ryansmoneypit

iTrader: (6)

The first picture was the FelPro gasket, it fit really bad. Then I got the gaskets from mazda, and the small thin outside edges pushed out, causing the leak.

I went back and read your post in my other thread, but you don't state weather you let stuff dry first, or what. I understand that this is a pretty simple install, but I have had one failure on the stand, and one in the car. So something in my process is definitely wrong.

To reiterate, my first install with the REAL Mazda gasket was like this:
Ultra paranoid cleanliness
Mazda gasket
Ultra Grey RTV
Wet layup, on all surfaces
Dried for two weeks and looked fine before engine install.

Seal squeezed out a month later.

patsmx5

iTrader: (16)

The seal likely squeezed out while tightening the pan. If it really was fine, and then a month later it came out, that's crazy. The RTV should have dried in a few hours and that glues it in there so that could not happen. Did you use an old tube of RTV that didn't setup correctly?

When I do it, I don't wait for anything to setup.

Clean every part perfectly with brake parts cleaner, let them dry.
RTV on block where MBSP/windage tray goes
Install MBSP/windage tray
Oil pickup tube is next IIRC
RTV block and install little black seal
Oil pan goes on nice and square
Get every bolts hand started
Run every bolt down by hand
Do that again
Do that AGAIN. At this point, I've pulled the pan down using my hand twisting on the 3/8 extension, then I put the extension on a ratchet and lightly torque the bolts evenly with the torque of my wrist.

I'd say from the first squeeze of RTV until the last bolt is torqued is probably 15-20 min with a MBSP since there's more bolts to tighten with it.

ryansmoneypit

iTrader: (6)

I don't know what to say, except that, that's exactly what I did. I was already concerned about it, so I sure as hell wasn't monkey torqueing anything. I think this time I will do a wet layup and go finger tight plus almost nothing, in sequence of course.

A lot of times I over think these really trivial situations and end up screwing myself.

ridethecliche

iTrader: (2)

So I know this is an old thread, but I've talked about it before and I thought it would be good to highlight something savington mentioned.

The moon seals changed for the nb2 motors with the addition of the MBSP. They're thicker. I know this because I ordered the victor whatever ones for an nb2 by mistake and couldn't get my oil pan tight at all without the seals bending and popping out. Went back and checked and the part numbers are different for both mahle and felpro if I switch between nb1 and nb2 years for compatibility.

So, if you have an nb2 oil pan/mbsp, you need to make sure that you're getting the right gasket since they're not the same.

ryansmoneypit

iTrader: (6)

Probably was my problem originally

ridethecliche

iTrader: (2)

Visual inspection between the nb2 Victor whatever and nb1 felpro gaskets indicates that there is a difference in the height of the gasket.

If you've ever had issues with this happening even though you've done things right... Maybe start by making sure you got the right gaskets or do that all before you dive into the motor!

ridethecliche

iTrader: (2)

Yeah, guessing you bought nb2 seals but were running a non nb2 oil pan and tray since you likely weren't running the mbsp. or if the thickness difference is in the mbsp itself, guessing you were running an old baffle.

I don't know if the oil pans themselves are different for the nb2, but I feel like I've read that they are to accomodate the mbsp.

ridethecliche

iTrader: (2)

Quick add on question:

OP's picture is obviously bad and the gasket shouldn't be bulging like that. Is it okay if the wings on the moon seals are coming out a bit? Sometimes they just like to move even when everything else is centered...Next to impossible to get them back in properly without pulling again and lawdy I've tried!

I think the wings, atleast on the felpro gasket, aren't part of the sealing surface from what i can tell.

Savington

iTrader: (31)

No, it's not OK. The wings capture the MBSP and hold the seal in place.

I don't understand, after all of the issues people have documented with non-OEM seals on this forum, why you would choose to use them.

ridethecliche

iTrader: (2)

Well the thing is that it's almost flush with the pan but not with the block if that makes sense. I don't have an mbsp.

I would have ordered the damn Mazda one if I had remembered how much this made me want to set the car on fire. I'll see when the dealer can get the gaskets in, but if it delays things too much I might just lather over it with rtv and cross my fingers. Hopefully I won't have to practice pulling a motor again but...

Comparing it to the old gasket, it looks like the felpro seal does wing out exactly where this one is blipping out. I don't recall the exact shape of the oem one so can't comment on that.

