Coolant Reroute Options
02-12-2021, 02:10 AM
#42
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 1,015
Total Cats: 140
DFI is another: everyone adopted, everyone has problems with dirty intake valves (because of NO catch cans), Mercedes and Ford have already added port injectors to solve this issue, all the others will follow...
Soon all the gasoline powered new cars will have two injectors per cylinder, one direct and one port. Tuning will become more complicated but will yield better results.
Soon all the gasoline powered new cars will have two injectors per cylinder, one direct and one port. Tuning will become more complicated but will yield better results.
(hanging out too much with VAG guys)
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02-12-2021, 11:26 AM
#43
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Granbury Texas
Posts: 668
Total Cats: 190
WMI? water/methanol/injection?
See that's not fair, spraying an oil dissolving fluid on to the intake valves is "cheating" from the OEMs viewpoint.
The Ford Ecoboost engines have yet another problem.
That is by "Ford Tech Makuloco" and basically says "no liquid cleaning" of the intake valves.
His videos are GREAT. I will never do a Ford "internals" video because of him. I check if he has a video on ANY Ford issue that is new to me.
He IS a technician and a wizard...
Fords warranty solution to this problem is to "replace heads" and they have completely overlooked the ancient BMW solution to this issue ("fancy pants" intake bead blaster with walnut shells).
Sadly this requires technicians that understand that you cannot use this equipment when the intake valves are open. The average dealership wrench now-a-days might not be able to understand.
The "A" guys will but the "C" or "D" techs will end up filling a cylinder with a brown non-compressible media...
I believe the best long term solution is a catch can (FTM says this as well) but normal consumers will baulk at draining the catch can regularly, not know what to do with the resultant slimy mess, and this will effect sales of this engine package.
The final "solution" will be to include port injection with DFI. This is an expensive fix for an OEM and it is being adopted currently.
The Mercedes 4 cylinder it is applied to makes 400+ hp as sold new with a warranty!
Strangely Ford and Mercedes engage the port injection exactly opposite of each other...
"Two men say they're Jesus- One of them must be wrong" --- Dire Straits
I advise my customers to AVOID the EcoBoost set up like COVID...
The current 5.0 appears to be a good motor and I have seen multiple vehicles with the 5.0 at 150k+ with no nasty issues...
To those that dislike the "cold nature during normal operation" aspect of the Q-max...
The re-route is SO good that normal operating temperature being too cold is an issue.
Hot digity damn!
Sign me up!
It's EASY to block off a radiator, it's a bitch to get to the point of having to block off the radiator on a Miata.
This aspect ALONE is one of the best reasons to use the Q-max...
One final note for EO2K...
I almost bought that used Q-max that you put on your "Rambo Miata"
Had I'd seen TurboFans reply before it was put up for sale I would have.
It looked like a damn good deal.
I can buy the required hose CHEAP although I don't believe it's "made in America" any longer.
You "sniped" me out...
Sorry for the massive thread drift, back to the regular scheduled programming...
See that's not fair, spraying an oil dissolving fluid on to the intake valves is "cheating" from the OEMs viewpoint.
The Ford Ecoboost engines have yet another problem.
That is by "Ford Tech Makuloco" and basically says "no liquid cleaning" of the intake valves.
His videos are GREAT. I will never do a Ford "internals" video because of him. I check if he has a video on ANY Ford issue that is new to me.
He IS a technician and a wizard...
Fords warranty solution to this problem is to "replace heads" and they have completely overlooked the ancient BMW solution to this issue ("fancy pants" intake bead blaster with walnut shells).
Sadly this requires technicians that understand that you cannot use this equipment when the intake valves are open. The average dealership wrench now-a-days might not be able to understand.
The "A" guys will but the "C" or "D" techs will end up filling a cylinder with a brown non-compressible media...
I believe the best long term solution is a catch can (FTM says this as well) but normal consumers will baulk at draining the catch can regularly, not know what to do with the resultant slimy mess, and this will effect sales of this engine package.
