
Personally I would get the supporting mods - turbo system, fuel system, drivetrain and crack a few eggs and engineer out the failures through the process. Otherwise you risk throwing things like billet main caps etc. into something where there will be another failure that takes out your expensive parts. Makes for a bad time quickly.
Programme of going say 600, 800, 1000 with inspections inbetween might work better for you than going full banana out the gate. May also depend on your lifespan goals. Anything pushed at this level is most likely going to considerably increase the lifecycle replacement requirements.
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06-03-2021, 02:19 PM
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Jeez. Getting a billet stroker crank, custom rods and pistons to fit a sleeved block would probably help. Stroking it out to 2.0-2.1 L will reduce the cylinder pressure a bit vs staying with a 1.8L displacement. Going to likely need a nitrous setup to spool a turbo that big and some crazy trick head. The head is probably going to constantly lift off the block, so custom making the studs larger is going to probably be mandatory.
Probably needs a full on motorsports ECU with a custom manifold setup with with individual cylinder AFR (quad channel wideband O2), a huge central wastegate and a 4" exhaust, then fab it up to a big boy manual or go or a custom BMW-esque dual clutch auto....
Probably needs straight Methanol to live without melting the exhaust side of the cylinder head. That's something I don't know how to fix. These Mazda heads don't flow so great, even with crazy work done to them. At the end of the day...why? When in full power, the engine's life is going to be measured in second/minutes or number of passes at full send. Might be better to start off with K-series 4 cylinder or twin turbo a V6 like the LF4/LF3. At least there's more transmission options out of GM's part family if you go the V6 route.
Whole idea is insane if you want to use the 80s tractor motor these cars have.
Probably needs a full on motorsports ECU with a custom manifold setup with with individual cylinder AFR (quad channel wideband O2), a huge central wastegate and a 4" exhaust, then fab it up to a big boy manual or go or a custom BMW-esque dual clutch auto....
Probably needs straight Methanol to live without melting the exhaust side of the cylinder head. That's something I don't know how to fix. These Mazda heads don't flow so great, even with crazy work done to them. At the end of the day...why? When in full power, the engine's life is going to be measured in second/minutes or number of passes at full send. Might be better to start off with K-series 4 cylinder or twin turbo a V6 like the LF4/LF3. At least there's more transmission options out of GM's part family if you go the V6 route.
Whole idea is insane if you want to use the 80s tractor motor these cars have.
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06-03-2021, 05:17 PM
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Ummm, maybe you should read some of Pat's threads. He already made a custom auto transmission for his car and it is fast as ****. It already has an 8.8 rear end and tons of other cool stuff that he made himself. Pat is a beast! Well respected around here.
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06-05-2021, 07:03 PM
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Jeez. Getting a billet stroker crank, custom rods and pistons to fit a sleeved block would probably help. Stroking it out to 2.0-2.1 L will reduce the cylinder pressure a bit vs staying with a 1.8L displacement. Going to likely need a nitrous setup to spool a turbo that big and some crazy trick head. The head is probably going to constantly lift off the block, so custom making the studs larger is going to probably be mandatory.
Probably needs a full on motorsports ECU with a custom manifold setup with with individual cylinder AFR (quad channel wideband O2), a huge central wastegate and a 4" exhaust, then fab it up to a big boy manual or go or a custom BMW-esque dual clutch auto....
Probably needs straight Methanol to live without melting the exhaust side of the cylinder head. That's something I don't know how to fix. These Mazda heads don't flow so great, even with crazy work done to them. At the end of the day...why? When in full power, the engine's life is going to be measured in second/minutes or number of passes at full send. Might be better to start off with K-series 4 cylinder or twin turbo a V6 like the LF4/LF3. At least there's more transmission options out of GM's part family if you go the V6 route.
Whole idea is insane if you want to use the 80s tractor motor these cars have.
Probably needs a full on motorsports ECU with a custom manifold setup with with individual cylinder AFR (quad channel wideband O2), a huge central wastegate and a 4" exhaust, then fab it up to a big boy manual or go or a custom BMW-esque dual clutch auto....
Probably needs straight Methanol to live without melting the exhaust side of the cylinder head. That's something I don't know how to fix. These Mazda heads don't flow so great, even with crazy work done to them. At the end of the day...why? When in full power, the engine's life is going to be measured in second/minutes or number of passes at full send. Might be better to start off with K-series 4 cylinder or twin turbo a V6 like the LF4/LF3. At least there's more transmission options out of GM's part family if you go the V6 route.
