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Old 11-16-2009, 08:11 PM   #1
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Default Is E85 with AFR a good idea?

Hi guys

Is anyone here running E85?

I currently run LINK ECU, 550cc, Walbro 190HP, M-tune dual feed fuel rail and I made 287whp on 91 pump gas (99 head, 94 bottom end).

Lately I'm thinking of having the car tuned on E85 but I'm afraid that the 550cc might not be adequate for the increased amount of fuel. Do you think that would be the case?

I did an online search and some people are using an adjustable fuel regulator to provide the ~30% fuel demand by increasing the fuel pressure. Similarly they mentioned that you can reduce the pressure back to normal levels and use regular gas (if you find yourself in a situation where you can't find E85).

Do you see any major issues with running AFPR with LINK and 550s?

Do you have any good AFRP to suggest?

Also I noticed that most turbo cars can see an increase of almost 50% when tuned properly on E85. Since I'm running on stock internals I'll probably tune the car for low end torque and moderate HP levels - maybe limiting the power at 300-330whp. What do you think it's the hp limit on for stock rods and how much for stock pistons?

Thanks
Chris

Last edited by Max_Power; 11-16-2009 at 09:10 PM.
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Old 11-16-2009, 09:26 PM   #2
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What you gain in E85 you will loose if you keep the injectors, you"ll need 850's to see a gain. then expect about 10% more power, with a good tune.
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Old 11-16-2009, 10:53 PM   #3
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Im pretty sure Rushin' is running E85
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Old 11-16-2009, 11:30 PM   #4
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Hearing your on a stock bottom end, hasn't it been proven many times that high 200's is about all the abuse stock rods want to take? A good tune is worth lots in keeping away detonation, and your ring lands, but true force {Torque} against weak rods will end up ugly. By all means, push the envelope, but I just see your engine succumbing to the weakest link in your bottom end. Seems to be the norm here. bend em, before you can save em.
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Old 11-17-2009, 01:16 AM   #5
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e85 is a ****** joke man
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Old 11-17-2009, 01:45 AM   #6
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wow, another dumb newbie question!! try the damn search!! this HAS been covered already!!
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Old 11-17-2009, 01:56 AM   #7
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expect to see a 30% raise in fuel demands with e85. Ive tuned a few dsms running ECMlink and e85 with large injectors in the upper 11's on the wideband. You can run it, but just be sure that your fueling hardware can support the increase in fuel demand.

But like other have stated, the stock rods can be a hindrance with excessive cylinder pressures, along with other issues such as the rubber fuel linings sprouting leaks, etc...

Anyone else want to chime in? I would love to run e85 in my miata but ive got a lot of other things to purchase before i splurge on a FMU.

Nomie
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Old 11-17-2009, 01:26 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jacob300zx View Post
What you gain in E85 you will loose if you keep the injectors, you"ll need 850's to see a gain. then expect about 10% more power, with a good tune.
Could you please elaborate what would be different if I run AFPR at 73,5 psi (or more if I want to have more room)? In my mind it should be an equivalent.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Amporful View Post
Im pretty sure Rushin' is running E85
Thank you I just PMed him.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jedduh01 View Post
Hearing your on a stock bottom end, hasn't it been proven many times that high 200's is about all the abuse stock rods want to take? A good tune is worth lots in keeping away detonation, and your ring lands, but true force {Torque} against weak rods will end up ugly. By all means, push the envelope, but I just see your engine succumbing to the weakest link in your bottom end. Seems to be the norm here. bend em, before you can save em.
I hear you... I guess I'm already running at the limit, so sooner or later will happen...
Quote:
Originally Posted by magnamx-5 View Post
e85 is a ****** joke man
Can you please explain? Do you have personal experience? I don't know if it's only me but I saw a few examples where the engine gained more than 50% in HP! Granted that since I can't raise the boost (my GT2560 is already maxed out) I should have such increase but still I would expect to see some improvement due to less heat and more timing...
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoMiEzMX-5 View Post
expect to see a 30% raise in fuel demands with e85. Ive tuned a few dsms running ECMlink and e85 with large injectors in the upper 11's on the wideband. You can run it, but just be sure that your fueling hardware can support the increase in fuel demand.

But like other have stated, the stock rods can be a hindrance with excessive cylinder pressures, along with other issues such as the rubber fuel linings sprouting leaks, etc...

Anyone else want to chime in? I would love to run e85 in my miata but ive got a lot of other things to purchase before i splurge on a FMU.

Nomie
The point is that if you change injectors can be expensive but if you use an AFPR should be way cheaper to do it (~$50-300 depending on what AFPR you choose).
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Old 12-10-2009, 01:55 PM   #9
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By the way I'm officially on E85 for the last few days... I'll tune the car with the V-mount and the E85 this Saturday and hopefully I'll get better results. I'm saying hopefully because the turbo (GT 2560) is already maxed out so I'm not expecting anything huge in max power, but maybe better spool up and torque.

I ended up getting the Injector Dynamics 1000cc/min from www.miataroadster.com (everything came with the right adapters for plug'n'play installation) and I'll probably also swap my beloved Walbro 190 HP for a 255 HP.