The final "solution" will be to include port injection with DFI. This is an expensive fix for an OEM and it is being adopted currently.
The Mercedes 4 cylinder it is applied to makes 400+ hp as sold new with a warranty!
Strangely Ford and Mercedes engage the port injection exactly opposite of each other...
"Two men say they're Jesus- One of them must be wrong" --- Dire Straits
I advise my customers to AVOID the EcoBoost set up like COVID...
The current 5.0 appears to be a good motor and I have seen multiple vehicles with the 5.0 at 150k+ with no nasty issues...
To those that dislike the "cold nature during normal operation" aspect of the Q-max...
The re-route is SO good that normal operating temperature being too cold is an issue.
Hot digity damn!
Sign me up!
It's EASY to block off a radiator, it's a bitch to get to the point of having to block off the radiator on a Miata.
This aspect ALONE is one of the best reasons to use the Q-max...
One final note for EO2K...
I almost bought that used Q-max that you put on your "Rambo Miata"
Had I'd seen TurboFans reply before it was put up for sale I would have.
It looked like a damn good deal.
I can buy the required hose CHEAP although I don't believe it's "made in America" any longer.
You "sniped" me out...
Sorry for the massive thread drift, back to the regular scheduled programming...
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02-12-2021, 12:29 PM
#44
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Atlanta
Posts: 790
Total Cats: 188
While we're thread drifting...
My understanding is that intake valve deposits are primarily from exhaust reversion rather than PCV crud, and that OE's have come a long way in preventing the problem with less cam overlap, etc. Basically by designing DI heads specifically for DI applications.
I know way more people that have issues with the Ford 5.0 consuming oil by the gallon than I do people having issues with the EB motors. My n=1 with my 7 year old 3.5EB is that it has been absolutely bulletproof.
My understanding is that intake valve deposits are primarily from exhaust reversion rather than PCV crud, and that OE's have come a long way in preventing the problem with less cam overlap, etc. Basically by designing DI heads specifically for DI applications.
I know way more people that have issues with the Ford 5.0 consuming oil by the gallon than I do people having issues with the EB motors. My n=1 with my 7 year old 3.5EB is that it has been absolutely bulletproof.
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02-12-2021, 02:59 PM
#45
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Granbury Texas
Posts: 668
Total Cats: 190
All of the wounded EcoBoosts I've encountered had 100K+ miles on them.
The owners LOVED the trucks. Big power and excellent fuel economy. Better than anything else in their "class".
The most common issue I've seen is leaking coolant connections at the turbos. This is often misdiagnosed as a freeze plug issue or a coolant leak from something else.
The fix is to replace the coolant connections AND the steel tubing that goes to them. Just replacing the connectors is a "band aid" as the tubes get "distorted" with use.
This requires removing the turbos and then the tubes. It is a PIA to do and the book times for turbo r+r is 5+ hours PER side.
There are a bunch of torque to yield fasteners which "should" be replaced.
If your DIYing it you might re-use some of these but if your doing it professionally it's not worth the possibility of having a "come back", getting to re-do the entire job for free, and having an unhappy customer.
By the time your done with the job it's nearing $1500 to JUST fix the leaks. You don't do anything to the turbos themselves...
This is BS in my book. I feel sorry for the customer when I find one of these.
This symptom is noticed first with the coolant fans going into "maximum overdrive" and the fans will be louder than the engine. It sounds like a Cessna aircraft.
Another thing I've seen is the heater connections at the firewall being "melted" by the excessive heat from the right turbo. They are located directly above it AND the firewall wraps up and above them. Makes for a nice toaster oven environment.
Ford fixed this by moving the connections 18" outboard and placing them over the right fender well. This is not a mod that can be re-created in an early truck.
Then you have the intake valve BS.
Most of the post 2004 vehicles no longer have EGR valves as the OEMs figured out adding overlap will effectively add reversion at a level that negates the need for the EGR valve when operated below 3K rpm.
