Engine: CLANK CLANK CLANK CLANK - Miata Turbo Forum - Boost cars, acquire cats.

Welcome to Miataturbo.net   Members
 


Engine Performance This section is for discussion on all engine building related questions.
Sponsored by:
Sponsored by:

Reply
 
 
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 04-19-2010, 11:32 PM   #1
Elite Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (24)
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Cypress, TX
Posts: 3,778
Total Cats: 35
Default Engine: CLANK CLANK CLANK CLANK

This is my freshly rebuilt motor. It's been exhibiting this sound since I've had it up and running. It's only audible inside the car if the the top is up, so it's not very loud, but noticeable. At first, I thought it was from excess valve clearances, but I have those sorted now.

The motor is a 2.0 with Pauter rods and Wiseco 9:1 pistons.

Have a listen. These recordings were made with Jeff's det can mic and a digital voice recorder, with the mic clamped to the passenger side engine mount.

In the first one, you can hear a click click click every second or so. This is with the engine cold.

In the second one, you can hear it any time the engine is under the load of acceleration and idle, but not when cruising or decelerating. This is with the engine fully warmed up.

The third one is taken with the onboard mic, showing what it sounds like with the top down.

Whaddya think?

Change the file extensions to .WMA if you want them to work.
Attached Files
File Type: vex DS300081.vex (318.1 KB, 140 views)
File Type: vex DS300083.vex (1.32 MB, 106 views)
File Type: vex DS300084.vex (503.2 KB, 133 views)
Bryce is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2010, 11:41 PM   #2
Elite Member
iTrader: (3)
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Houston
Posts: 2,904
Total Cats: 4
Default

Is the noise on cylinder 3 gone now that you adjusted the lifters
Pitlab77 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-20-2010, 12:55 AM   #3
Elite Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (24)
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Cypress, TX
Posts: 3,778
Total Cats: 35
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pitlab77 View Post
Is the noise on cylinder 3 gone now that you adjusted the lifters
Nope, that noise is still there. It seems to be coming from cylinder 3, louder on the block than the head now that I have the det can mounted down there.

Everything on the head is torqued correctly, and all the valve clearances are within spec.

I'll be calling the machine shop tomorrow to hopefully drive it down there and see what they think.
Bryce is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-20-2010, 09:54 AM   #4
Tour de Franzia
iTrader: (6)
 
hustler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Republic of Dallas
Posts: 29,114
Total Cats: 351
Default

are your cam gears tight? Mine made the death noise again and luckily it was just a loose intake cam gear.

What is your lifter clearance and I assume you have a 99-head? I know you checked it, but there is a difference between "spec" and what really works on the solid lifter head.

Check the torque on the cam caps too.
hustler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-20-2010, 10:21 AM   #5
Elite Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (24)
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Cypress, TX
Posts: 3,778
Total Cats: 35
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by hustler View Post
are your cam gears tight? Mine made the death noise again and luckily it was just a loose intake cam gear.

What is your lifter clearance and I assume you have a 99-head? I know you checked it, but there is a difference between "spec" and what really works on the solid lifter head.

Check the torque on the cam caps too.
Guess I didn't mention it is a 99 head. I double-checked torque on everything when juggling shims when I had the cams out. Speaking of, that's the first times I've pulled cams off of a motor ever. It was quite enjoyable, and nice to see exactly what (who) is doing what (who) in the head.

Actual clearances were (off the top of my head) around .2mm on the intake and .33mm on the exhaust sides. I had one that was .16mm on the intake and and another at .35mm on the exhaust that I made adjustments to. What do you aim for?

It's definitely coming from the bottom end. I don't think the slightly loose valve clearance on the exhaust side was adding any extra noise actually.
Bryce is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2010, 02:43 AM   #6
Elite Member
iTrader: (15)
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Incline Village, NV
Posts: 2,073
Total Cats: 5
Default

I think hustler has his pretty tight, .003 IIRC, i have .008 on the intake side, and .012 on the exhaust side of my 99 head. The head is very quite with these specs.

Edit, i just realized you posted in mm and i posted my reply in inches. So:

.008 inches = 0.2032mm
.012 inches = 0.3048mm

I think the FSM states:
IN: 0.18—0.24 mm {0.008—0.009 in}
EX: 0.28—0.34 mm {0.012—0.013 in}

Conversion chart:
http://mdmetric.com/tech/cvtcht.htm
thesnowboarder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-30-2010, 11:26 AM   #7
Elite Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (24)
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Cypress, TX
Posts: 3,778
Total Cats: 35
Default

After adjusting the clearances on 4 valves, the head seems no less noisier actually. It's actually pretty quiet for solid lifters compared to well-functioning HLAs. No tapping sounds. The fuel injectors are noisier.

Compression test yields 160 psi across all 4 cylinders. This is a 9:1 motor.

When I cut spark to cylinder 2 at idle, the knock gets louder. I think it could be a loose wrist pin, but who knows, it was just rebuilt.

The motor will be coming back out and going back to the builder to have it checked out again. Just a minor setback.

I'll update here what the cause was.
Bryce is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-30-2010, 12:08 PM   #8
Tour de Franzia
iTrader: (6)
 
hustler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Republic of Dallas
Posts: 29,114
Total Cats: 351
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by thesnowboarder View Post
I think the FSM states:
IN: 0.180.24 mm {0.0080.009 in}
EX: 0.280.34 mm {0.0120.013 in}
You are correct that this is in the FSM. However, its not right in my experience. My builder set mine at .004 on the intake, .009 on the exhaust. My head is silent, its nice.

