FIC (Fuel Injector Clinic) vs Injector Dynamics - Page 3 - Miata Turbo Forum - Boost cars, acquire cats.

Welcome to Miataturbo.net   Members
 


Engine Performance This section is for discussion on all engine building related questions.
Sponsored by:
Sponsored by:

Reply
 
 
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 03-12-2013, 04:05 PM   #41
Tour de Franzia
iTrader: (6)
 
hustler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Republic of Dallas
Posts: 29,114
Total Cats: 351
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DoapParts View Post
As stated above we have used Both ID injectors and Fuel injector clinic injectors many times. In both personal an customer cars.
We don't offer injector testing or developing, nor have we ever claimed to.
Ah, the third sentence I quoted is ambiguous. Sorry for the confusion.
hustler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-2013, 04:23 PM   #42
Elite Member
iTrader: (6)
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Lebanon, TN
Posts: 1,668
Total Cats: 63
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Savington View Post
I read that a few months ago and came to the conclusion with some digging that Fuel Injector Connection is garbage and Fuel Injector Clinic are not. While not AS nice as ID they may be more than enough for most. Keep in mind I have no idea what the specs mean for any of these companies. Only research into who seems to have good quality stuff.
TorqueZombie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-2013, 04:28 PM   #43
I'm Miserable!
iTrader: (13)
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 255
Total Cats: 0
Default

No need need to be Sorry I am glad I can clarify.
Both ID Injectors and Fuel injector Clinic injectors are great.

I just wanted to point out that FUEL INJECTOR CONNECTION is different from FUEL INJECTOR CLINIC.

I try my absolute best to sell products that I would use on my car.
Fuel injector connection IS NOT a product that I sell.
DoapParts is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-2013, 05:28 PM   #44
Elite Member
iTrader: (6)
 
blaen99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 4,112
Total Cats: 27
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DoapParts View Post
No need need to be Sorry I am glad I can clarify.
Both ID Injectors and Fuel injector Clinic injectors are great.

I just wanted to point out that FUEL INJECTOR CONNECTION is different from FUEL INJECTOR CLINIC.

I try my absolute best to sell products that I would use on my car.
Fuel injector connection IS NOT a product that I sell.
Holy crap DOAP. You just explained the huge ID vs. FIC fight I see all over the web.

Fuel Injector Clinic is great, it's connection that are teh shady SOBs it appears after some research that answers a lot of wtfs I was having on this topic.
blaen99 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-2013, 05:32 PM   #45
Supporting Vendor
iTrader: (31)
 
Savington's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Sunnyvale, CA
Posts: 14,372
Total Cats: 1,334
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DoapParts View Post
I just wanted to point out that FUEL INJECTOR CONNECTION is different from FUEL INJECTOR CLINIC.
Good to know. I see at least one reference (Ben91) to Jon Banner at Fuel Injector Connection (i.e. the shady guys) so it's worth differentiating between them to avoid confusion.

Anyone have low-DC matching data for their FIClinic injectors?
Savington is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-2013, 06:23 PM   #46
Tour de Franzia
iTrader: (6)
 
hustler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Republic of Dallas
Posts: 29,114
Total Cats: 351
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Savington View Post
I am more familiar with the KY Konnection
I've never seen the socialist release of this adult film.
hustler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-2013, 06:47 PM   #47
Destroyer of Inconel
iTrader: (37)
 
EO2K's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In ur driveway, abusin' ur WPA
Posts: 9,642
Total Cats: 954
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Savington View Post
Anyone have low-DC matching data for their FIClinic injectors?
Who does this kind of testing and what does it cost? Link to trusted service provider?
EO2K is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-2013, 07:03 PM   #48
Supporting Vendor
iTrader: (31)
 
Savington's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Sunnyvale, CA
Posts: 14,372
Total Cats: 1,334
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by EO2K View Post
Who does this kind of testing and what does it cost? Link to trusted service provider?
AFAIK only ID does it, which is why I want to see if anyone's found data from FIClinic.

Low-DC matching is critical because EV14s are all over the place out of the box. This data is for ID2000s, but the point is the same.

100 injectors, every 10th one tested:



Think a car will idle right with that much difference between cylinders at low DC?

Here's a set of 6 that have been dynamically matched (high and low DC):



That's why dynamic matching matters.

Injector Dynamics - Does Dynamic Matching Matter?
Attached Thumbnails
FIC (Fuel Injector Clinic) vs Injector Dynamics-2000_spread.jpg   FIC (Fuel Injector Clinic) vs Injector Dynamics-2000_matched.jpg  
Savington is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-2013, 07:42 PM   #49
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Martin, Slovakia
Posts: 513
Total Cats: 71
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by EO2K View Post
And while that's great, what are you going to do with a OEM 230cc EV14 injector?

