FIC (Fuel Injector Clinic) vs Injector Dynamics - Page 2 - Miata Turbo Forum - Boost cars, acquire cats.

Welcome to Miataturbo.net   Members
 


Engine Performance This section is for discussion on all engine building related questions.
Sponsored by:
Sponsored by:

Reply
 
 
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 03-11-2013, 04:14 PM   #21
Supporting Vendor
iTrader: (31)
 
Savington's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Sunnyvale, CA
Posts: 14,365
Total Cats: 1,326
Default

Does FIC publish linearity data or low-duty cycle matching data?
Savington is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2013, 04:46 PM   #22
Elite Member
iTrader: (9)
 
TurboTim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Chesterfield, NJ
Posts: 6,485
Total Cats: 248
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Savington View Post
Does FIC publish linearity data or low-duty cycle matching data?
You use that data with the AEM how?

My Deautschwerks ~650cc EV14's came with the battery volt offset curve that I typed into my series 1 AEM EMS. Idles fine obviously. They cam with another graph too but I forget what that showed.

EDIT: I see this basic info is now available on their website.

The tips of my injectors look a little scary. Like someone 'machined' them with a dull tool. I have not been able to find a good google picture of the end of a EV14 nozzle to see if it's like that from Bosch or was done in the process of making it higher flow.
TurboTim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2013, 04:56 PM   #23
Senior Member
iTrader: (8)
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Raleigh, NC
Posts: 617
Total Cats: 53
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TurboTim View Post
The tips of my injectors look a little scary. Like someone 'machined' them with a dull tool. I have not been able to find a good google picture of the end of a EV14 nozzle to see if it's like that from Bosch or was done in the process of making it higher flow.
Do you mean the tip of the injector body or the inner portion for the spray pattern?

Here's what my FIC 650cc look like:

Attached Thumbnails
FIC (Fuel Injector Clinic) vs Injector Dynamics-ru3o5gb.jpg   FIC (Fuel Injector Clinic) vs Injector Dynamics-umgufrz.jpg  
petrolmed is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2013, 04:59 PM   #24
Elite Member
iTrader: (9)
 
TurboTim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Chesterfield, NJ
Posts: 6,485
Total Cats: 248
Default

The hole where the fuel comes out. It's one hole. Machined kinda ugly.
TurboTim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2013, 05:00 PM   #25
Elite Member
iTrader: (1)
 
Leafy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: NH
Posts: 9,092
Total Cats: 90
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TurboTim View Post
The hole where the fuel comes out. It's one hole. Machined kinda ugly.
Leafy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2013, 05:06 PM   #26
Elite Member
iTrader: (9)
 
TurboTim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Chesterfield, NJ
Posts: 6,485
Total Cats: 248
Default

Mike look like this:




not like this:


Amazing what happens when you change search terms in google image search.
Attached Thumbnails
FIC (Fuel Injector Clinic) vs Injector Dynamics-026-ev14-sumitomo_nozzle_600.jpg   FIC (Fuel Injector Clinic) vs Injector Dynamics-0280158040-nozzle_600.jpg  
TurboTim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2013, 05:19 PM   #27
Supporting Vendor
iTrader: (31)
 
Savington's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Sunnyvale, CA
Posts: 14,365
Total Cats: 1,326
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TurboTim View Post
You use that data with the AEM how?
It's not for the AEM - it's for the sake of comparison. Low-DC matching and linearity is what makes a big injector idle and drive correctly, which is why I prefer the IDs. I couldn't find any info on these topics on the FIC site, but I may have overlooked it.
Savington is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2013, 05:46 PM   #28
Elite Member
iTrader: (1)
 
Leafy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: NH
Posts: 9,092
Total Cats: 90
Default

Mine came with a sheet I looked at quickly. It seems like they are tested at 3 different duty cycles. Dont remember the duty cycles but it was something like 223cc, 468cc, 968cc. And mine ended up all being the same and on average being off by 0.50%. This is for 900s.
Leafy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2013, 06:31 PM   #29
Elite Member
iTrader: (6)
 
blaen99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 4,112
Total Cats: 27
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Savington View Post
It's not for the AEM - it's for the sake of comparison. Low-DC matching and linearity is what makes a big injector idle and drive correctly, which is why I prefer the IDs. I couldn't find any info on these topics on the FIC site, but I may have overlooked it.
So, back to post #7 :(.

Yeah, ID absolutely matches them closer to FIC Sav - but I don't know how many people on here are good enough to have a pair matched 0.25% or 0.50% closer make a difference.

