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Old 08-08-2011, 06:56 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Savington View Post
WI is absolutely unnecessary with E85. If I can find MBT at 17psi and 350whp through the torque peak on E85, water injection is doing absolutely nothing for you.

E85 is magical ****.
I have great respect for what you do but.....
The fact that you can tune to MBT at 17psi/350whp doesn't address the effect of WI, whether it be good or bad.

When I become less lazy, I'll do multiple pulls with and without WI. I want to know definitively.

E85 isn't necessary at 220wph either, but it might make things more bulletproof. E85/WI might not be necessary, but it may provide an extra margin of safety, especially when making over Xwhp. Only way to tell is by testing. I need real data to make a conclusion.

My statement/question was addressing IAT's and the burn characteristics of E85.

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Originally Posted by triple88a View Post
So you guys ever figure out a way to tune the timing?
From the first post:
-E85 won't knock as easily as gas when you pass MBT. Tuning can't be done by ear or det can. It has to be done on a dyno or with an accelerometer.
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Old 08-08-2011, 07:11 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by dvcn View Post
I have great respect for what you do but.....
The fact that you can tune to MBT at 17psi/350whp doesn't address the effect of WI, whether it be good or bad.

When I become less lazy, I'll do multiple pulls with and without WI. I want to know definitively.


E85 isn't necessary at 220wph either, but it might make things more bulletproof. E85/WI might not be necessary, but it may provide an extra margin of safety, especially when making over Xwhp. Only way to tell is by testing. I need real data to make a conclusion.

My statement/question was addressing IAT's and the burn characteristics of E85.



From the first post:
-E85 won't knock as easily as gas when you pass MBT. Tuning can't be done by ear or det can. It has to be done on a dyno or with an accelerometer.
This, I think that just because extra detonation resistance is there with E85, doesn't mean that E85 is detonation proof. I know it is wonderful, but I want to see the difference too. Since my motor is about buttoned up, we could just use my car as the mule for this, especially since I will have the engine to handle it. At the same time, I don't want to build a motor that relies on WI. I think that at XXXwhp you would need water again, It will always cool the intake charge too. Water does in fact cool better than ethanol.
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Old 08-10-2011, 06:31 PM   #63
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Water does in fact cool better than ethanol.
This is true, where the debate comes in is how much extra will it give you. My Subaru runs on E85, and I had WI inconjunction along with it for a while. The car only made 6 more whp with the WI vs just E85. 417 vs 411. If you ask me, it wouldn't be worth the extra cost and complexity for a little gain.
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Old 08-10-2011, 10:45 PM   #64
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I don't get it. What SPECIFICALLY are you trying to achieve with the water injection? "More safety" is not specific- do you want more detonation resistance, lower egts, lower iats, or something else? The fact that I can run MBT+2deg at 240kpa and 300wtq clearly says that you do not need more det resistance, especially at 220whp. If you have excessive iat issues, get a bigger ic and duct it better. If you want lower egts, I'd like to know why, since I've seen reports of egts with e85 around 200*C lower.

So what am I missing, other than your desire to just do your own testing because you want to? Nothing wrong with that, but you make it sound like you're expecting to find some benefit in water+e85.
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Old 08-10-2011, 11:14 PM   #65
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Anyways guys just got my emissions papers so i guess i gotta switch back to gasoline and all the emissions crap. Eh what the hell i guess i'll try running with stock injectors after that bs is over with.
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Old 08-11-2011, 12:14 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by Savington View Post

I don't get it. What SPECIFICALLY are you trying to achieve with the water injection? "More safety" is not specific- do you want more detonation resistance, lower egts, lower iats, or something else? The fact that I can run MBT+2deg at 240kpa and 300wtq clearly says that you do not need more det resistance, especially at 220whp. If you have excessive iat issues, get a bigger ic and duct it better. If you want lower egts, I'd like to know why, since I've seen reports of egts with e85 around 200*C lower.

So what am I missing, other than your desire to just do your own testing because you want to? Nothing wrong with that, but you make it sound like you're expecting to find some benefit in water+e85.
I'm not looking for a pissing contest, I apologize for offending you.

WI may or may not be useless. The ONLY way to know is by looking at real data. Who knows, maybe with WI you can go a couple more degrees. Or, maybe it'll hurt power. I don't know. You don't know. Only real data will tell.

Again, my inquiry isn't about detonation but more about the nature of E85 and what IAT's that it likes. I have experienced that at sub 40F IAT's it doesn't light as easily. I'm guessing that 200F+ IAT's aren't optimal. I want to know what the optimal range is. That's all.