When I discovered my lifter problem I grabbed a big *** crow bar and put it on my temple to listen for the kock. It was not in the block, it was in the head and I could hear which cylinder and which side it was on. Everyone told me it was a spun rod bearing, including the guys at the dyno shop.
hustler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2010, 03:31 AM   #9
Elite Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (24)
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Cypress, TX
Posts: 3,778
Total Cats: 35
Default

Name:  DSC_0482.jpg
Views: 1
Size:  77.8 KB
Name:  DSC_0480.jpg
Views: 1
Size:  59.2 KB
Name:  DSC_0479.jpg
Views: 1
Size:  71.1 KB
Name:  DSC_0478.jpg
Views: 1
Size:  73.5 KB
Name:  DSC_0477.jpg
Views: 1
Size:  65.6 KB
Name:  DSC_0476.jpg
Views: 1
Size:  85.0 KB
Name:  DSC_0475.jpg
Views: 1
Size:  58.1 KB

Did I say Wiseco? I meant JE pistons.
Bryce is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2010, 05:33 AM   #10
Supporting Vendor
iTrader: (31)
 
Savington's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Sunnyvale, CA
Posts: 14,362
Total Cats: 1,323
Default

That looks to me like pretty severe detonation.
Savington is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2010, 05:46 AM   #11
Elite Member
iTrader: (24)
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Sherman Oaks, CA
Posts: 4,481
Total Cats: 3
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by savington View Post
that looks to me like pretty severe detonation.
+1
UrbanSoot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2010, 05:51 AM   #12
Elite Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (24)
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Cypress, TX
Posts: 3,778
Total Cats: 35
Default

That's what I thought. But this is with no turbo, base timing map, and pretty rich fuel map under break-in conditions. So I'm sending the fuel injectors off to get cleaned and flow tested. If those results come up fine, I don't know what the hell happened to this piston.

Can it be agreed upon that this is the cause of the knocking sound?
Bryce is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2010, 08:54 AM   #13
Junior Member
iTrader: (5)
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Gay Area, CA
Posts: 220
Total Cats: 6
Default

^^ That sounds like the culprit. Do you by any chance know what your piston to cylinder wall clearances were?

Your problem & sound could have been that piston being too loose & "slapping".

The pistons' rings & ringlands don't look nasty enough to have been severe detonation.
Import Al is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2010, 02:04 PM   #14
Elite Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (24)
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Cypress, TX
Posts: 3,778
Total Cats: 35
Default

No idea on the piston to cylinder wall clearances, but the shop is competent enough that they would have checked it.

There is a little bit of pitting on top near the melted edge.

They gave the block and bearings a clean bill of health. Its a good thing I caught this early. I'll be putting this back in the car over the next week.
Bryce is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2010, 08:18 PM   #15
Junior Member
iTrader: (5)
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Northbrook IL
Posts: 105
Total Cats: 0
Default

mine was a little worse
Attached Thumbnails
Engine: CLANK CLANK CLANK CLANK-piston.jpg  
dima88 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2010, 10:42 PM   #16
Elite Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 6,454
Total Cats: 80
Default

The vibration damper may be worn out and the timing marks shifted, thus making you set the timing much more advanced than you think.
JasonC SBB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2011, 07:02 PM   #17
Elite Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (24)
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Cypress, TX
Posts: 3,778
Total Cats: 35
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JasonC SBB View Post
The vibration damper may be worn out and the timing marks shifted, thus making you set the timing much more advanced than you think.
It was a new damper.

There's no way this happened to the piston while it was in my possession. I won't be taking anything to that shop in the future. In fact, I won't be taking anything to a shop unless it needs machine work. I'd only need a few extra tools to rebuild a block myself. It would be worth my time and effort just to know that my pistons look ok. Hell, right now I'd feel better if I tore into the block to inspect the other pistons with my own eyes.

Did I say the motor would be back in over the next week? I meant 7 months.


No more knocking sounds besides my noisy 99 head. Valve lash will be readjusted to slightly tighter specs (thanks snowboarder and hustler) when I do the exhintake mod.
Bryce is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2011, 08:36 PM   #18
Elite Member
iTrader: (11)
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 2,982
Total Cats: 10
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryce View Post
It was a new damper.

There's no way this happened to the piston while it was in my possession. I won't be taking anything to that shop in the future. In fact, I won't be taking anything to a shop unless it needs machine work.
I detune my car if I take it to the shop.
miatauser884 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2011, 09:02 PM   #19
Elite Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (24)
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Cypress, TX
Posts: 3,778
Total Cats: 35
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by djp0623 View Post
I detune my car if I take it to the shop.
I would never ever ever ever pay somebody to remove the engine, even it if does take me several months to get off my *** and put it back in. I wouldn't take it to a shop for any reason.

Wait, I do take it to a shop to get it aligned, but I'm the one who drives it onto the rack.
Bryce is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2011, 09:20 PM   #20
Senior Member
iTrader: (4)
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Toronto, ON
Posts: 1,479
Total Cats: 6
Default

I set my rev limiter to 2500 rpm the one time I took mine to a shop.

What did the builder say in the end? I guess you were just SOL?
dgmorr is offline   Reply With Quote
 
 
Reply

Related Topics
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
ArtieParty's 95 ABSURDflow Miata ArtieParty Media 15 03-31-2010 02:02 PM
the parts to complete my project mtl_miata General Miata Chat 38 01-19-2010 05:35 PM
Holy project batman! TrackTestedMiata MSPNP 6 01-14-2009 09:10 PM
Slow Supra KPLAFIN Insert BS here 30 11-02-2008 05:29 PM
Race VW GTI for sale - SoCal UrbanSoot Cars for sale/trade 5 03-31-2008 07:16 PM


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:42 PM.