This also requires a compression increase as the overlap reduces dynamic compression. This improves efficiency and eliminates an expensive valve and it's required hardware. Better power, fuel economy, reduced cost, reduced warranty claims; more better all around.
What the OEMs DO NOT state is that this set up will significantly increase NOx emissions when operated above 3K rpm and the reversion effect reduces. The emissions certifications test "normal" operation and do not include WOT operations.
This works fine as long as you have fuel cleaning the intake valves. When they changed to DFI they were probably surprised at the new issues they created. From the quick research I've just done it seems most of the EB installations do not have EGR valves.
Then you have an internal water pump.
These are never a good solution in my book in any engine. Chrysler had a bunch of V6s that had internals in the late 90s, what a PIA!
An internal water pump is an "accountant" decision, not an engineering one. The question they needed to answer is "will it make it past the warranty coverage?"
The answer is yes...
The 5.0 has an external water pump.
If your EB water pump leaks you will have NO indications you have an issue until you notice the coolant is low, the fans are on maximum overdrive, OR your oil pressure drops because the bearings have failed due to contaminated oil.
It's a bitch to replace as well, effectively a timing chain job.
Bad Ju-Ju...
I am a turbo lover, just not on my "appliance" cars.
Honda replaced the K24 with a 2.0 turbo and is already in class action lawsuits over the new engines.
4 cylinder Accords are one of my most recommended cars, just the K24 ones however.
I also said the 5.0 "appears" to be a good engine but the jury is still out IMO.
Your post on the increased oil consumption is a negative in my book. Thank you for your comments. I will watch closer and ask oil consumptions questions more often because of this...
I do apologize to any EB owners I might have offended. I just don't think I'm going to see many past 200K with no problems. I see GM and Toyota trucks all the time past this mark.
I've got one customer with a 2000 T100 Toy with 550K, a five speed, never had the engine opened up, on the original clutch. He bought it new.
It's slow and boring but drop dead reliable.
You need to remember I'm looking at these from a technician's viewpoint, not an owner's viewpoint.
I want to be able to effectively repair a vehicle and not see it back a month later with other issues.
I don't want to do $1500 repairs that just fix what should be an inexpensive problem.
I want to avoid multiple repairs in a short time on a single vehicle. This ALWAYS ends up with a customer believing you are screwing them over.
It's so much better to advise a customer to "eject" from a possible black hole and replace the T.R.U.C.K. or C.A.R. unit instead. I've never had a complaint regarding this, most people say "Thank you for being honest and not ripping me off".
I want to repair the truck and then work on all the other vehicles the customer, their families, and their friends own.
I have a nearly 100% "kill ratio". Once I fix something for a customer they do not take any of their vehicles to anyone else.
It's the DEAD season in the automotive repair world and I'm busy enough to not have time to work on my own projects.
Sorry guys, I type too much...
Too much thread drift. I'm out.
The owners LOVED the trucks. Big power and excellent fuel economy. Better than anything else in their "class".
The most common issue I've seen is leaking coolant connections at the turbos. This is often misdiagnosed as a freeze plug issue or a coolant leak from something else.
The fix is to replace the coolant connections AND the steel tubing that goes to them. Just replacing the connectors is a "band aid" as the tubes get "distorted" with use.
This requires removing the turbos and then the tubes. It is a PIA to do and the book times for turbo r+r is 5+ hours PER side.
There are a bunch of torque to yield fasteners which "should" be replaced.
If your DIYing it you might re-use some of these but if your doing it professionally it's not worth the possibility of having a "come back", getting to re-do the entire job for free, and having an unhappy customer.
By the time your done with the job it's nearing $1500 to JUST fix the leaks. You don't do anything to the turbos themselves...
This is BS in my book. I feel sorry for the customer when I find one of these.
This symptom is noticed first with the coolant fans going into "maximum overdrive" and the fans will be louder than the engine. It sounds like a Cessna aircraft.