Part of this comes from the fact that I've seen more than a few turbo alcohol(not E85) drag cars running no intercooler. Makes me think that IAT's matter. (I know that E85 is not the same as pure ethanol or methanol)

WI is a method in which to control IAT's.
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Old 08-11-2011, 02:07 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by dvcn View Post
I'm not looking for a pissing contest, I apologize for offending you.
Not offended, just confused.

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WI may or may not be useless. The ONLY way to know is by looking at real data. Who knows, maybe with WI you can go a couple more degrees. Or, maybe it'll hurt power. I don't know. You don't know. Only real data will tell.
"go a couple more degrees" - do you understand what MBT is? It's the point at which adding more timing results in no additional power. If I can hit MBT, and then push 2 degrees PAST it, at 5psi and over 100wtq more, and still see no detonation, then water injection will not let you "go a couple more degrees". That's as real as data can get - when I first tuned my car on E85 at 17psi, at 18* I made 348whp, at 20* it's 351whp, at 22* it's 345whp. If it's not pinging at 22*, and it makes more power at 20*, what is water going to do?

If you think that the water will alter the burn rate, effectively retard the timing, and allow you to advance further and possibly make some more power, then say that - arguing that it will add safety to a non-WI E85 setup is like advocating for condom use during masturbation - sure, it's safer, but it's also totally and utterly unnecessary.

Quote:
Again, my inquiry isn't about detonation but more about the nature of E85 and what IAT's that it likes. I have experienced that at sub 40F IAT's it doesn't light as easily. I'm guessing that 200F+ IAT's aren't optimal. I want to know what the optimal range is. That's all.

Part of this comes from the fact that I've seen more than a few turbo alcohol(not E85) drag cars running no intercooler. Makes me think that IAT's matter. (I know that E85 is not the same as pure ethanol or methanol)

WI is a method in which to control IAT's.
First off, in my not-so-humble opinion, WI is a shitty way to control IATs. The only shittier way is fuel injection. If you have an IAT problem, get a bigger intercooler or locate your intake better.

Second, looking at alcohol-powered dragsters with no ICs and immediately going to "IATs matter" is IMO too simplistic (BTW, there are E85 Supra drag guys that are foregoing ICs as well.) You have to consider the flow dynamics of an intercooler at those kinds of power levels (some of those cars are moving nearly 2000lbs/min of air), pressure drop, packaging restrictions, etc.

If you're going to play with the effects of various IATs using E85, then say so. That's a perfectly reasonable set of tests to do, and I'd like to see the results. I was confused because you were dismissing my older results by saying that water could "add more safety" to the system, when the core conclusion from my tests and the conclusions I shared was that no additional safety would even be beneficial, let alone required.

I had a water injection system for about a year in my black car - when I switched to E85, I removed it and sold it. The system weighed about 20lbs including the 2.5 gallon water tank and 2 gallons of water, so in my case the added hassle of filling the tank with water, the weight penalty, and the added failure point made removing the system a no-brainer.

What do you do with your car? DD, drag race, autox, track use, combination of those?
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Old 08-11-2011, 08:48 AM   #68
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I work for a fuels dist and I just sold 5 55gal drums filled with 46gal of pure(>98.5%) ethanol, and 8gal of 110 octane racing fuel to a guy with BUILT Subie.... Is he on to something, or are there any benifits to this?
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Old 08-11-2011, 10:57 AM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Savington View Post
Not offended, just confused.



"go a couple more degrees" - do you understand what MBT is? It's the point at which adding more timing results in no additional power. If I can hit MBT, and then push 2 degrees PAST it, at 5psi and over 100wtq more, and still see no detonation, then water injection will not let you "go a couple more degrees". That's as real as data can get - when I first tuned my car on E85 at 17psi, at 18* I made 348whp, at 20* it's 351whp, at 22* it's 345whp. If it's not pinging at 22*, and it makes more power at 20*, what is water going to do?

If you think that the water will alter the burn rate, effectively retard the timing, and allow you to advance further and possibly make some more power, then say that - arguing that it will add safety to a non-WI E85 setup is like advocating for condom use during masturbation - sure, it's safer, but it's also totally and utterly unnecessary.



First off, in my not-so-humble opinion, WI is a shitty way to control IATs. The only shittier way is fuel injection. If you have an IAT problem, get a bigger intercooler or locate your intake better.