We know EV14s are the ****. If there was a drop-in Bosch/Volkswagen PN for 600-900-1200cc injector you know we'd all be running them. The point is that Bosch didn't bless us with big *** EV14s so we have to get modified ones.
There are no drop in ev14s afaik, all of them have to use adapters of some sort, even the modified ones. A 700 cc size is produced by bosch under part number 0-280-158-040. http://www.bosch-motorsport.de/en-US...2775993867.pdf
(There are larger sizes also but for CNG and snowmobile applications which are probably used as the base injectors for high flow modified injectors.)
If you only need injectors in the 550cc range there are several options that while not being drop in can be made to fit, ford GT500 M-9593-LU47 injectors being an example. Ford Racing 47 lb/hr EV6 Fuel Injectors - Set of 8 - Home for your Ford Mustang
sturovo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-2013, 07:53 PM   #50
Elite Member
iTrader: (2)
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Indianapolis
Posts: 3,325
Total Cats: 235
Default

That says EV14 in the description, but it seems like an EV6 price like the title says.
thenuge26 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-2013, 08:11 PM   #51
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Martin, Slovakia
Posts: 513
Total Cats: 71
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by thenuge26 View Post
That says EV14 in the description, but it seems like an EV6 price like the title says.
It must be a typo as the body is ev14. FORD RACING 47 LB/HR FUEL INJECTOR SET - Livernois Motorsports
Interestingly 8 of these injectors make 624 hp?
sturovo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-2013, 08:43 PM   #52
Destroyer of Inconel
iTrader: (37)
 
EO2K's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In ur driveway, abusin' ur WPA
Posts: 9,642
Total Cats: 954
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Savington View Post
AFAIK only ID does it, which is why I want to see if anyone's found data from FIClinic.

Low-DC matching is critical because EV14s are all over the place out of the box. This data is for ID2000s, but the point is the same.

That's why dynamic matching matters.

Injector Dynamics - Does Dynamic Matching Matter?
That's an impressive chart. It certainly pays to buy in bulk and do your own testing. At such low pulsewidths, that's going to be A LOT of variation in volume with a 2000cc injector. I understand why you preach ID, and how you manage to get a better than stock idle with and injector that flows 10x more than stock.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sturovo View Post
There are no drop in ev14s afaik, all of them have to use adapters of some sort, even the modified ones. A 700 cc size is produced by bosch under part number 0-280-158-040. http://www.bosch-motorsport.de/en-US...2775993867.pdf
(There are larger sizes also but for CNG and snowmobile applications which are probably used as the base injectors for high flow modified injectors.)
If you only need injectors in the 550cc range there are several options that while not being drop in can be made to fit, ford GT500 M-9593-LU47 injectors being an example. Ford Racing 47 lb/hr EV6 Fuel Injectors - Set of 8 - Home for your Ford Mustang
Like you say, they don't fit. Anyone make one of those aluminum hats to fit these Ford injectors into our fuel rails? Even if someone did, if we believe ID (and I'm not saying we have any reason not to) they aren't really that well matched from the factory anyway, at least for low duty cycle as the ID graph that Andrew posted indicates.

It sounds like the strength in the Injector Dynamics product lies in the level of consistency and testing across the entire range, rather than just matching the injectors for total flow.

I'd be very interested to see if any other company out there does similar dynamic testing.
EO2K is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-2013, 09:20 PM   #53
Elite Member
iTrader: (1)
 
Leafy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: NH
Posts: 9,093
Total Cats: 90
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sturovo View Post
There are no drop in ev14s afaik, all of them have to use adapters of some sort, even the modified ones. A 700 cc size is produced by bosch under part number 0-280-158-040. http://www.bosch-motorsport.de/en-US...2775993867.pdf
(There are larger sizes also but for CNG and snowmobile applications which are probably used as the base injectors for high flow modified injectors.)
If you only need injectors in the 550cc range there are several options that while not being drop in can be made to fit, ford GT500 M-9593-LU47 injectors being an example. Ford Racing 47 lb/hr EV6 Fuel Injectors - Set of 8 - Home for your Ford Mustang
Ahh you may be correct that they get used. From the information I've gathered, some of the ID1000s start as the GT500 injectors and get the flow limiter removed, the FICs start from a different injector. And basically everyone's 2000s are the CNG ones (which theoretically need the seals replaced to be e85 compatible). I do rate the multiple sources I found that info fairly low quality.

Last edited by Leafy; 03-13-2013 at 08:25 AM.
Leafy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-13-2013, 04:40 AM   #54
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Martin, Slovakia
Posts: 513
Total Cats: 71
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leafy View Post
From the information I've gathered, the ID1000s start as the GT500 injectors and get the flow limiter removed,
I guess the ID/FIC injectors are usually not based on the long body ev14s as they use adapters to correct the length. If you wanted to adapt 60mm ev14s (type used by Ford) to fit the miata fuel rail it is relatively straight forward as the overall length is compatible.



The plastic diameter at the injector neck needs to be reduced to 10mm and a couple of o rings need to be swapped but they fit ok.

