Calling ALL Deatschwerks Owners!!!! Too short?
10-22-2009, 11:47 AM
#41
Norm - I havent had a single issue with them sealing against the head, even at 23+ pounds of boost its working just fine. yours started leaking because the over-crushed incorrectly sized top spacers failed. i'm sure with the thinner upper spacers, yours would be good to go.
the problem with spacing them out from the head is that you will be making the spray pattern worse and worse as the spray will come in contact with the walls of the injector bore.
the problem with spacing them out from the head is that you will be making the spray pattern worse and worse as the spray will come in contact with the walls of the injector bore.
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10-22-2009, 06:14 PM
#42
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Norm, get a refund.
Have a time-out for yourself, have a good think, and ascertain what is most important, getting your car up and running ASAP, or your safety.
Take a look at their website. They rave on over and over again about how great their process is, and stress "DROP IN FITMENT" numerous times. On the first page of this thread someone stated:
"We take our customer service very seriously".
Here in Australia, whenever a contract between a buyer and seller becomes sour, we have a Federal system called a Small Claims Tribunal. It's pretty quick, efficient, and fair, and I can only assume that you guys have something similar.
This case is very simple,
- you gave them money for a specific product, trusting their professionalism in providing you the correct goods, you live up to your part of the contract
- they have a duty of care, as industry professionals, to provide you with EXACTLY the goods you paid for
- vendor sent goods, BUT goods are not what was requested
- contract fail on vendor's end
- buyer has a right to take action
Think of it this way, if you were to pay for 17" wheels from, say, Tirerack, and you received 15" wheels.
There is no issue with fitment as 15" and 17" wheels fit exactly the same, the only difference is size.
What would you do?
I feel that I have said enough on this issue.
If you don't give these injectors back, you are only perpetuating this problem for future customers.
Above all, please be careful mate.
PS: If you will allow me to give my experience with a product that did not work properly.
In short,
- I bought a MegaSquirt PNP from DIYAutotune.
- I corresponded with Matt Cramer over a couple of weeks trying to eliminate possible causes.
- We came to an agreement that there is a faulty connection on the PCB.
- Matt instructed me to send the unit back for them to have a look and fix, and if they can't fix it, they'll send me a new one.
- It took the team at DIYAutotune 9 days, starting from when I sent the unit back, to receive, fix, and return the unit to me. Keep in mind I live in Australia!
- They reimbursed me for the cost of sending the unit back, and it has been faultless since.
THAT is customer service. (Thank you again Matt and DIYAutotune)
Have a time-out for yourself, have a good think, and ascertain what is most important, getting your car up and running ASAP, or your safety.
Take a look at their website. They rave on over and over again about how great their process is, and stress "DROP IN FITMENT" numerous times. On the first page of this thread someone stated:
"We take our customer service very seriously".
Here in Australia, whenever a contract between a buyer and seller becomes sour, we have a Federal system called a Small Claims Tribunal. It's pretty quick, efficient, and fair, and I can only assume that you guys have something similar.
This case is very simple,
- you gave them money for a specific product, trusting their professionalism in providing you the correct goods, you live up to your part of the contract
- they have a duty of care, as industry professionals, to provide you with EXACTLY the goods you paid for
- vendor sent goods, BUT goods are not what was requested
- contract fail on vendor's end
- buyer has a right to take action
Think of it this way, if you were to pay for 17" wheels from, say, Tirerack, and you received 15" wheels.
There is no issue with fitment as 15" and 17" wheels fit exactly the same, the only difference is size.
What would you do?
I feel that I have said enough on this issue.
If you don't give these injectors back, you are only perpetuating this problem for future customers.
Above all, please be careful mate.
PS: If you will allow me to give my experience with a product that did not work properly.
In short,
- I bought a MegaSquirt PNP from DIYAutotune.
- I corresponded with Matt Cramer over a couple of weeks trying to eliminate possible causes.
- We came to an agreement that there is a faulty connection on the PCB.
- Matt instructed me to send the unit back for them to have a look and fix, and if they can't fix it, they'll send me a new one.
- It took the team at DIYAutotune 9 days, starting from when I sent the unit back, to receive, fix, and return the unit to me. Keep in mind I live in Australia!