Second, looking at alcohol-powered dragsters with no ICs and immediately going to "IATs matter" is IMO too simplistic (BTW, there are E85 Supra drag guys that are foregoing ICs as well.) You have to consider the flow dynamics of an intercooler at those kinds of power levels (some of those cars are moving nearly 2000lbs/min of air), pressure drop, packaging restrictions, etc.

If you're going to play with the effects of various IATs using E85, then say so. That's a perfectly reasonable set of tests to do, and I'd like to see the results. I was confused because you were dismissing my older results by saying that water could "add more safety" to the system, when the core conclusion from my tests and the conclusions I shared was that no additional safety would even be beneficial, let alone required.

I had a water injection system for about a year in my black car - when I switched to E85, I removed it and sold it. The system weighed about 20lbs including the 2.5 gallon water tank and 2 gallons of water, so in my case the added hassle of filling the tank with water, the weight penalty, and the added failure point made removing the system a no-brainer.

What do you do with your car? DD, drag race, autox, track use, combination of those?
I 100% understand what you are saying. I understand that you are safely making a lot of power.

I'm no expert but isn't MBT related to a nuber of factors? Pretty sure octane and IAT's matter - along with many other variables. You hit MBT at 20. Let's say you tune with 93 octane and you hit MBT at 16. That would probably mean a reduction in power. What if you could do something(race gas, pure alcohol) to get MBT at 22? Possibly increase power? Yes.

If you added WI you might be able to run more timing. You might not. I don't know. The fact that you make [email protected] doesn't mean that you know.

If a 1500whp+ Supra doesn't need an intercooler, why does a 351whp Miata need one? Seriously, maybe your car doesn't need an intercooler. How do you know that it does? As you said, you can lose weight and gain throttle response. I'm not completely being an *** about this point. I would love to toss my intercooler. During the initial install I ran sans IC. The throttle response was awesome.

I am NOT an expert. That is why I posted my inquiry, which was:
What IAT's is E85 most happy with?
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Old 08-11-2011, 11:08 AM   #70
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FYI(to E85 noobs)-

The ethanol content of E85 can legally vary between 70%-85%. Without a method to test the fuel, you just don't know what the actual mix is.

MBT will happen at a different point running 70% vs 85%. Just an FYI.
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Old 08-13-2011, 02:32 AM   #71
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MBT will vary with the flame speed, and with the octane too (but not as much). The goal is to light the mixture at around 20*btdc, in order to get peak pressure at around 10*atdc. If you can switch fuels and end up finding mbt at 22* instead of 20*, you found/lost power on the energy content of the fuel, not on the additional timing. I'm not sure what a cooler combustion chamber will do for flame front speed - probably not a whole lot assuming you aren't getting detonation.

That's why your "water let's you run more timing" argument is flawed - I can run more timing without water, but I don't want or need to. If the water slows the flame front and "lets you add timing", you found that power on efficiency, not timing. Most folks don't find appreciable power on just the water injection, so you may be disappointed too.

As far as intercoolers go, I know I need one because I can see my iats fluctuate on track depending on how long of a pull I am doing/just did.
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Old 08-15-2011, 09:40 AM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Savington View Post

MBT will vary with the flame speed, and with the octane too (but not as much). The goal is to light the mixture at around 20*btdc, in order to get peak pressure at around 10*atdc. If you can switch fuels and end up finding mbt at 22* instead of 20*, you found/lost power on the energy content of the fuel, not on the additional timing. I'm not sure what a cooler combustion chamber will do for flame front speed - probably not a whole lot assuming you aren't getting detonation.

That's why your "water let's you run more timing" argument is flawed - I can run more timing without water, but I don't want or need to. If the water slows the flame front and "lets you add timing", you found that power on efficiency, not timing. Most folks don't find appreciable power on just the water injection, so you may be disappointed too.

As far as intercoolers go, I know I need one because I can see my iats fluctuate on track depending on how long of a pull I am doing/just did.
Again......
You might be 100% right.

Actually, you may have some of the answers I'm looking for. What are your IAT's on track? At the higher IAT's do you notice any difference in power vs lower IAT's? What were your IAT's on the dyno?
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Old 08-17-2011, 08:03 PM   #73
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So i've gone back to 93 for emissions and possibly the winter since i need a reliable starter every cold mourning, At the gas station i loaded my original map. At first i didnt think about the ethanol still in the lines however after a minute i added 15% to the master fuel of my old gasoline map and it fired right up and its running good. Long story short dont forget about it when you gotta switch back.
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Old 08-17-2011, 11:18 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by dvcn View Post
Again......
You might be 100% right.

