high compression e85 turbo bp? - Page 2 - Miata Turbo Forum - Boost cars, acquire cats.

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Old 04-16-2013, 11:30 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by mspdmx3 View Post
Fellas, here's the link to the thread that got me thinking about a low compression e85 build, possibly. It is only one case, however its note worthy. I normally build high hp pump gas cars, which is why I wrote this thread, to get educated on others experience with bps and e85. Don't argue and get salty about others opinions. Also, just to be clear (not arrogant), 300whp is not what this thread is about, that's cake on pump gas. I'm talking upwards of 400whp. So far I've seen jonptp make 400+ on e85 and soviet.


High Compression, E85, and a Big Turbo - Experiences - NASIOC
I don't believe the subie guy for a second. You don't add half a point of compression and lose 80-100whp, regardless of what fuel you're using. He lost all of his power in the cam change and is too stupid to realize it.

The key to tuning a BP (as you probably know) is timing. Big timing is king, and compression is secondary. This is why you make more power on pump gas with less compression and more timing than you do with lots of compression and detonation-limited timing. Once you reach MBT, however, you can add compression again.

MBT on E85 is walking helmet easy. Theseus took ~22* of timing through the torque peak at 17psi and all it did was make less power than 20* (that was on an 8.6:1 bottom end).

There used to be a car owned by an M.net member (eliminator77). He switched from a pump+meth setup making 575+whp to an E85 setup. I talked to him a long time ago about his motor setup, and he said that he had built an E85-specific shortblock to 9.4:1 and regretted not going higher. The next bottom end I build for Theseus will be ~10.5:1 to take advantage of the safety cushion provided by E85.
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Old 04-17-2013, 01:20 AM   #22
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Lol, I apologize to you man, overlooked your quote and thought you were replying to my last post.
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Old 04-17-2013, 01:46 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by 18psi View Post
My previous build was exactly what you're talking about. Used 9.5:1 and it was fine on both fuels.

Experience: lots and lots of time with a semi-built 300whp e85 powered '00 1.8L
Itty bitty threadjack for a sec here... your "last build" was the car in my SIG, correct? I understood it has 9:1 pistons in it. Does it have 9.5:1 pistons in reality?
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Old 04-17-2013, 03:52 AM   #24
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Let me get this straight, your telling me if i wana make more power i should lower compression?? So in other words on a boosted application, i can turn DOWN the boost pressure to make MORE power?? That totally makes sence.. May i ask what herb you are smokin sir? Cause i want some..
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Old 04-17-2013, 04:13 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Tork View Post
Let me get this straight, your telling me if i wana make more power i should lower compression?? So in other words on a boosted application, i can turn DOWN the boost pressure to make MORE power?? That totally makes sence.. May i ask what herb you are smokin sir? Cause i want some..
Post less, read more. There's more to tuning than "more compression = more power". I've been tuning forced-induction BPs for ~7 years now and on pump gas, you can make more power with less compression and more timing. Cylinder pressure means nothing if you don't make it at the right time.
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Old 04-17-2013, 04:30 AM   #26
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Congrats.. For what shop? You didn't answer my question either. Inn your theory less boost makes more power..? In that what you're trying to tell me? Yes or no? and yes I know there's more to tuning than just compression, but 90% of the people on here wouldn't understand what we're talking about. I'm also aware that in order to make the most power your trying to reach maximum cylinder pressure at ~15* atdc. i went to school once upon a time. Tuning is just not what i choose to pursue because we already have to many tuners/dynos in my area
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Old 04-17-2013, 05:02 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tork View Post
Congrats.. For what shop? You didn't answer my question either. Inn your theory less boost makes more power..? In that what you're trying to tell me? Yes or no? and yes I know there's more to tuning than just compression, but 90% of the people on here wouldn't understand what we're talking about. I'm also aware that in order to make the most power your trying to reach maximum cylinder pressure at ~15* atdc. i went to school once upon a time. Tuning is just not what i choose to pursue because we already have to many tuners/dynos in my area
Man are you really this stupid?

90% of the people dont know what "we're" talking about? Seems like you're the only person here that doesn't understand what anyone is talking about including your own garbage that you're blabbering.


Both increase power,
Higher compression ratio increases power.
More timing increases power.

That said here is the problem. The higher the compression the less timing you can run. The higher the timing, the less compression you can run. On our BP motors you get more power out of timing than you get from compression therefore

TIMING>COMPRESSION.

ONCE you reach MBT and dont have knock, THEN you add compression.

Get it now?
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Old 04-17-2013, 06:10 AM   #28
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Man are you really this stupid?

90% of the people dont know what "we're" talking about? Seems like you're the only person here that doesn't understand what anyone is talking about including your own garbage that you're blabbering.


Both increase power,
Higher compression ratio increases power.
More timing increases power.

That said here is the problem. The higher the compression the less timing you can run. The higher the timing, the less compression you can run. On our BP motors you get more power out of timing than you get from compression therefore

TIMING>COMPRESSION.

ONCE you reach MBT and dont have knock, THEN you add compression.

Get it now?
Lol. How is our bp "engine" (not motor), any different from any other piston engine on the face of the earth? Normal people build and engine first (yes including the static compression part of engine building) THEN you go to the dyno to tune your engine (this is the part where you ad timing until you reach peak torque.) After that your done, not go replace pistons to increase compression..

So to recap, build engine -> tune engine -> play time.
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Old 04-17-2013, 07:11 AM   #29
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Engine:
4: a machine for converting any of various forms of energy into mechanical force and motion; also : a mechanism or object that serves as an energy source <black holes may be the engines for quasars>

Motor:
1: one that imparts motion; specifically : prime mover
2: any of various power units that develop energy or impart motion: as a: a small compact engine b: internal combustion engine; especially : a gasoline engine c: a rotating machine that transforms electrical energy into mechanical energy

So yes a piston engine = motor.

