Forged 1.6 Engine build!
07-27-2017, 01:29 PM
#61
This has by far been one of the more reasonable hand holding threads. Normally you'd be dismembered by now and left for dead. Only reason why I pointed toward Kraken's thread is iirc, they are already international shipping at super low prices. Their ebay listings show they are in UK and are here on Miata Turbo. Just buy your own TD04 turbo off a subaru for $100
Cast manifold thread
https://www.miataturbo.net/miata-par...anifold-93586/
Ebay post for 1.6L
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Miata-TD04L-...4AAOSwXXxZWUpl
Cast manifold thread
https://www.miataturbo.net/miata-par...anifold-93586/
Ebay post for 1.6L
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Miata-TD04L-...4AAOSwXXxZWUpl
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07-28-2017, 09:41 AM
#63
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Toward the last part of my post I was trying to lean on the selection of a turbo kit/system. Parts are parts, you can get them wherever you want. But if you value service and support after the purchase....you will get what you pay for with some vendors offering miata parts at discounted prices.
...
Yes when you support the community, the community supports you. Get whatever pistons you want from wherever but when you have questions about ring gaps or piston to wall specs, be prepared to dig around build threads because drop ship wholesalers will not have this answer for you especially if mixing and matching piston and ring manufacturers like many of us do for longevity. If you buy from 949 or TSE, you're an email and PM away from the answer because they eat sleep and breath this car, plus you've paid for the support that comes from buying products through them....
For very generic things like an EFR supercore or gauges, I've used THMotorsports with great success at great prices. But these are oddball items and not necessarily miata dependent.
...
Yes when you support the community, the community supports you. Get whatever pistons you want from wherever but when you have questions about ring gaps or piston to wall specs, be prepared to dig around build threads because drop ship wholesalers will not have this answer for you especially if mixing and matching piston and ring manufacturers like many of us do for longevity. If you buy from 949 or TSE, you're an email and PM away from the answer because they eat sleep and breath this car, plus you've paid for the support that comes from buying products through them....
For very generic things like an EFR supercore or gauges, I've used THMotorsports with great success at great prices. But these are oddball items and not necessarily miata dependent.
do the parts not come with their required specs inside the box?
I would have thought that something as important as piston to cylinder clearance would be included on some kind of spec sheet.
^^^This! I just bought my engine parts from FAB9Tuning. Did they come on time? Nope. Did I get customer feedback when I called and emailed over and over? Nope. Do I have the right parts: yes i have confirmed and cross referenced everything. Will I get any help if I have a question: ABSOLUTELY NOT. So when people on this forum tell you to do something a certain way you should listen. I am so surprised this group of people has continued to help you and act nice about some of your comments regarding what to do. It has been spelled out for you over and over.
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Trust me. I did it and still had much to learn. Good things take time.
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Trust me. I did it and still had much to learn. Good things take time.
i will probably ordering my parts from a mix of no limit motorsport and htune (based here). It is just too cost prohibitive for me to order stuff from the other places that you guys have suggested.
i wouldnt be here if i didnt want to learn!
and on top of that you still have to pay for the import fee's on the other end!
Cheers
This has by far been one of the more reasonable hand holding threads. Normally you'd be dismembered by now and left for dead. Only reason why I pointed toward Kraken's thread is iirc, they are already international shipping at super low prices. Their ebay listings show they are in UK and are here on Miata Turbo. Just buy your own TD04 turbo off a subaru for $100
...turbo stuff...
...turbo stuff...
But i thought this post was in the engines forum, not in the DIY turbo forum.
surely if i have made a post in the engine forum, and stated that i am only looking at engine parts right now, i shouldnt be getting as many turbo kit recommendations?
idk, over here people generally follow what the main subject of the thread is about.
When i want turbo's/kit recomendations i would start a new thread in the turbo section?
all this fuss and talk of "you would be left for dead" or this being a hand holding thread, just seems very strange to me.
I'm not upset per se, but me wanting to stick to engines, and engine bits and everyone throwing turbo parts and suppliers for turbo kits is just not how things generally work on forums over here.