- They reimbursed me for the cost of sending the unit back, and it has been faultless since.
THAT is customer service. (Thank you again Matt and DIYAutotune)
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10-22-2009, 07:05 PM
#43
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You are all correct, there has been no resolution. Like OZ, the vendors silence speaks volumes to me. They posted in their vendor forum asking for emails and I and therieldeal both replied. To my knowledge no one has heard back from them. It seems like they are passing off an injector that will work with modifications and some crossing of the fingers as a plug and play end all sollution. This is what I have a problem with, that and the utter lack of communication with the attitude that it is no big deal.
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10-22-2009, 07:10 PM
#44
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P.S., the injectors are definately rebuilt, the same original part numbers were ground off of mine. It is of my opinion that these maybe upgraded and re-flowed/rebuilt subaru injectors that they are selling to the miata community... I do not know for sure though.
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10-22-2009, 07:58 PM
#45
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Their website advertises 100% new injectors with 100% drop-in fitment and "...no connectors or adapters needed".
I have not talked to Deatschwerks since the middle of last week, and I did not request my money back or replacement injectors since I had not concluded that their product was not usable. The fact that some forum members have successfully used these injectors clouds the issue. I would like to hear some discussion from Deatschwerks on this subject. I will email them, reference this thread in case they haven't picked up on the chatter, and ask them to post some discussion here. I actually bought my injectors from Travis. I have emailed him to get his take on the subject.
I have not talked to Deatschwerks since the middle of last week, and I did not request my money back or replacement injectors since I had not concluded that their product was not usable. The fact that some forum members have successfully used these injectors clouds the issue. I would like to hear some discussion from Deatschwerks on this subject. I will email them, reference this thread in case they haven't picked up on the chatter, and ask them to post some discussion here. I actually bought my injectors from Travis. I have emailed him to get his take on the subject.
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10-22-2009, 09:48 PM
#47
Their website advertises 100% new injectors with 100% drop-in fitment and "...no connectors or adapters needed".
I have not talked to Deatschwerks since the middle of last week, and I did not request my money back or replacement injectors since I had not concluded that their product was not usable. The fact that some forum members have successfully used these injectors clouds the issue. I would like to hear some discussion from Deatschwerks on this subject. I will email them, reference this thread in case they haven't picked up on the chatter, and ask them to post some discussion here. I actually bought my injectors from Travis. I have emailed him to get his take on the subject.
I have not talked to Deatschwerks since the middle of last week, and I did not request my money back or replacement injectors since I had not concluded that their product was not usable. The fact that some forum members have successfully used these injectors clouds the issue. I would like to hear some discussion from Deatschwerks on this subject. I will email them, reference this thread in case they haven't picked up on the chatter, and ask them to post some discussion here. I actually bought my injectors from Travis. I have emailed him to get his take on the subject.
All sealing occurs not in the crush direction, but from the sides by the O-rings.
The crush piece was recently changed to this current piece to make one injector fit all years of Miata. The crush pieces are actually not responsible for anything but keeping the injector "down in the saddle." If you removed the crush piece, the injector should function the same, but as another member guessed that could cause the spray pattern to get a little upredictable as it bounced off everything to get to the runner.
The original injectors that I recieved from Deatschwerks seem to be slightly different from these. I have a much more rigid and shorter engagement piece that sits ontop of the injector. Mine are a little loose, maybe 1/32inch of travel, but that would be normal. You couldn't have the part mechanically pressing in the injector, but at the same time the rubber seen in Norm's motor looks to be an ultra soft rubber. I would think ideal engagement would be of a harder rubber with more care taken to get a different spacer for each year that requires a different hieght. That was my opinion not Mike's.
I think to test this what we need is for the year in question to have them atleast partially installed and really see if any seals on the side are broken by the up and down movement.
I don't think it would hurt anything for that gromet to be split like that, but its not what you want to see upon removing a set of injectors you spent good money on, and I think it definitely warrants being investigated further.
My appologies Norm for not getting back with you earlier. I just got in, and now its kind of late to call.
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10-26-2009, 02:49 PM
#49
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My mistake - deatschwerks 600cc injectors fit my ‘02 perfectly!!