Womp

Tldr;
oil pan moon seals are a bitch if you mismatch to your pan and sometimes the aftermarket ones don't line up nicely...

https://i.imgur.com/LvPAS0h.jpg

Edit: Just caved and ordered oem. I hope this works lol.

ridethecliche

iTrader: (2)

Can anyone state the part numbers for the pre nb2 and nb2 gaskets? I just picked up a set from the dealer that they got based on the parts fiche for the year and they look thicker than I thought they were. Can compare to the wrong ones I have at home but just wanted to see if anyone had the numbers handy.

I have B6F4 10 427 and 428.

Can anyone confirm?

HarryB

For 01-05 VVT engines, the OEM part numbers are:

B541-10-427 Oil pan front seal
B541-10-428 Oil pan rear seal

ridethecliche

iTrader: (2)

Sweet looks like I got the right ones then. Thank you for that!

And now this thread has the oem part info too.

Savington

iTrader: (31)

The easy way to tell them apart is the edges. The 94-00 pan seals have a flat, un-notched edge which tapers off to nothing, since the pan and the block sit directly next to each other at that point. The VVT seals have a small female notch, which corresponds to the male notch on the MBSP, which sits between the block and the pan at the back and front of the motor.

ridethecliche

iTrader: (2)

Okay so the nb2 gaskets are captured by the mbsp while the older ones aren't since there's no corresponding spot on the non mbsp oil pan.

I'm really curious if anyone has pictures of how the pre nb2 seals sit in the block/pan because I think that the arch may protrude a bit when things are torqued down. I had this happen even with the oem seals and I checked the bolt torque and it was under 5ftlb, which is like 60-70inch lbs... Took me almost half a turn to get the click with some bolts.

If anyone is doing this now or has a picture from the past id love to see it. Or even if you did or are doing a rear main seal.

I actually looked up rms pictures from folks and even the oem seemed to be like that but it was hard to tell given that it wasn't the subject of the image.

Thanks for clearing that up though Andrew. I've never seen an mbsp pan so didn't realize the first seals I got were too thick when I first got them. They were the only ones with the 'V' as you'd mentioned so nice to know there's an easy tell!

ridethecliche

iTrader: (2)

This post has a good image of how the mbsp is captured by the female wing on the seals of the NB2.

Targa Miata

Der_Idiot

iTrader: (2)

I had a sliver of one of the wings sticking out. I was positive I had a good seal with RTV so I hit it with a razor blade and haven't had any issues back there.

ridethecliche

iTrader: (2)

I'm sorry for seemingly taking over this thread but I'm baffled... Pun intended.

I've done this like 6 times now, twice with oem seals and things still don't look right. I actually went out and bought a 1/4 inch torque wrench this go around to make damn sure I wasn't over tightening things.

I set everything up per the fsm other than to install the seals and let them set for 30 or so mins with the oil pan on top with baby torque on a few bolts to let things set. Then with everything cleaned up and rtved I used an extension with my bare fingers to tighten all the bolts in a spiral pattern from the center (like with the cams). I went till things were finger tightened then I waited 20 mins before using the wrench to torque to 50 inchlbs to start going again in a spiral. I've read spec is 70-90 so I started low.

The front looks great, but the rear is still winging which is whatever... But I can tell that the center of the seal near the locating tab is getting smushed and flattening out and threatening to protrude. I went to 50inchlb and the locating tab nub was coming out. I loosened the threads a tiny bit on the back and pulled up on the pan a hair and was able to push it back in. All the rtv outside was still tacky so I think it's fine. I tightened with just my fingers till I felt resistance and let it set over night.

Going to go down and see if I can tighten it up again closer to spec now that the rtv has set a bit more but I have no idea why this is happening. I doubt my pan is bent because its more likely to have cracked right? Could the carrier for the rms in the back be bent or to tight? The machine shop had reinstalled that and the rms last year.

I'm just paranoid that this is going to leak and ruin my new clutch so I'm actually leaning towards reinstalling the fucked up clutch till I know if it leaks or not. It's actually possible that my flywheel bolts were the cause of the leak since I used loctite and not something more like a Teflon thread sealant.

Any input? This really shouldn't be this hard lol. There's zero chance I have an nb2 pan.

Haha at least that's good to know!

Savington

iTrader: (31)

Post a pic. There's a little nub that will pop out the back, but it's just a locating nub and it's not actually sealing anything. If the sides of the seal are coming out, something else is wrong.

I've done dozens of these and literally never had a problem, so something isn't right.

ridethecliche

iTrader: (2)

That nub is protruding a bit at 50 inch lbs. If I go up to 70 I think the seal above it is going to pop out past flush. I think my situation will be similar (hopefully) to der_idiot where the winged non sealing parts come out a bit but don't affect anything. They literally just flatten out and squish out since there's no mbsp for them to grab onto. When i pulled my old gaskets out the seal was paper thin there...