People will stick to the original threads intention, which in this case, was purely my engine build.
Yes, people are giving me recommendations on where to buy my engine bits, but then getting pissy that i think they are too expensive for me to justify the extra support i will get if i go with them.
Sorry, i have to pay an extra 22.7% on top of all orders, in addition to international shipping on any bits i get from the US.
I'm sure i'll be able to find the information i need from others on the forums or from manufacturers websites, i thought that was what these were for?!
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07-28-2017, 10:08 AM
#64
Let me refresh your memory...First sentence of your first post. probably why you are getting turbo and turbo prep advice.
The left for dead comments stemmed from your obvious decision to not read the stickies in this forum. Tons of usefull advice pertaining to maost of the questions you have asked, as stated by another member. This forum is not like most. We are complete dicks. even senior members act like ******** towards one another. Accept it.
MiataTurbo is by far, the leading turbo miata information source. Venturing over to the other sites will most likely result in confusion and uncertainty. There is a reason 99% of the fast (turbo and track) cars come from this site. Sure from time to time we find applicable information on other sites, but not often. The latest link to a mitsubishi forum about catch cans was a good one.
Most quality engine internals with required machining processes, will include spec sheets for the machine shop.
Hi all,
I am currently in the process of building a forged 1.6 engine.
I have always wanted to build an engine, and after buying my MX5, with worn out piston rings, i have my opportunity to actually do it.
I am aiming for around 250-300WHP in the end with turbo, but i will probably start a bit lower, say 200, and get used to the car at that kind of power level, then turn it up a bit
I am currently in the process of building a forged 1.6 engine.
I have always wanted to build an engine, and after buying my MX5, with worn out piston rings, i have my opportunity to actually do it.
I am aiming for around 250-300WHP in the end with turbo, but i will probably start a bit lower, say 200, and get used to the car at that kind of power level, then turn it up a bit
The left for dead comments stemmed from your obvious decision to not read the stickies in this forum. Tons of usefull advice pertaining to maost of the questions you have asked, as stated by another member. This forum is not like most. We are complete dicks. even senior members act like ******** towards one another. Accept it.
MiataTurbo is by far, the leading turbo miata information source. Venturing over to the other sites will most likely result in confusion and uncertainty. There is a reason 99% of the fast (turbo and track) cars come from this site. Sure from time to time we find applicable information on other sites, but not often. The latest link to a mitsubishi forum about catch cans was a good one.
Most quality engine internals with required machining processes, will include spec sheets for the machine shop.
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07-28-2017, 10:34 AM
#65
About required specs being in the parts box.... nahh.. that really doesn't happen. the closest thing you may get is the factor formula for setting ring end gaps.
Each engine builder will use specs based of his builds and experience. you have some that like to build tight and others loose.
Now the specs in the FSM is where you start, and adjust from there. but that is the start point.
the rod bearing specs, and main bearing specs that is used in a NA "box stock" rebuild are not the same as the ones used on a 400 hp autocross race day build
same for ring end gaps
ditto for piston to wall clearance
doubt they be the same rod side clearance
ohh and the cylinder bore finish will be different depending on what material your rings are made out of.
So you have to talk with your machinist/engine builder like you would your priest, your Doc or your shrink.
Each engine builder will use specs based of his builds and experience. you have some that like to build tight and others loose.
Now the specs in the FSM is where you start, and adjust from there. but that is the start point.
the rod bearing specs, and main bearing specs that is used in a NA "box stock" rebuild are not the same as the ones used on a 400 hp autocross race day build
same for ring end gaps
ditto for piston to wall clearance
doubt they be the same rod side clearance
ohh and the cylinder bore finish will be different depending on what material your rings are made out of.
So you have to talk with your machinist/engine builder like you would your priest, your Doc or your shrink.
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07-28-2017, 11:05 AM
#66
Bogus- I have to disagree somewhat. please advise if you think Im wrong.
Pistons for example- yes the do provide recommended specs (at least mine did) and they can vary because of material used ie- weisco vs supertech.