Actually, you may have some of the answers I'm looking for. What are your IAT's on track? At the higher IAT's do you notice any difference in power vs lower IAT's? What were your IAT's on the dyno?
On 100*F days, a max of 135*F at the end of the straightaway. Minimum of 122*F through low-boost sections. Don't have the datalogs from the dyno handy, but they are probably lower than the track IATs.

As far as power vs. IATs, there's a correlation, just the same as there would be with gasoline. The 100-120mph sprint in my car is the easiest one to compare, since it's all 5th gear, no shifts, no wheelspin, and it happens on flat ground at a lot of the tracks I go to. Here are a few examples I pulled from the last 3 weeks, from best to worst:

2.80s: Willow Springs, 2300ft altitude, ~180kpa, 106-108* IAT
2.94s: Buttonwillow, 150ft altitude, ~190kpa, 111-115* IAT
2.95s: Thunderhill, 210ft altitude, ~185kpa, 102-108* IAT
3.11s: Buttonwillow, 150ft altitude, ~190kpa, 127-131* IAT
3.41s: Willow Springs, 2300ft altitude, ~180kpa, 124-127* IAT

So higher power with lower IATs, which is not really news to us. In my car, there's a direct correlation between IATs and ambient temps - the 100-110* IATs come from 80*F ambient, the 125*+ IATs are 100*+ ambient.
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Old 08-19-2011, 11:25 PM   #75
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Thanks for the data!

When the weather cools off can you post more info? I assume you don't run if it's too cold out.

While searching I've found many >1,000whp E85 cars with IAT's over 200F.
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Old 08-23-2011, 06:44 PM   #76
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Savington-

Did you also log the afr's and timing on those runs? I don't know if you have temperature compensation going on or if timing and fuel are the same on all of those runs.

Thanks!
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Old 08-24-2011, 09:50 PM   #77
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I have AFR traces but I have been having a lot of trouble getting the wideband to hold up to the heat so the data is junk. I've been meaning to call Innovate and work it out but I've been a little lazy on that. No timing traces, but I don't use any temperature corrections - it's ~21deg at 12psi and ~19deg at 14psi, with a bit less than that through the torque peak (4-5k).
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Old 03-08-2012, 12:25 PM   #78
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Default Easy method to test alcohol content of E85

(mods- I'd like to add this to the first post)

From Paul Yaw. Please support him by buying ID injectors. He has been providing free (valuable)technical information for a very long time. This is a great article on E85. At the bottom of the page is a simple method for testing the alcohol content.

http://www.injectordynamics.com/AlcoholArticle.html


The Baby Bottle Method

When I was a kid, baby bottles looked like this. They were made of glass, with graduations on the side. Now they're made of plastic and have pictures of unicorns and retarded dinosaurs. Point is, they could be used to determine the alcohol content of fuel.

Let me explain...

Water mixes with ethanol. Water does not mix with gasoline. E85, and all oxygenated gasoline is blended with co-solvents so that the gasoline does not separate from the alcohol if it absorbs a bit of moisture. If you add enough water these co-solvents can't keep up, and the water saturated alcohol separates from the fuel.

Figure it out yet?

Alright, let me spell it out.

Get yourself a graduated cylinder, and put a measured amount of fuel in it. Let's say 100cc's. Then add a substantial amount of water. Let's say 30cc's. Now, cover the container and shake the ---- out of it.

Let it settle for a few minutes and watch in amazement as the water saturated alcohol settles to the bottom and the gasoline floats to the top, leaving a clear distinct line between the two.

First, make sure you still have 130cc's of fluid, than do some basic math. In this case, if we have 110cc's of water saturated fluid at the bottom of the cylinder, we can calculate the total alcohol content. We added 30cc's of water, so the remaining 80cc's must be alcohol. And 80cc's out of 100 is 80%. Voila!

Want a few pictures and a clearer description?

Send me an email.

It's 10 minutes to 7:00 on a Friday night, and I want to get home for dinner. Enjoy, and if you need a better explanation of the baby bottle method, let me know.

Thanks for reading.

Paul Yaw
Injector Dynamics
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Old 03-09-2012, 05:13 PM   #79
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Hah was about to search for this thread as i'm switching back to E85 this tank
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Old 10-10-2012, 02:18 PM   #80
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Regional info on E85 blends: summer, spring/fall & winter.

E85 Mustangs.com - Regional Fuel Chart by state
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