Whole idea is insane if you want to use the 80s tractor motor these cars have.
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06-05-2021, 08:52 PM
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It seems dubious to me that these Mazda engines would be able to last a short track session or burnout competition with that much boost. Probably would hold out fine if the power is just in 10 second runs, at say a drag strip or in Mexico.
Only "reliable" 1000 HP small 4 cylinder engines I've seen in person have crazy setups. There's the one that I saw with the quad channel wideband, billet engine block, running like 50 PSI of boost...probably cost almost 6 figures, everything's bespoke in a block like that.
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06-06-2021, 02:42 AM
#15
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We've done multiple 1000hp 4 cylinder engines that run on a single wideband, no EGT, run on gasoline and not methanol or E85, on the factory block. 50psi is "low boost" by drag racing standards. We have actual street cars with heated leather seats and full interior trim that run 50psi on totally stock blocks with no mods other than pistons, rods, bolts.
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06-06-2021, 04:58 PM
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We've done multiple 1000hp 4 cylinder engines that run on a single wideband, no EGT, run on gasoline and not methanol or E85, on the factory block. 50psi is "low boost" by drag racing standards. We have actual street cars with heated leather seats and full interior trim that run 50psi on totally stock blocks with no mods other than pistons, rods, bolts.
I didn't know it was possible to have power density above 400 HP/L on pump gas, unless you treat the block as a consumable. How does that work? A ton of water injection and a world class tuner?
If you remember any particular builds of note I could look up and read into? If it is too much hassle, don't worry about it. I've probably derailed the thread enough.
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06-06-2021, 06:13 PM
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TLDR: Sleeves, o-ringed deck, bespoke head gasket, flat tops, proper quench, billet crank, main journals, main cap girdle, ALL the oil system mods, bespoke balancer, reverse cooling system, electric water pump, 3/4 block fill, heavy fuel.
If I was trying to make a BP make 1000 hp I'd start by talking with a sleeve provider.
I'd sonic test my block to see how big I could make the bore before hitting a water jacket as I believe the sleeve will be stronger if it is fully encapsulated by the base block material.
I'd choose a sleeve with an OD that would fit the above bore.
The sleeve maker should be able to spec out a thickness that your set up needs.
This will dictate the piston diameter. I would expect that this size will be smaller than the stock 83 mm.
I'd try to stay as close to 83 as I could as going much smaller will allow the combustion chamber diameter to overlap the bore.
I'd look into ringing the sleeves at the deck surface and using a custom head gasket (maybe annealed copper).
I'd aim for piston to head clearance between .040 and .045. I'd leave the quench pads in the cylinder head.
This will dictate the head gasket thickness. Most Miata performance pistons drop the "compression distance" too far down the bore which requires excessive decking OR making a custom rod.
A 134mm rod instead of a 133mm rod is nearly perfect for this application but I could not find a 134mm rod (any manufacture) that also had rod journal/pin bore close to the BP sizes.
The rod length might change if I was able to find one of the billet cranks that SuperMiata used to sell.
I'd try to find one of those for this engine as well.
A true custom piston with non-standard compression height could solve all the problems. It would not be cheap.
I'd make it out of 2618, have the top ring land hard anodized and the crowns ceramic coated.
I would add vertical gas porting if it was drag race only. I'd add a vacuum pump with the gas porting if I wasn't using a dry sump set up.
I'd use billet main caps and try to make a real main cap girdle (billet as well). The big problem here is no good meaty areas in the block casting to attach this critter on the perimeter. No good way to cross bolt it either...
I'd use flat top pistons (with valve reliefs). Flat tops usually have the best strength/weight ratio over dished or domed pistons.
I like the way Flying Miata's pistons handle the valve reliefs- little troughs instead of individual cut outs; looks strong and light. I don't like the dish and the resulting narrower quench areas that the dish produces
This engine would require a "tuned" balancer for high RPM. I personally like the "Fluid Damper" for almost all applications but it would not be my choice for this engine.
I'd do the BE pump gears (VVT) and their anti-cavitation plate on a new Mazda VVT pump housing. I'd shim the stock relief valve to 120 psi but control actual oil pressure with an external relief valve (better flow, less pump stress, and external pressure adjustability).