I agree on builders having specs they like to use, but I also think those specs vary depending on material. Builder makes the choice , as you stated. My builder likes to use "loose" specs for sustained high rpm and boost over XX.
100% yeas, rings are a multiplication factor.
****, am I just rambling now?
Pistons for example- yes the do provide recommended specs (at least mine did) and they can vary because of material used ie- weisco vs supertech.
I agree on builders having specs they like to use, but I also think those specs vary depending on material. Builder makes the choice , as you stated. My builder likes to use "loose" specs for sustained high rpm and boost over XX.
100% yeas, rings are a multiplication factor.
****, am I just rambling now?
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07-28-2017, 11:18 AM
#67
Ryan, what the engineers of the piston believe the PTW should be is cut into the skirt. So a 4.030 finish bore is set up for a piston that mic's 4.0265-4.0270 giving .003 to .0035 PTW
that is assuming a perfect tune at a perfect compression at a perfect expansion of both block and piston
Now any number of things can go "Kaflewey" in the real world
your 1 of your 640cc injectors only spraying 580cc and throwing 1 cylinder lean
O2 sensor being off
compression more than figured
bad gas
wrong octane
and on n on on
any number of things can throw an engine lean and cause it to fry
But ahhhhh.... what are you disagreeing with?
that is assuming a perfect tune at a perfect compression at a perfect expansion of both block and piston
Now any number of things can go "Kaflewey" in the real world
your 1 of your 640cc injectors only spraying 580cc and throwing 1 cylinder lean
O2 sensor being off
compression more than figured
bad gas
wrong octane
and on n on on
any number of things can throw an engine lean and cause it to fry
But ahhhhh.... what are you disagreeing with?
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07-28-2017, 12:50 PM
#69
ok.... time for some math to explain this.
A mazda BP is a 83mm bore engine, so lets convert this in to a SAE number..
83 mm x .03937 =3.26771 or 3.268 std bore
Most go .020 over (.50 mm) so 3.288 FINISHED bore in the block
The pretty sexy wiseco pistons you bought are not 3.288 if they were you would have zero piston to wall clearance
So wiseco, when they made the piston cut the piston to wall clearance into the skirt of the piston
Wiseco, said due to the thermal expansion properties of this alloy, and the heat it should see from combustion, we want .0025 to .003 clearance between the skirt of the piston and the cylinder wall.
so Wiseco, cut the pistons to be 3.2855 to 3.285
A mazda BP is a 83mm bore engine, so lets convert this in to a SAE number..
83 mm x .03937 =3.26771 or 3.268 std bore
Most go .020 over (.50 mm) so 3.288 FINISHED bore in the block
The pretty sexy wiseco pistons you bought are not 3.288 if they were you would have zero piston to wall clearance
So wiseco, when they made the piston cut the piston to wall clearance into the skirt of the piston
Wiseco, said due to the thermal expansion properties of this alloy, and the heat it should see from combustion, we want .0025 to .003 clearance between the skirt of the piston and the cylinder wall.
so Wiseco, cut the pistons to be 3.2855 to 3.285
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07-28-2017, 12:51 PM
#70
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 25
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Let me refresh your memory...First sentence of your first post. probably why you are getting turbo and turbo prep advice.
The left for dead comments stemmed from your obvious decision to not read the stickies in this forum. Tons of usefull advice pertaining to maost of the questions you have asked, as stated by another member. This forum is not like most. We are complete dicks. even senior members act like ******** towards one another. Accept it.
MiataTurbo is by far, the leading turbo miata information source. Venturing over to the other sites will most likely result in confusion and uncertainty. There is a reason 99% of the fast (turbo and track) cars come from this site. Sure from time to time we find applicable information on other sites, but not often. The latest link to a mitsubishi forum about catch cans was a good one.
Most quality engine internals with required machining processes, will include spec sheets for the machine shop.