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Old 12-10-2009, 02:19 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_Power View Post
I ended up getting the Injector Dynamics 1000cc/min from MiataRoadster...STAY TUNED (everything came with the right adapters for plug'n'play installation)......
What did the injectors end up costing you and any reason why you didn't go directly through T1?
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Old 12-10-2009, 02:29 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by JayL View Post
What did the injectors end up costing you and any reason why you didn't go directly through T1?
I got a bit better deal (-5%) from Bill (MiataRoadster...STAY TUNED) and he re-assured me that will definitely work on the miata.
I got plugnplay clips which were expensive - so the totally was a whooping $500 (I think $505 or something). You can ask Bill but I think w/o the plugnplay plugs they should be around $400
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Old 12-10-2009, 02:39 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_Power View Post
By the way I'm officially on E85 for the last few days... I'll tune the car with the V-mount and the E85 this Saturday and hopefully I'll get better results. I'm saying hopefully because the turbo (GT 2560) is already maxed out so I'm not expecting anything huge in max power, but maybe better spool up and torque.

I ended up getting the Injector Dynamics 1000cc/min from MiataRoadster...STAY TUNED (everything came with the right adapters for plug'n'play installation) and I'll probably also swap my beloved Walbro 190 HP for a 255 HP.
What else can you tell us about your build? Define maxing out the 2560....
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Old 12-10-2009, 02:52 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by webby459 View Post
What else can you tell us about your build? Define maxing out the 2560....
I meant that the GT 2560 is made for applications up to 300-330 hp and the car made 287whp~310 hp at the crank.
I have one of the first prototypes of the new Begi Turbo IM and later on we realized that there was a boost leak from the area close to the TB - which I had it welded shut.
I'm not sure if the above event had to do something with the max PSI that we were looking at - but at the Dyno session the turbo couldn't flow more than 15.7 psi.
If I had a turbo that could go higher I would expect higher HP increase since I would be able to increase the boost due to the better qualities of the E85 vs 91 pump gas.

Very briefly my built consists of
94 bottom end 122K miles
99 head with a valve job (not oversized)
Begi Turbo intake manifold
Begi cast turbo manifold
Begi 3" separated gas DP
3" Cat less short exhaust
TDR IC w modified piping -> now in a V-mount set up
LINK ECU
RC 550cc-> now ID 1000cc
Walbro 190 HP-> Soon to be 255 HP
PWR Race rad-> Now stock Mazda Rad for lightness
Oil cooler hopefully to be installed before the Dyno session
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Old 12-10-2009, 03:38 PM   #14
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I will be damn close to your setup when my winter build is done, except I won't have vmount, I'll have a tubular mani and megasquirt. Oh, and I'll be all forged, not sure if yours is or not. Please report back after your dyno day, including injector duty cycles. You should be able to go after some very aggressive ignition mapping in the boost building cells, so your spool should be brilliant (I hope).
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Old 12-10-2009, 03:55 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by webby459 View Post
I will be damn close to your setup when my winter build is done, except I won't have vmount, I'll have a tubular mani and megasquirt. Oh, and I'll be all forged, not sure if yours is or not. Please report back after your dyno day, including injector duty cycles. You should be able to go after some very aggressive ignition mapping in the boost building cells, so your spool should be brilliant (I hope).
I also hope the same webby, the car is already a lot of fun to drive but faster spool up is always welcome
My engine is on stock internals so I'm walking on thin ice - some people advice to get a second block and started building it but probably I'll wait until I destroy this engine.

Here are the old Dyno results
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Old 12-10-2009, 10:26 PM   #16
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This:
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Plus this:
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= this:
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Name:  IMG_0336-1.jpg
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You must not be driving your car hard enough for the stock rods to hold up.
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Old 12-10-2009, 10:35 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thesnowboarder View Post
This:


Plus this:


= this:



You must not be driving your car hard enough for the stock rods to hold up.
I understand that the risk i great when you exceed 300 whp but I'm very surprised that you had this kind of catastrophic failure at "only" 240 whp... Was that due to detonation? Bad fuel or something? Did you have a knock sensor?
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Old 12-11-2009, 03:37 PM   #18
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Max Power, you are definitely on or over the hairy edge on the stock internals, maybe you want to turn the boost down after you do the tune?

What did you end up running for base fuel pressure? What afpr did you end up with? How do the ID 1000s idle? Did you do a before and after dyno with the Begi IM? I'll be running the stock '00 IM for a while, probably in for massive head and IM rework NEXT year, this year's build is killing me financially.

Thanks for the info.
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Old 12-11-2009, 06:38 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by webby459 View Post
Max Power, you are definitely on or over the hairy edge on the stock internals, maybe you want to turn the boost down after you do the tune?

What did you end up running for base fuel pressure? What afpr did you end up with? How do the ID 1000s idle? Did you do a before and after dyno with the Begi IM? I'll be running the stock '00 IM for a while, probably in for massive head and IM rework NEXT year, this year's build is killing me financially.

Thanks for the info.
Hi Webby
I agree that I'm probably above the limit... so I'll be very happy if the car doesn't explode at the dyno
I talked to FM regarding the reliability of the stock internals and the best AFPR and the answer that I got was:
1) If the tune is really good and there is no detonation the internals won't have a problem - the knock is what makes the rods break...
2) It's better not to go with a band-aid solution (AFPR) and to go with bigger injectors. That's what I did, I got the 1000cc injectors which should flow enough fuel with the stock FPR (so no AFPR for me at this time).
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Old 12-13-2009, 03:33 AM   #20
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Just came back from the dyno, the boost control was malfunctioning but at the end we set the boost manually at 17psi and with a little bit of tuning got 306 at the wheels.
Does anyone have a dynapack s/w that can read abg files?
I have an older dynapack version so I can only read abf files so now I can't see the graph...
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