Madjak is my source here Oil Pressure Relief Valve Issue - Is There Any Fix? - Miata Turbo Forum - Boost cars, acquire cats.. I agree with his "fix" completely, Thanks Madjak!
I'd run an "accu-sump" as well. Having 15+ seconds of "extra" oil pressure can save your ***! Being able to pressurize the oil system BEFORE starting it is awesome as well.
A really good windage tray will be needed as the acceleration this should produce will pin ALL of the oil to the back of the motor.
A dry sump system might be called for in this application due to this phenomena.
The head bolts are a bit on the small size, going bigger is usually better but both the block and the cylinder head will need modification and far to many folks on here have cracked heads when using the "monster" studs that are currently available.
I especially agree with your initial upgrade to better (bigger face area) washers that you did years ago. A bigger contact area reduces loading (and should reduce the tendency to crack the head).
I think head lifting will be one of the "Achilles heels" of this engine.
I'd change up the cooling system as well. I'd reverse flow it with an electric water pump and most likely pump cooled water into BOTH the front and the back of the head.
This will allow a 3/4 filled block (above the freeze plugs) with concrete/epoxy.
The stock location/mounting of the water pump limits you to either less than 1/4 fill OR you might fill it at an angle with the back of the engine getting a 3/4 fill and the front of the engine getting a 1/4 fill.
I've never actually heard of someone doing an "angle" block fill but it is a possibility.
Fuel will be critical. Either the highest octane race gasoline you can find, E85 (hard to get a consistent % of alcohol here, E100 might be an answer if you can find it), or methanol (corrosive).
This is what I'd do if I was LIMITED to using the Mazda block. The head will be the deciding factor here and I'm not sure that the head can support 1K power levels with any sort of dependability. The port height is far too low for serious power production.
I know multiple folks have made power close to and above this point but...
They seem to be working on these builds ALL the time. They cannot be labeled dependable or consistent.
If I was building a 1K hp Miata on a budget I'd use a turbocharged GM 3rd gen small block or maybe even the Ecotec (Nigelt's build shows big promise). I hate the Ecotec (multiple design issues like a backwards water pump underneath the turbo) but it's hard to argue with having to REDUCE midrange boost to make it work...
If the budget was not an issue I'd use a K24 variant.
Here's one that can be had for 10k and could come with a guarantee. A 1k hp engine that is less than $10K with any type of guarantee is rare.
K24-KT1000 2.4L Complete Engine - Turbo Endurance Engine – 4 Piston Racing
Now that's not "factory" but your car cannot be considered "factory" by any means anyway.
I agree with Reverant completely. 1000 hp street cars are common now days, many with limited mods.
I'm building a 3S-GTE for a 91 MR2 turbo. This engine family can easily exceed 1K hp with minimal mods.
My source for parts for this engine is ATS racing up in Denton (70 miles from me) and the owner has a street car he drives to work daily that puts 890 to the wheels (approx. 1100 at crank)
He's running a stock 5S-FE block and crank (late 4 cylinder Camry-super cheap),custom pistons, 1/2 filled without a girdle, and a "worked" 3S-GTE head. Everything external is custom but he's been running this puppy for YEARS...
he's running pump E85 and on a 4 gas analyzer he can make the car "disappear" for emissions testing purposes, Cleaner than a stock one.
He has also experimented with lean burn for fuel economy (light cruise ONLY) and at 18-1 AFR on E85 he can achieve stock fuel economy (26 mpg) on a 1100hp engine without detonation!
I'm building their The 450whp recipe - ATS Racing with a forged 3S gen 3 engine. It should be a cake walk and be 10+ years dependable.
The Toyota block is deep skirted (stronger), meaty, and the cylinder head flows great stock but...
The MR2 world had their annual meet last weekend, they went to Ennis for drag racing, ATS in Denton for Dyno competition, and MSR down by me in Cresson for road racing.
My father and I went to the MSR meet and what did we see?
A **** ton of the cars were K swapped!
Even when the current engine is a serious contender the top dogs were basically going K24 anyways.
I did not see any other swaps except the K.
This says something...
Sources I'd try to use for directions, tips, knowledge, parts, opinions, and experience...
SuperMiata
You, yourself Pat...
Keegan Engineering
Godless Commie- he thinks OUTSIDE the box like you.