Well, I think I have a handle on the Deatschwerks injector length issue! You can get the summary of the results in this paragraph and read on for the long-*** detailed story if you want. In my particular case the whole injector length/crushed upper isolator issue was due to fuel rail spacers that fell out unbeknownst to me while installing the Deatschwerks 600cc injectors!! After replacing the missing spacers the Deatschwerks injectors fit perfectly. They are, in fact, a little shorter than stock injectors, but with stock fuel rail hardware and the correct upper isolators, they fit as well as stock. I have to retract everything I previously said about Deatschwerks injectors not fitting properly.
Holy ****, I’m pretty embarrassed, but finding that the problem does not lie with one of the most available injector sources we have is a good thing.
I have always consulted a shop manual before starting a new wrenching activity that I had no experience with, especially something like changing injectors, to get a good picture of what I’ll run into. This time, however, I was in a big hurry, had the help of a good friend with whom I’d built engines together, and we dove into the injector swap without any preparation. This was the first big mistake. Apparently, the three fuel rail spacers fell off unnoticed and we buckled everything back down without them. I had not known to look for them (being a dumbass for not reviewing the manual) and spacers never crossed my mind. The reduced fuel rail height, about 3/16”, was enough to crush the upper isolator on two of the injectors.
The 600cc injectors worked and I had no reason to suspect a problem until I had to swap back to stock injectors and discovered the damaged isolators. Even after reinstalling the stockers and finding the fitment very tight, it still didn’t occur to me that something more general was wrong. This was the second big mistake. I had never installed Miata injectors before so I had no reference to how tight things should fit. I made the assumption that the shorter 600cc injectors (1/8” shorter) used extra-long isolators to make up for mismatch in length and that created the problem. Having read on this forum that other Deatschwerks users had received what seemed like too-short injectors, this all seemed to make sense. I emailed and telephoned Deatschwerks directly, but didn’t get to talk to someone who really knew the details of the Miata application. At my request they did send me two different sets of upper isolators of different lengths, but that contact left me feeling like Deatschwerks wasn’t interested in solving the real problem.
So I posted on this original thread about Deatschwerks injector length and got numerous replies of experiences ranging from injectors that were much too short to smooth installations with no problems. The discussion stirred up some Deatschwerks bashing, especially since Deatschwerks offered no clarifications during this discussion and had not gotten to the bottom of the issue brought up by the OP either.
Finally, after I emailed every contact name I could find at Deatschwerks website again to request their input to this issue, I got a call from David Deatsch on Friday. David explained the development process for the Miata injector application, the proper way to measure “effective” injector length, and the way the design of the application provides for one injector body to fit all year Miatas. In that discussion David mentioned that missing spacers under the fuel rail could cause the appearance that the upper isolators were too long and therefore would crush when everything was tightened down. A light went off in my head because that would explain every problem I had experienced. Sure enough, I checked for the spacers, they were missing, and I actually found all three of them scattered between my shop floor, my garage floor, and one still lodged below the intake manifold after driving the car on a 1500 mile trip last weekend! After replacing the spacers the installation of the Deatschwerks 600cc injectors proceeded without a hitch. The fitment seems perfect.
Here is what I think I learned from David Deatsch:
1. He insists that the injectors are 100% new from Denso, although they were not made specifically for Miatas.
2. The injector body total length is, in fact, slightly shorter than the stock Miata injector (by about 1/8”). It is the closest available match in length from Denso in 600cc capacity and the correct electrical connector.
3. The Denso part number is purposely obliterated by Deatschwerks because they do not want to use the Denso part number. They have not found a suitable method for applying their unique part number, but realize that they need to do so.
4. The “effective” length of an injector is measured from the base of the lower seal to the top of the upper isolator. Selection of the proper length isolator is important to assure a proper fit for the specific Miata year model. See attached photo of both my stock 2002 injector and my DW 600cc injector. I didn’t have an early stock injector but you can refer to a photo in an earlier post in this thread that the location of the important elements appears to be the same for early and late injectors.
5. The fuel rail does not make direct mechanical contact with the top of the injector and does not impart a load to the injector to make the injector seal at the head, except for the effect of the fuel pressure. Axially, the o-ring end floats freely inside the fuel rail bore. (I had misunderstood this in the initial conversation with Deatschwerks.)