Another thing I've seen is the heater connections at the firewall being "melted" by the excessive heat from the right turbo. They are located directly above it AND the firewall wraps up and above them. Makes for a nice toaster oven environment.
Ford fixed this by moving the connections 18" outboard and placing them over the right fender well. This is not a mod that can be re-created in an early truck.
Then you have the intake valve BS.
Most of the post 2004 vehicles no longer have EGR valves as the OEMs figured out adding overlap will effectively add reversion at a level that negates the need for the EGR valve when operated below 3K rpm.
This also requires a compression increase as the overlap reduces dynamic compression. This improves efficiency and eliminates an expensive valve and it's required hardware. Better power, fuel economy, reduced cost, reduced warranty claims; more better all around.
What the OEMs DO NOT state is that this set up will significantly increase NOx emissions when operated above 3K rpm and the reversion effect reduces. The emissions certifications test "normal" operation and do not include WOT operations.
This works fine as long as you have fuel cleaning the intake valves. When they changed to DFI they were probably surprised at the new issues they created. From the quick research I've just done it seems most of the EB installations do not have EGR valves.
Then you have an internal water pump.
These are never a good solution in my book in any engine. Chrysler had a bunch of V6s that had internals in the late 90s, what a PIA!
An internal water pump is an "accountant" decision, not an engineering one. The question they needed to answer is "will it make it past the warranty coverage?"
The answer is yes...
The 5.0 has an external water pump.
If your EB water pump leaks you will have NO indications you have an issue until you notice the coolant is low, the fans are on maximum overdrive, OR your oil pressure drops because the bearings have failed due to contaminated oil.
It's a bitch to replace as well, effectively a timing chain job.
Bad Ju-Ju...
I am a turbo lover, just not on my "appliance" cars.
Honda replaced the K24 with a 2.0 turbo and is already in class action lawsuits over the new engines.
4 cylinder Accords are one of my most recommended cars, just the K24 ones however.
I also said the 5.0 "appears" to be a good engine but the jury is still out IMO.
Your post on the increased oil consumption is a negative in my book. Thank you for your comments. I will watch closer and ask oil consumptions questions more often because of this...
I do apologize to any EB owners I might have offended. I just don't think I'm going to see many past 200K with no problems. I see GM and Toyota trucks all the time past this mark.
I've got one customer with a 2000 T100 Toy with 550K, a five speed, never had the engine opened up, on the original clutch. He bought it new.
It's slow and boring but drop dead reliable.
You need to remember I'm looking at these from a technician's viewpoint, not an owner's viewpoint.
I want to be able to effectively repair a vehicle and not see it back a month later with other issues.
I don't want to do $1500 repairs that just fix what should be an inexpensive problem.
I want to avoid multiple repairs in a short time on a single vehicle. This ALWAYS ends up with a customer believing you are screwing them over.
It's so much better to advise a customer to "eject" from a possible black hole and replace the T.R.U.C.K. or C.A.R. unit instead. I've never had a complaint regarding this, most people say "Thank you for being honest and not ripping me off".
I want to repair the truck and then work on all the other vehicles the customer, their families, and their friends own.
I have a nearly 100% "kill ratio". Once I fix something for a customer they do not take any of their vehicles to anyone else.
It's the DEAD season in the automotive repair world and I'm busy enough to not have time to work on my own projects.
Sorry guys, I type too much...
Too much thread drift. I'm out.
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02-12-2021, 04:57 PM
#47
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Milwaukee, WI
Posts: 1,148
Total Cats: 563
Very detailed response, and I've got just a few things to say to it as long as we are deeply off topic...