I'm still at the stage where I'm going "ERMAHGERDZ, AUTOTUNE!", and "How the **** do I tune idle?!?!?" let alone "Holy crap, these injectors matched 0.25% more closely at low-DC at 285cc make it so much easier to tune!"
blaen99 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2013, 06:36 PM   #30
Ian
Junior Member
iTrader: (2)
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 163
Total Cats: 4
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Savington View Post
It's not for the AEM - it's for the sake of comparison. Low-DC matching and linearity is what makes a big injector idle and drive correctly, which is why I prefer the IDs. I couldn't find any info on these topics on the FIC site, but I may have overlooked it.
FIC supplies a sheet and mine are matched within 0.5% on the 650cc. IIRC the ID's are matched to 0.1% or closer, and that's what sets them apart. They are bar-none the finest injector you can buy.

That said, I don't need the finest injector so I opted for the FIC offerings.
Ian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2013, 07:09 PM   #31
Senior Member
iTrader: (8)
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Raleigh, NC
Posts: 617
Total Cats: 53
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian View Post
FIC supplies a sheet and mine are matched within 0.5% on the 650cc. IIRC the ID's are matched to 0.1% or closer, and that's what sets them apart. They are bar-none the finest injector you can buy.

That said, I don't need the finest injector so I opted for the FIC offerings.
I agree completely and same here. I did a good bit of research before deciding on them for my peppy street and some autox/track car. I'm happy with my purchase as of now. They're idling smoothly, as good or better than the stock setup, on my batch fire 1.6 using shitty MS1 .

Attached Thumbnails
FIC (Fuel Injector Clinic) vs Injector Dynamics-hqylpiz.jpg  
petrolmed is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2013, 08:11 PM   #32
Elite Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 6,454
Total Cats: 80
Default

It's not the 0.25% or 0.5% flow rate at 80% duty cycle that makes the difference between injectors.

It's the matching of the DEAD TIME at flow rates for idle.

Say at idle you need 500 us fuel flow time. Let's pretend dead time is 1.0 ms. So the correct PW at idle is 1.5 ms.

A 10% error in dead-time (1.0 to 1.1 ms), is a 20% error in fueling (i.e. 400 us to 500 us).

It gets worse with very large injectors. e.g. 300 us of fuel flow, 100 us error is 33%(!). That's 14.7:1 from one injector, and 10:1 from the other!

One thing I've never seen spec'd, is the "flyback voltage" of the injector driver used to generate the low flow duty cycle curves. Though AFAIK most are 55-60V, in most ECUs, this will change the dead-time.

Another I haven't seen is the low-duty-cycle dead-time curve at high vs low temperature - e.g. at 0*C, vs. 100*C. The dead-time tends to increase at high temperature - a big change produces problematic idle if tuned for one and run at another temperature. One could put some correction in ECU software, based on CLT....
JasonC SBB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2013, 09:20 PM   #33
I'm Miserable!
iTrader: (13)
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 255
Total Cats: 0
Default

Fuel Injector Clinic has some of the best customer service I have dealt with.
Before becoming a vendor for FIC I purchased a few injector sets direct as a customer, and I am pleased to say the customer service didn't change.
FIC has always been quick to respond via email, and always answer the phone. To this day all my orders with FIC are sent out same day, this only benefits you guys as a customer.
Seeing as the the employees at FIC are human, they have made ONLY ONE mistake with me and ironically it was on my personal car. They sent me a size that was larger than what I ordered. This was a zero hassle issue I called them up and they sent me my set and a return prepaid envelope.

I have had the pleasure to use both of the larger sets of injectors form ID and Fuel Injector clinic (ID2000cc/FIC2150cc) On customers cars.
Both injectors where fantastic. From idle to WOT its a continuous smooth feeling all the way to redline. The ev14 style injector are very easy to tune.

I have am currently using the fuel injector clinic 2150cc in my car now. (tuning soon)
You cannot beat the customer service, unbeatable price and, inexpensive plug and play option.
We are a fan of selling what we would use in our own cars, and Fuel injector clinic has won our heart.
I hope this was helpful. A lot of people misjudge the benefits of high quality customer service until its to late.

NOTE: We carry Fuel injector clinic, ID injectors, DW injectors, PTE injectors as well as RC.

Last edited by DoapParts; 03-12-2013 at 03:41 PM.
DoapParts is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-2013, 04:40 AM   #34
Supporting Vendor
iTrader: (31)
 
Savington's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Sunnyvale, CA
Posts: 14,365
Total Cats: 1,326
Default

The Same as Injector Dynamics But Cheaper

Interesting article from ID on FIC's data. The FIC users should probably read it.

I'll stick with my IDs. The new ID1300s should let me break 500whp on E85 later this year with a single-pump fuel system
Savington is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-2013, 06:23 AM   #35
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Martin, Slovakia
Posts: 513
Total Cats: 71
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian View Post
FIC supplies a sheet and mine are matched within 0.5% on the 650cc. IIRC the ID's are matched to 0.1% or closer, and that's what sets them apart. They are bar-none the finest injector you can buy.