6. The fitment is, in fact, 100% drop-in for stock applications. The injectors are designed to fit stock fuel rails with all stock hardware in place. Any fuel rail spacers that have been removed or lost will result in poor fitment. See attached photos of loose fuel rail with center spacer in place. This will be old news for experienced guys, but maybe a fellow noob will find it helpful. Don’t lose these spacers. Another photo shows the spacer with the injectors to illustrate how much extra crush was placed on the injectors with the spacers missing. The stock injectors’ upper isolators were mashed and deformed some, too.
In my mind the above explains and resolves all the identified issues with Deatschwerks injectors that I had. At this point, I am completely satisfied with fitment of my Deatschwerks injectors. I bought them largely because they would be “plug-n-play” and they are exactly that. All my issues have been resolved and the design of the Deatschwerks injector explained. With regard to my 2002 application, the Deatschwerks design approach seems sound and I apologize for my part in any Deatschwerks bashing that has occurred due to my dumbass mistake.
I would make one suggestion to Deatschwerks. It would have been great to have a set of all the available upper isolators and some installation instructions in the box with the injectors explaining the “effective length” concept and how to select which ones to use for my particular model year. That could have saved a lot of misunderstanding.
--Norm
Holy ****, I’m pretty embarrassed, but finding that the problem does not lie with one of the most available injector sources we have is a good thing.
I have always consulted a shop manual before starting a new wrenching activity that I had no experience with, especially something like changing injectors, to get a good picture of what I’ll run into. This time, however, I was in a big hurry, had the help of a good friend with whom I’d built engines together, and we dove into the injector swap without any preparation. This was the first big mistake. Apparently, the three fuel rail spacers fell off unnoticed and we buckled everything back down without them. I had not known to look for them (being a dumbass for not reviewing the manual) and spacers never crossed my mind. The reduced fuel rail height, about 3/16”, was enough to crush the upper isolator on two of the injectors.
The 600cc injectors worked and I had no reason to suspect a problem until I had to swap back to stock injectors and discovered the damaged isolators. Even after reinstalling the stockers and finding the fitment very tight, it still didn’t occur to me that something more general was wrong. This was the second big mistake. I had never installed Miata injectors before so I had no reference to how tight things should fit. I made the assumption that the shorter 600cc injectors (1/8” shorter) used extra-long isolators to make up for mismatch in length and that created the problem. Having read on this forum that other Deatschwerks users had received what seemed like too-short injectors, this all seemed to make sense. I emailed and telephoned Deatschwerks directly, but didn’t get to talk to someone who really knew the details of the Miata application. At my request they did send me two different sets of upper isolators of different lengths, but that contact left me feeling like Deatschwerks wasn’t interested in solving the real problem.
So I posted on this original thread about Deatschwerks injector length and got numerous replies of experiences ranging from injectors that were much too short to smooth installations with no problems. The discussion stirred up some Deatschwerks bashing, especially since Deatschwerks offered no clarifications during this discussion and had not gotten to the bottom of the issue brought up by the OP either.
Finally, after I emailed every contact name I could find at Deatschwerks website again to request their input to this issue, I got a call from David Deatsch on Friday. David explained the development process for the Miata injector application, the proper way to measure “effective” injector length, and the way the design of the application provides for one injector body to fit all year Miatas. In that discussion David mentioned that missing spacers under the fuel rail could cause the appearance that the upper isolators were too long and therefore would crush when everything was tightened down. A light went off in my head because that would explain every problem I had experienced. Sure enough, I checked for the spacers, they were missing, and I actually found all three of them scattered between my shop floor, my garage floor, and one still lodged below the intake manifold after driving the car on a 1500 mile trip last weekend! After replacing the spacers the installation of the Deatschwerks 600cc injectors proceeded without a hitch. The fitment seems perfect.
Here is what I think I learned from David Deatsch:
1. He insists that the injectors are 100% new from Denso, although they were not made specifically for Miatas.
2. The injector body total length is, in fact, slightly shorter than the stock Miata injector (by about 1/8”). It is the closest available match in length from Denso in 600cc capacity and the correct electrical connector.