Vast majority of newer trucks, regardless of make/model, have issues just as bad (if not worse) than the EB pickups. The added complexities to meet EPA economy demands has really taken a toll on reliability of pickups overall. You don't see many newer 2015+ 1/2 ton pickups making it over 100k miles issue free... Ford has the issues mentioned above which I won't deny plus others you've missed. GM has active lifter issues and major converter/transmission woes (I could rant for a while on GM topic but will save the typing). Dodge has the same active lifter problems, air suspension issues, typical FCA electrical issues... I sold my 2018 Silverado recently due to incredibly inflated sellers market, and don't have any intention of buying a newer pickup again any time soon. If you talk to techs at each dealership, you can easily understand why. Cost of ownership passed the 60k+ mile range (warranty period) is definitely something to be worried about.
On the flip side, I've owned 3 1999-2007 GM's with the older/simpler powertrain designs. All of them had well north of 180k miles on the original powertrain and needed nothing more than very simple and affordable maintenance to keep happily running. They were slower, lower payload, lower tow rating, and lacking of features compared to their newer models, but dead reliable work horses. I'll likely go back to one of them if I end up needing a truck again.
Vast majority of newer trucks, regardless of make/model, have issues just as bad (if not worse) than the EB pickups. The added complexities to meet EPA economy demands has really taken a toll on reliability of pickups overall. You don't see many newer 2015+ 1/2 ton pickups making it over 100k miles issue free... Ford has the issues mentioned above which I won't deny plus others you've missed. GM has active lifter issues and major converter/transmission woes (I could rant for a while on GM topic but will save the typing). Dodge has the same active lifter problems, air suspension issues, typical FCA electrical issues... I sold my 2018 Silverado recently due to incredibly inflated sellers market, and don't have any intention of buying a newer pickup again any time soon. If you talk to techs at each dealership, you can easily understand why. Cost of ownership passed the 60k+ mile range (warranty period) is definitely something to be worried about.
On the flip side, I've owned 3 1999-2007 GM's with the older/simpler powertrain designs. All of them had well north of 180k miles on the original powertrain and needed nothing more than very simple and affordable maintenance to keep happily running. They were slower, lower payload, lower tow rating, and lacking of features compared to their newer models, but dead reliable work horses. I'll likely go back to one of them if I end up needing a truck again.
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02-12-2021, 06:43 PM
#48
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Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Lake Forest, CA
Posts: 7,957
Total Cats: 1,009
Then you have an internal water pump.
These are never a good solution in my book in any engine. Chrysler had a bunch of V6s that had internals in the late 90s, what a PIA!
An internal water pump is an "accountant" decision, not an engineering one. The question they needed to answer is "will it make it past the warranty coverage?"
The answer is yes...
It's a bitch to replace as well, effectively a timing chain job.
Bad Ju-Ju...
These are never a good solution in my book in any engine. Chrysler had a bunch of V6s that had internals in the late 90s, what a PIA!
An internal water pump is an "accountant" decision, not an engineering one. The question they needed to answer is "will it make it past the warranty coverage?"
The answer is yes...
It's a bitch to replace as well, effectively a timing chain job.
Bad Ju-Ju...
Usually.
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02-12-2021, 06:45 PM
#50
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Granbury Texas
Posts: 668
Total Cats: 190
Very detailed response, and I've got just a few things to say to it as long as we are deeply off topic...
Vast majority of newer trucks, regardless of make/model, have issues just as bad (if not worse) than the EB pickups. The added complexities to meet EPA economy demands has really taken a toll on reliability of pickups overall. You don't see many newer 2015+ 1/2 ton pickups making it over 100k miles issue free... Ford has the issues mentioned above which I won't deny plus others you've missed. GM has active lifter issues and major converter/transmission woes (I could rant for a while on GM topic but will save the typing). Dodge has the same active lifter problems, air suspension issues, typical FCA electrical issues... I sold my 2018 Silverado recently due to incredibly inflated sellers market, and don't have any intention of buying a newer pickup again any time soon. If you talk to techs at each dealership, you can easily understand why. Cost of ownership passed the 60k+ mile range (warranty period) is definitely something to be worried about.