That said, I don't need the finest injector so I opted for the FIC offerings.
Interestingly independent test data published on the ID website shows that random stock unmodified ev-14 injectors are the best performing in terms of low pulse width errors. http://www.injectordynamics.com/WhosGettingDrilled.pdf (page5)
Attached Thumbnails
FIC (Fuel Injector Clinic) vs Injector Dynamics-random-stock.jpg  
sturovo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-2013, 03:34 PM   #36
I'm Miserable!
iTrader: (13)
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 255
Total Cats: 0
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Savington View Post
The Same as Injector Dynamics But Cheaper

Interesting article from ID on FIC's data. The FIC users should probably read it.

I'll stick with my IDs. The new ID1300s should let me break 500whp on E85 later this year with a single-pump fuel system
One thing needs to be clear here, It seems there is some confusion in this thread.

"FIC" is commonly used as an abbreviation for both:

Fuel injector connection
&
Fuel Injector clinic.


The link that you shared was in reference to FUEL INJECTOR CONNECTION (FIC) not FUEL INJECTOR CLINIC.
http://www.fuelinjectorconnection.com/

There is no real comparison. Fuel Injection CLINIC is my number one choice for both value and quality. All data comes from IN HOUSE developing and testing.
http://fuelinjectorclinic.com/

-Brandon
DoapParts is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-2013, 03:51 PM   #37
Destroyer of Inconel
iTrader: (37)
 
EO2K's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In ur driveway, abusin' ur WPA
Posts: 9,642
Total Cats: 954
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sturovo View Post
Interestingly independent test data published on the ID website shows that random stock unmodified ev-14 injectors are the best performing in terms of low pulse width errors. http://www.injectordynamics.com/WhosGettingDrilled.pdf (page5)
And while that's great, what are you going to do with a OEM 230cc EV14 injector?

We know EV14s are the ****. If there was a drop-in Bosch/Volkswagen PN for 600-900-1200cc injector you know we'd all be running them. The point is that Bosch didn't bless us with big *** EV14s so we have to get modified ones. Modified things generally do not work as the manufacturer intended. I think the real questions thus become: Who is doing the best job modifying things? Who is doing the best job of matching? Who is doing the best job providing accurate data?

Or am I missing something?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Savington View Post
The Same as Injector Dynamics But Cheaper

Interesting article from ID on FIC's data. The FIC users should probably read it.
Wow, thats... wow. Thanks Andrew, make me question my injector purchase a 3rd time

Edit: Ok, Fuel Injector CLINIC -vs- Fuel Injector CONNECTION. I get it! Feel better already

Last edited by EO2K; 03-12-2013 at 05:51 PM.
EO2K is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-2013, 03:52 PM   #38
Tour de Franzia
iTrader: (6)
 
hustler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Republic of Dallas
Posts: 29,114
Total Cats: 351
Default

What it really comes down to is injector variation. I'm not going to run EGT or AFR on each cylinder to assure even ratios on each cylinder, I'm going to pay extra in injector to do that for me.

/thread
hustler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-2013, 03:54 PM   #39
Tour de Franzia
iTrader: (6)
 
hustler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Republic of Dallas
Posts: 29,114
Total Cats: 351
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DoapParts View Post
There is no real comparison. Fuel Injection CLINIC is my number one choice for both value and quality. All data comes from IN HOUSE developing and testing.
Fuel Injector Clinic

-Brandon
What kind of testing and development do you guys do with injectors?
hustler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-2013, 04:04 PM   #40
I'm Miserable!
iTrader: (13)
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 255
Total Cats: 0
Default

As stated above we have used Both ID injectors and Fuel injector clinic injectors many times. In both personal an customer cars.
We don't offer injector testing or developing, nor have we ever claimed to.

The topic of the tread is "FIC (Fuel Injector Clinic) vs Injector Dynamics"
I was clarifying that there is a difference between Fuel injector clinic and fuel injector connection. This way the members of the forum can be better educated.
DoapParts is offline   Reply With Quote
 
 
Reply

Related Topics
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Project Gemini - Turbo Civic on the Cheap Full_Tilt_Boogie Build Threads 58 Yesterday 10:04 PM
Changing from 460cc to flow force 610cc in diypnp 90 Turbo MEGAsquirt 19 10-19-2015 04:23 PM
Going back to stock. Need some 1.6 parts. Trent WTB 2 10-01-2015 01:15 PM
Time to start learning and play with tuning The Gleas MEGAsquirt 3 10-01-2015 10:30 AM
Walbro 255lph Fuel Pump $50 lsc224 Miata parts for sale/trade 2 10-01-2015 10:17 AM


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:01 PM.