3. The Denso part number is purposely obliterated by Deatschwerks because they do not want to use the Denso part number. They have not found a suitable method for applying their unique part number, but realize that they need to do so.
4. The “effective” length of an injector is measured from the base of the lower seal to the top of the upper isolator. Selection of the proper length isolator is important to assure a proper fit for the specific Miata year model. See attached photo of both my stock 2002 injector and my DW 600cc injector. I didn’t have an early stock injector but you can refer to a photo in an earlier post in this thread that the location of the important elements appears to be the same for early and late injectors.
5. The fuel rail does not make direct mechanical contact with the top of the injector and does not impart a load to the injector to make the injector seal at the head, except for the effect of the fuel pressure. Axially, the o-ring end floats freely inside the fuel rail bore. (I had misunderstood this in the initial conversation with Deatschwerks.)
6. The fitment is, in fact, 100% drop-in for stock applications. The injectors are designed to fit stock fuel rails with all stock hardware in place. Any fuel rail spacers that have been removed or lost will result in poor fitment. See attached photos of loose fuel rail with center spacer in place. This will be old news for experienced guys, but maybe a fellow noob will find it helpful. Don’t lose these spacers. Another photo shows the spacer with the injectors to illustrate how much extra crush was placed on the injectors with the spacers missing. The stock injectors’ upper isolators were mashed and deformed some, too.
In my mind the above explains and resolves all the identified issues with Deatschwerks injectors that I had. At this point, I am completely satisfied with fitment of my Deatschwerks injectors. I bought them largely because they would be “plug-n-play” and they are exactly that. All my issues have been resolved and the design of the Deatschwerks injector explained. With regard to my 2002 application, the Deatschwerks design approach seems sound and I apologize for my part in any Deatschwerks bashing that has occurred due to my dumbass mistake.
I would make one suggestion to Deatschwerks. It would have been great to have a set of all the available upper isolators and some installation instructions in the box with the injectors explaining the “effective length” concept and how to select which ones to use for my particular model year. That could have saved a lot of misunderstanding.
--Norm
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10-26-2009, 06:15 PM
#50
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Norm, this may be true for you, and I'm glad you figured out your problem, but for some of us, it was not that simple. Not saying I regret my purchase, but for some, minor modifications are required. Injector lengths vary depending on the year, point in case your 2002 vs my 95.
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10-26-2009, 06:28 PM
#51
So Norm pretty much summed it up. I'm not exactly sure whats going on with these injectors yet. They were direct fit for my 94, Norm's 02 Stein's 99 Vlad's 00? but there are still some people with problems. Maybe it was a few confused shipments? I've sold alot of these, and only a couple of people seem to have had issues. This makes me think it was an error in install, or an error in shipment. (Definitely not pointing fingers at the buyers, but thats the only 2 answers we have to the what went wrong.)
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10-26-2009, 08:47 PM
#53
I was putting a little maybe in there about improper install. Most of you guys know you way around a wrench better than just about anyone. I'm just saying I test fitted the product and thoroughly tested it on my 94 before I passed it onto the market. If there was a fit problem and it wasn't install I just have to believe its just a mixed up shipment.
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10-26-2009, 09:20 PM
#54
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TurboRoach, for you and anyone else who had to remove fuel rail spacers to make the injectors fit, there would seem to be only one answer - you received the wrong injectors - since Post No. 32 of this thread established that the NA and NB injectors are the same length and interchangeable.
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10-27-2009, 05:25 PM
#55
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na and nb injectors are definately interchangable, but look at the nb deatsch injectors vs the pics of my na deatsch injectors and then look at the pics of the two on the website.
They are using different injectors for the na's vs nb's. I'm not sure why, but the nb deatsch injectors seem to have pintle caps where mine (na) do not. And mine are definately shorter than the ones you received when compared to the stock injectors.
With the small top spacers that I was sent originally the only way I could get them to seal properly was to completely remove the isolators that go under the fuel rail. Deatschwerks then sent me the longer top spacers and they still would not seal at the head. Pissed fuel everywhere! I then took my isolators and ground them down to half thickness. This has worked so far.
Travis, did the ones for your 94 have the pintle caps? I am curious as to if this is the difference between the injectors... Maybe the ones for the nb's that they are sending out are longer?...