On the flip side, I've owned 3 1999-2007 GM's with the older/simpler powertrain designs. All of them had well north of 180k miles on the original powertrain and needed nothing more than very simple and affordable maintenance to keep happily running. They were slower, lower payload, lower tow rating, and lacking of features compared to their newer models, but dead reliable work horses. I'll likely go back to one of them if I end up needing a truck again.
Vast majority of newer trucks, regardless of make/model, have issues just as bad (if not worse) than the EB pickups. The added complexities to meet EPA economy demands has really taken a toll on reliability of pickups overall. You don't see many newer 2015+ 1/2 ton pickups making it over 100k miles issue free... Ford has the issues mentioned above which I won't deny plus others you've missed. GM has active lifter issues and major converter/transmission woes (I could rant for a while on GM topic but will save the typing). Dodge has the same active lifter problems, air suspension issues, typical FCA electrical issues... I sold my 2018 Silverado recently due to incredibly inflated sellers market, and don't have any intention of buying a newer pickup again any time soon. If you talk to techs at each dealership, you can easily understand why. Cost of ownership passed the 60k+ mile range (warranty period) is definitely something to be worried about.
On the flip side, I've owned 3 1999-2007 GM's with the older/simpler powertrain designs. All of them had well north of 180k miles on the original powertrain and needed nothing more than very simple and affordable maintenance to keep happily running. They were slower, lower payload, lower tow rating, and lacking of features compared to their newer models, but dead reliable work horses. I'll likely go back to one of them if I end up needing a truck again.
I'm a little bit more focused regarding early 2000s trucks. 1999 to 2004 with a gen3 small block ONLY. This avoids the dreaded DOD crap and the 5.7 vortec with the fuel "spider"
Even better, make sure you purchase a "Flex Fuel" capable one. They have 30lb injectors rather than 22lb ones. this makes modding the truck easier.
I prefer the cast iron ones. 5.3 is fine but 6.0 is better.
I know exactly how long the original powertrains live...
300k is super common for both engine and transmission. I haven't seen any rear ends fail and the AC components last a shitload longer than pretty much anyone else besides Toyota.
I have a shop that specializes in automotive AC work and MOST of my recent experience is involving these system.
Because of this I don't see many of the issue that seem to plague more modern vehicles.
Chevy trucks from 2010 up will ALL need condensers, 2010-2013 with old style compressors will NOT need a compressor EVER. I haven't sold a one...
2014 and up 50% will also need a compressor 1 out of 2! Variable displacement compressors are much more economical but fragile as eggs.
You can tell by the "stretch to fit" belt melts and "cotten candies" the front of the engine with impossible to remove black goo.
You have to get this crap OFF of the main drive pully. It takes 30+ minutes...
The belt is cool, works great normally and can replace the belt AND tensioner (these are BAD) on an earlier truck but the mess is "special".
I sell 25+ condenser jobs a year and I am a one man shop.
I'm currently starting a "rebuild" on a 04 Tahoe Z71 5.3 that I purchased from a friend for my son. $1000 with random misfires which have turned out to be burned exhaust valves or a weird camshaft problem.
It will get TSP "2.5" porting and rebuild of the stock heads, a TSP low lift cam (wimpy cam) with supporting hardware, and a retune on a 245K short block with no other work as long as the bores look good. I'm expecting 400lbs ft and nearly 400 hp
$2000 worth of parts. It is "flex fuel" capable and will NOT require an injector upgrade!
His will get one of the stretchy belts.
I will post info about this in a thread I'm planning on compression testing.
The only indication I have right now of cylinder head troubles is a strange unevenness in the compression test on a single cylinder.
These have NO external timing marks and I will show how to index and mark the balancer for a leak down test as well.
I'm dying to see the leak down numbers.
Early 21st century Chevy trucks and all their variants are an excellent choice for a daily beater.
It's my most recommended truck for "big truck on a budget".
These can make one of the best "young driver" vehicles available today.
Did it again, sorry, wanted to show my "support" of something as I'm prone to be bitchy about many modern vehicles.
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