Attached Thumbnails
FIC (Fuel Injector Clinic) vs Injector Dynamics-p1030288_zpscb45553e.jpg  
sturovo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2013, 03:41 PM   #55
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Martin, Slovakia
Posts: 513
Total Cats: 71
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by EO2K View Post
That's an impressive chart.
I am skeptical of marketing material.
The first chart indicates an error mean of -0.02 and standard deviation of 4.63 at 2ms pulse width using data points (5, 4.5, 4, 2.5, 1, -2.5, -2.7, -3, -9)
Been a while since I looked at statistics but assuming normal distribution, is the second charts < 1% error level probable?
Attached Thumbnails
FIC (Fuel Injector Clinic) vs Injector Dynamics-normal-inj.png  

Last edited by sturovo; 03-15-2013 at 04:53 AM. Reason: add sd calcs
sturovo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-15-2013, 01:31 AM   #56
Elite Member
iTrader: (6)
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Lebanon, TN
Posts: 1,668
Total Cats: 63
Default

So here is my summary of Sav's chart with high/low DC.

I stand in the yard and water my flowers with a garden hose. Water (fuel) is turned on all the way (fuel pump 60psi or whatever. Just a constant). Low DC is me trying to get an exact amount of water out by kinking the hose, letting go, and re-kinking it. Try one is .2l, try 2 is .4l, try 3 is .2l, the point is it's a hose and hard to eyeball a perfect amount. High DC is just letting the sucker pour out the open end. All the hoses (injectors) I can get from the store (ID) can flow the same as long as I buy the same size hose (ID1000s). The difference in low DC is their testing of the retard kinking the hose again and again? IE how accurate and repeatable I (the kid playing in the yard) can be. I may be more accurate and repeatable with the hose (ID1000's) than my neighbor with the same size hose (ID1000s) All the same type of hose from the store and bought from the same place. Just some variance in hose kinking or amount of fuel at idle.
TorqueZombie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2013, 09:22 PM   #57
Newb
iTrader: (1)
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 22
Total Cats: 0
Default

sturovo - I'm starting to drink your koolaid.

From what I'm reading, a set of unmodified unmatched ev14 injectors will be as well or better balanced than matched modified ev14 injectors. Keeping the atomization plate should be a plus too.

Can you speak more to your GT500 injector experiences and modifications? Specific hardware, what works/didn't work? It looks like one could easily save a couple hundred depending on their flow needs.

Spec sheet:
http://www.fordracingparts.com/parts...-9593-lu47.pdf

Looks like there are options for up to about 900cc

FORD RACING 47 LB/HR FUEL INJECTOR SET | Part Details for M-9593-LU47* | Ford Racing Performance Parts

Edit:
Why are ID's deadtime so much better? Ford's slope min/max deviation is significantly better, even accounting for max flow rate.
http://www.injectordynamics.com/ID10...02-24-2011.pdf

Last edited by meowmeows; 04-11-2013 at 09:38 PM. Reason: reworded 2nd line to make clearer
meowmeows is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2013, 09:24 PM   #58
Murderator
iTrader: (76)
 
18psi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 36,206
Total Cats: 2,587
Default

Quote:
From what I'm reading, a set of unmodified ev14 injectors will be as well or better balanced than matched ev14 injectors. Keeping the atomization plate should be a plus too.
where did you read that?
aside from "his coolaid"
18psi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2013, 09:31 PM   #59
Newb
iTrader: (1)
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 22
Total Cats: 0
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 18psi View Post
where did you read that?
aside from "his coolaid"
Page 5 of http://www.injectordynamics.com/WhosGettingDrilled.pdf

The other graphs on ID's site seem to be modified vs modified injectors. Granted, this is a sample of one set, but it's interesting data from a third party on ID's site.
meowmeows is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-13-2013, 06:28 PM   #60
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Martin, Slovakia
Posts: 513
Total Cats: 71
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by meowmeows View Post
Can you speak more to your GT500 injector experiences and modifications? Specific hardware, what works/didn't work?
meowmeows, I have not yet fitted GT500 specific injectors but have modified other long body (60 mm) ev14 ford injectors to fit the mx5.

[IMG][/IMG]

Any of the long body ev14's should fit in the same way as the dimensions are identical. (I ended up using only one o ring at the fuel rail connection as it was way tight with 2.)
Attached Thumbnails
FIC (Fuel Injector Clinic) vs Injector Dynamics-p10209272.jpg  
sturovo is offline   Reply With Quote
 
 
Reply

Related Topics
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Project Gemini - Turbo Civic on the Cheap Full_Tilt_Boogie Build Threads 59 12-15-2017 09:00 PM
Changing from 460cc to flow force 610cc in diypnp 90 Turbo MEGAsquirt 19 10-19-2015 04:23 PM
Going back to stock. Need some 1.6 parts. Trent WTB 2 10-01-2015 01:15 PM
Time to start learning and play with tuning The Gleas MEGAsquirt 3 10-01-2015 10:30 AM
Walbro 255lph Fuel Pump $50 lsc224 Miata parts for sale/trade 2 10-01-2015 10:17 AM


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:02 AM.