The Australian guys always have interesting suggestions like Madjak. So much of the really cool stuff seems to be there sadly...
Newza has particularly good ideas. I love his use of an AC compressor for anti-lag/insta-spool
TNTUBA (head experience, maybe more)
Savington (if he is contactable)
Other heavy hitters on this forum that I've forgotten to mention. A single tip or suggestion could be the deciding factor, I'd listen to everyone even if I didn't agree with them. One of the forum members is a engineer for Jesel. I'd want his input.
JE pistons (lots of custom selections)
Wiseco pistons
Darton sleeves
Flyin Miata
Hope this helps, You did ask "what would you do for a 1K BP block mods" This was my answer.
I'd personally not do it and choose a different platform to work with but I will live vicariously through you if you try.
You are one of the few that I know that actually has a chance of completing such a quest.
Putting 1k hp into the ground in a lightweight car through just 2 tires is another quest that you will have to beat if you are successful at making the power.
Hopefully you realize that if you finish this quest you will not be happy and push the bar higher and higher forever after...
The never ending build story.
If I was trying to make a BP make 1000 hp I'd start by talking with a sleeve provider.
I'd sonic test my block to see how big I could make the bore before hitting a water jacket as I believe the sleeve will be stronger if it is fully encapsulated by the base block material.
I'd choose a sleeve with an OD that would fit the above bore.
The sleeve maker should be able to spec out a thickness that your set up needs.
This will dictate the piston diameter. I would expect that this size will be smaller than the stock 83 mm.
I'd try to stay as close to 83 as I could as going much smaller will allow the combustion chamber diameter to overlap the bore.
I'd look into ringing the sleeves at the deck surface and using a custom head gasket (maybe annealed copper).
I'd aim for piston to head clearance between .040 and .045. I'd leave the quench pads in the cylinder head.
This will dictate the head gasket thickness. Most Miata performance pistons drop the "compression distance" too far down the bore which requires excessive decking OR making a custom rod.
A 134mm rod instead of a 133mm rod is nearly perfect for this application but I could not find a 134mm rod (any manufacture) that also had rod journal/pin bore close to the BP sizes.
The rod length might change if I was able to find one of the billet cranks that SuperMiata used to sell.
I'd try to find one of those for this engine as well.
A true custom piston with non-standard compression height could solve all the problems. It would not be cheap.
I'd make it out of 2618, have the top ring land hard anodized and the crowns ceramic coated.
I would add vertical gas porting if it was drag race only. I'd add a vacuum pump with the gas porting if I wasn't using a dry sump set up.
I'd use billet main caps and try to make a real main cap girdle (billet as well). The big problem here is no good meaty areas in the block casting to attach this critter on the perimeter. No good way to cross bolt it either...
I'd use flat top pistons (with valve reliefs). Flat tops usually have the best strength/weight ratio over dished or domed pistons.
I like the way Flying Miata's pistons handle the valve reliefs- little troughs instead of individual cut outs; looks strong and light. I don't like the dish and the resulting narrower quench areas that the dish produces
This engine would require a "tuned" balancer for high RPM. I personally like the "Fluid Damper" for almost all applications but it would not be my choice for this engine.
I'd do the BE pump gears (VVT) and their anti-cavitation plate on a new Mazda VVT pump housing. I'd shim the stock relief valve to 120 psi but control actual oil pressure with an external relief valve (better flow, less pump stress, and external pressure adjustability).
Madjak is my source here Oil Pressure Relief Valve Issue - Is There Any Fix? - Miata Turbo Forum - Boost cars, acquire cats.. I agree with his "fix" completely, Thanks Madjak!
I'd run an "accu-sump" as well. Having 15+ seconds of "extra" oil pressure can save your ***! Being able to pressurize the oil system BEFORE starting it is awesome as well.
A really good windage tray will be needed as the acceleration this should produce will pin ALL of the oil to the back of the motor.
A dry sump system might be called for in this application due to this phenomena.
The head bolts are a bit on the small size, going bigger is usually better but both the block and the cylinder head will need modification and far to many folks on here have cracked heads when using the "monster" studs that are currently available.
I especially agree with your initial upgrade to better (bigger face area) washers that you did years ago. A bigger contact area reduces loading (and should reduce the tendency to crack the head).
I think head lifting will be one of the "Achilles heels" of this engine.
I'd change up the cooling system as well. I'd reverse flow it with an electric water pump and most likely pump cooled water into BOTH the front and the back of the head.