The left for dead comments stemmed from your obvious decision to not read the stickies in this forum. Tons of usefull advice pertaining to maost of the questions you have asked, as stated by another member. This forum is not like most. We are complete dicks. even senior members act like ******** towards one another. Accept it.
MiataTurbo is by far, the leading turbo miata information source. Venturing over to the other sites will most likely result in confusion and uncertainty. There is a reason 99% of the fast (turbo and track) cars come from this site. Sure from time to time we find applicable information on other sites, but not often. The latest link to a mitsubishi forum about catch cans was a good one.
Most quality engine internals with required machining processes, will include spec sheets for the machine shop.
Ok, well that is something i will have started to get used to at this point.
Miata turbo is indeed the leading info source on this stuff. hence why i joined. i have been reading through some more stuff
About required specs being in the parts box.... nahh.. that really doesn't happen. the closest thing you may get is the factor formula for setting ring end gaps.
Each engine builder will use specs based of his builds and experience. you have some that like to build tight and others loose.
Now the specs in the FSM is where you start, and adjust from there. but that is the start point.
the rod bearing specs, and main bearing specs that is used in a NA "box stock" rebuild are not the same as the ones used on a 400 hp autocross race day build
same for ring end gaps
ditto for piston to wall clearance
doubt they be the same rod side clearance
ohh and the cylinder bore finish will be different depending on what material your rings are made out of.
So you have to talk with your machinist/engine builder like you would your priest, your Doc or your shrink.
Each engine builder will use specs based of his builds and experience. you have some that like to build tight and others loose.
Now the specs in the FSM is where you start, and adjust from there. but that is the start point.
the rod bearing specs, and main bearing specs that is used in a NA "box stock" rebuild are not the same as the ones used on a 400 hp autocross race day build
same for ring end gaps
ditto for piston to wall clearance
doubt they be the same rod side clearance
ohh and the cylinder bore finish will be different depending on what material your rings are made out of.
So you have to talk with your machinist/engine builder like you would your priest, your Doc or your shrink.
I think I have decided on my final parts list for my forged items.
I will be getting Supertech pistons with Wiseco xx rings and Manley Rods. Works out a bit cheaper if I also get my ARP main and head studs, and my uprated timing belt shipped over as well.
Does that sound good?
As far as I have read that will make a pretty good combo.
Offering the lower expansion rate of the supertechs with the stronger Wiesco rings for better oil control.
And manley rods over eagle as my machine shop has recommended them.
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07-28-2017, 01:09 PM
#72
Bogus,
I got that. Standard practice cylinder prep. when you said cut the skirt, I thought you meant that they printed on there a measurement- that I had never noticed. I was is understanding what you were saying.
Adding to this mess, pistons are not round nor are the skirts parallel to each other. So if a beginner is reading this, there is a specific location to measure a piston for PWC..
I got that. Standard practice cylinder prep. when you said cut the skirt, I thought you meant that they printed on there a measurement- that I had never noticed. I was is understanding what you were saying.
Adding to this mess, pistons are not round nor are the skirts parallel to each other. So if a beginner is reading this, there is a specific location to measure a piston for PWC..
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07-28-2017, 01:14 PM
#74
Ryan.. sorry, its just the tale of the mic and the math
Most I have encountered did not know that the PTW was made into the skirt
Like the difference between high and low expansion of forged pistons, mainly those under a 4.00 bore, is about .001
so about a third the thickness of a sheet of note book paper, or a french light rolling paper
Most I have encountered did not know that the PTW was made into the skirt
Like the difference between high and low expansion of forged pistons, mainly those under a 4.00 bore, is about .001
so about a third the thickness of a sheet of note book paper, or a french light rolling paper
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07-31-2017, 06:08 PM
#76
Newb
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 25
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8.8:1, just checked
https://www.nolimitmotorsport.com/pr...-P4-MA7850-N10
Cheers, good to know!
I'll be speaking with my machinist about bore sizing when I order up my parts, I'll mention that to him
https://www.nolimitmotorsport.com/pr...-P4-MA7850-N10
I'll be speaking with my machinist about bore sizing when I order up my parts, I'll mention that to him
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