They are using different injectors for the na's vs nb's. I'm not sure why, but the nb deatsch injectors seem to have pintle caps where mine (na) do not. And mine are definately shorter than the ones you received when compared to the stock injectors.
With the small top spacers that I was sent originally the only way I could get them to seal properly was to completely remove the isolators that go under the fuel rail. Deatschwerks then sent me the longer top spacers and they still would not seal at the head. Pissed fuel everywhere! I then took my isolators and ground them down to half thickness. This has worked so far.
Travis, did the ones for your 94 have the pintle caps? I am curious as to if this is the difference between the injectors... Maybe the ones for the nb's that they are sending out are longer?...
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10-27-2009, 06:42 PM
#56
TurboRoach, for you and anyone else who had to remove fuel rail spacers to make the injectors fit, there would seem to be only one answer - you received the wrong injectors - since Post No. 32 of this thread established that the NA and NB injectors are the same length and interchangeable.
I didn't need this thread to tell me NB injectors worked in an NA. I pulled a set of NB injectors out to put the 600s in.
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10-28-2009, 05:49 PM
#57
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We have been working with Norm and various other customers on their fitment problems. We prefer to service our customers on a case-by-case basis rather than posting up general info on a forum in hopes that it gets disseminated to everyone. I apologize if our lack of posting was mistaken as a lack of caring about our customers or our product.
Some of our NA injectors were built with the incorrect upper spacer thus making the injector fit too short. Some customers fixed this themselves and others contacted us for help. As far as I know everyone who contacted us has been taken care of. If this is not the case, and there is still someone out there who has unresolved issues, PLEASE call me and we will take care of you. Ask for me directly (david deatsch) 405-217-0701 or email me at david@deatschwerks.com. This is a simple issue with a simple fix.
DeatschWerks Miata injectors are 100% new and 100% drop-in fitment. Although they may look drastically different, when properly built, the NA, NB, and DW injectors have the same functional length (as norms post explained). If they do not fit something is wrong. Please check the following and call us if you need more help...
1. The DW injector should have a upper and a lower spacer installed on the injectors when you recieve them.
2. The DW upper spacer should be taller than the OEM spacer (8mm vs 5mm)
3. Make sure the OEM lower spacer is removed from the head/manifold before installing the new injectors.
4. Make sure you reinstall the plastic spacers that go between the fuel rail and head/manifold.
5. Once installed, the fit should be snug... not too loose and not too tight. 1/8" or so of vertical play is normal. Fuel pressure, not mechanical pressure is responsible for sealing the injector in the head/manifold.
6. DW injectors are designed to fit the stock/OEM set-up we cannot guarantee the correct fitment if anything has been altered or removed
I am going to post these guidelines in our vendor forum as well. I hope this clears things up.
Best Regards,
David Deatsch
Some of our NA injectors were built with the incorrect upper spacer thus making the injector fit too short. Some customers fixed this themselves and others contacted us for help. As far as I know everyone who contacted us has been taken care of. If this is not the case, and there is still someone out there who has unresolved issues, PLEASE call me and we will take care of you. Ask for me directly (david deatsch) 405-217-0701 or email me at david@deatschwerks.com. This is a simple issue with a simple fix.
DeatschWerks Miata injectors are 100% new and 100% drop-in fitment. Although they may look drastically different, when properly built, the NA, NB, and DW injectors have the same functional length (as norms post explained). If they do not fit something is wrong. Please check the following and call us if you need more help...
1. The DW injector should have a upper and a lower spacer installed on the injectors when you recieve them.
2. The DW upper spacer should be taller than the OEM spacer (8mm vs 5mm)
3. Make sure the OEM lower spacer is removed from the head/manifold before installing the new injectors.
4. Make sure you reinstall the plastic spacers that go between the fuel rail and head/manifold.
5. Once installed, the fit should be snug... not too loose and not too tight. 1/8" or so of vertical play is normal. Fuel pressure, not mechanical pressure is responsible for sealing the injector in the head/manifold.
6. DW injectors are designed to fit the stock/OEM set-up we cannot guarantee the correct fitment if anything has been altered or removed
I am going to post these guidelines in our vendor forum as well. I hope this clears things up.
Best Regards,
David Deatsch
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