This will allow a 3/4 filled block (above the freeze plugs) with concrete/epoxy.
The stock location/mounting of the water pump limits you to either less than 1/4 fill OR you might fill it at an angle with the back of the engine getting a 3/4 fill and the front of the engine getting a 1/4 fill.
I've never actually heard of someone doing an "angle" block fill but it is a possibility.
Fuel will be critical. Either the highest octane race gasoline you can find, E85 (hard to get a consistent % of alcohol here, E100 might be an answer if you can find it), or methanol (corrosive).
This is what I'd do if I was LIMITED to using the Mazda block. The head will be the deciding factor here and I'm not sure that the head can support 1K power levels with any sort of dependability. The port height is far too low for serious power production.
I know multiple folks have made power close to and above this point but...
They seem to be working on these builds ALL the time. They cannot be labeled dependable or consistent.
If I was building a 1K hp Miata on a budget I'd use a turbocharged GM 3rd gen small block or maybe even the Ecotec (Nigelt's build shows big promise). I hate the Ecotec (multiple design issues like a backwards water pump underneath the turbo) but it's hard to argue with having to REDUCE midrange boost to make it work...
If the budget was not an issue I'd use a K24 variant.
Here's one that can be had for 10k and could come with a guarantee. A 1k hp engine that is less than $10K with any type of guarantee is rare.
K24-KT1000 2.4L Complete Engine - Turbo Endurance Engine – 4 Piston Racing
Now that's not "factory" but your car cannot be considered "factory" by any means anyway.
I agree with Reverant completely. 1000 hp street cars are common now days, many with limited mods.
I'm building a 3S-GTE for a 91 MR2 turbo. This engine family can easily exceed 1K hp with minimal mods.
My source for parts for this engine is ATS racing up in Denton (70 miles from me) and the owner has a street car he drives to work daily that puts 890 to the wheels (approx. 1100 at crank)
He's running a stock 5S-FE block and crank (late 4 cylinder Camry-super cheap),custom pistons, 1/2 filled without a girdle, and a "worked" 3S-GTE head. Everything external is custom but he's been running this puppy for YEARS...
he's running pump E85 and on a 4 gas analyzer he can make the car "disappear" for emissions testing purposes, Cleaner than a stock one.
He has also experimented with lean burn for fuel economy (light cruise ONLY) and at 18-1 AFR on E85 he can achieve stock fuel economy (26 mpg) on a 1100hp engine without detonation!
I'm building their The 450whp recipe - ATS Racing with a forged 3S gen 3 engine. It should be a cake walk and be 10+ years dependable.
The Toyota block is deep skirted (stronger), meaty, and the cylinder head flows great stock but...
The MR2 world had their annual meet last weekend, they went to Ennis for drag racing, ATS in Denton for Dyno competition, and MSR down by me in Cresson for road racing.
My father and I went to the MSR meet and what did we see?
A **** ton of the cars were K swapped!
Even when the current engine is a serious contender the top dogs were basically going K24 anyways.
I did not see any other swaps except the K.
This says something...
Sources I'd try to use for directions, tips, knowledge, parts, opinions, and experience...
SuperMiata
You, yourself Pat...
Keegan Engineering
Godless Commie- he thinks OUTSIDE the box like you.
The Australian guys always have interesting suggestions like Madjak. So much of the really cool stuff seems to be there sadly...
Newza has particularly good ideas. I love his use of an AC compressor for anti-lag/insta-spool
TNTUBA (head experience, maybe more)
Savington (if he is contactable)
Other heavy hitters on this forum that I've forgotten to mention. A single tip or suggestion could be the deciding factor, I'd listen to everyone even if I didn't agree with them. One of the forum members is a engineer for Jesel. I'd want his input.
JE pistons (lots of custom selections)
Wiseco pistons
Darton sleeves
Flyin Miata
Hope this helps, You did ask "what would you do for a 1K BP block mods" This was my answer.
I'd personally not do it and choose a different platform to work with but I will live vicariously through you if you try.
You are one of the few that I know that actually has a chance of completing such a quest.
Putting 1k hp into the ground in a lightweight car through just 2 tires is another quest that you will have to beat if you are successful at making the power.
Hopefully you realize that if you finish this quest you will not be happy and push the bar higher and higher forever after...
The never ending build story.
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