How is our bp motor different than any other motor? A lot of ways, head, valves paths, cams, intake manifold... By your theory every single 1.8 should make the exact same power as any other 1.8 and we all know thats not the case. That is how our motors are different from any other motors.



Now to answer your other question which apparently you still don't seem to understand, you see people like Savington have built more engines than the amount of hair follicles you have on your *********. If you read some of his stuff you might learn something.

So to recap, you build an engine, you tune the engine, then you play, then you **** up the said engine or sell the parts or whatever the case may be, then you build again with new parts and new choices from what you've learned in the process. Sometimes you're the pioneer in trying something new, other times you copy the specs someone else used.

Last edited by triple88a; 04-17-2013 at 07:26 AM.
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Old 04-17-2013, 07:17 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by triple88a View Post
Engine:
you build an engine, you tune the engine, then you play, then you **** up the said engine or sell the parts or whatever the case may be, then you build again with new parts and new choices from what you've learned in the process.
That sums up my last 6 years pretty good
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Old 04-17-2013, 07:20 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by Tork View Post
So to recap, build engine -> tune engine -> play time.

Let me give you some free universal advice here. You can apply this in modified form to almost anything in life. Judging by the impression you have done so far, you probably should.
A. Get your head out of your ***
B. Check up a little on whom you are discussing with, what his/theirs merits are and how they are regarded in relevant communities. Are they a 19year old punk in their parent’s basement, or are they actually professionals with documented merits?
C. Allow yourself to accept that you MIGHT be wrong about some things sometimes. That everybody is wrong from time to time and that there is little shame in saying “****, I totally didn’t know that.” every now and then. Just relax, take a step back and contemplate the fact that you COULD be wrong and that there is little shame in it.
D. Get back to this thread and read thru it.
E. Post reply.
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Old 04-17-2013, 08:56 AM   #32
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I thought Tork was telling triple88a to get his head out of his ***, then I realised Tork is not the same person as Torkel!

Sorry Torkel for thinking you were that clown!
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Old 04-17-2013, 10:03 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by Tork View Post
Be a man, run 10.5:1 or higher.
It's too bad, if you would have shut the **** up right there we wouldn't know you are a huge idiot. Better to keep your mouth shut and be though ignorant than to open it and prove it.
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Old 04-17-2013, 10:17 AM   #34
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So 8.5:1 for pump gas, and 11:1 for e85?
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Old 04-17-2013, 10:28 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by turbofan View Post
Itty bitty threadjack for a sec here... your "last build" was the car in my SIG, correct? I understood it has 9:1 pistons in it. Does it have 9.5:1 pistons in reality?
You're right, my bad: it has the 9.1
I totally forgot I replaced the slugs last minute "just in case" I would continue using pump gas (wasn't as many e85 stations around back then)

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Lol. How is our bp "engine" (not motor), any different from any other piston engine on the face of the earth?
Yet more proof that you know jack squat about what you're so passionately arguing.

You continue to flaunt your ignorance and the worst part is you're too arrogant to shut up and actually read what people are saying to you.

How many BP's have you built?
How many of them made over 400whp?
Post them up, right here and right now. Lets see pictures.

If they're not turbo BP's or built miata's or other cars with the BP, guess what:

WE DON'T CARE WHAT YOU THINK YOU KNOW.

Many of us built many other cars and many other engines. None of us are ignorant enough to think that they all run and tune the same and need the same things when making power. Sure the "basic principles" of making power apply to all internal combustion 4 cylinder engines. You pump more air and fuel through the engine, you make moar powarrr, moar squish moar bang, herp derp.....

You're probably one of those folks that thinks all cars handle the same because they have 4 wheels huh?




Quote:
Originally Posted by Dot3 View Post
So 8.5:1 for pump gas, and 11:1 for e85?
Pretty much. IMO pump gas I'd stick with 9.1 or lower, and e85 I'd stick with 10.5 or higher. So basically what sav and the guys are saying in here.

Last edited by 18psi; 04-17-2013 at 10:47 AM.
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Old 04-17-2013, 10:41 AM   #36
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I was getting lost with post saying 11 then others saying 8.5. Just making sure I got it.
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Old 04-17-2013, 10:57 AM   #37
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This thread brings the lulz.



OP, interested to see what you do. I find it interesting when the CP/Escort guys come over here, knowing that quite a few of them were making over 300whp on stock motors years ago using awful bullshit tuning setups, and they were holding together.


Build it, show me how much of an idiot i was to pull the BP out of my race car and chuck in a KL.
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Old 04-17-2013, 11:08 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by concealer404 View Post
This thread brings the lulz.



OP, interested to see what you do. I find it interesting when the CP/Escort guys come over here, knowing that quite a few of them were making over 300whp on stock motors years ago using awful bullshit tuning setups, and they were holding together.


Build it, show me how much of an idiot i was to pull the BP out of my race car and chuck in a KL.
I think this is a good enough example.

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high compression e85 turbo bp?-20130410_182842.jpg  
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Old 04-17-2013, 11:11 AM   #39
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I think this is a good enough example.






That wasn't an inherent KL issue.

Now.... if that happens AGAIN on the built motor, then yep. **** a bunch of KL. Don't now that i'd put a BP back in the car, but it'll be a Mazda 4 cylinder of SOME sort.
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Old 04-17-2013, 11:30 AM   #40
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Sure the "basic principles" of making power apply to all internal combustion 4 cylinder engines. You pump more air and fuel through the engine, you make moar powarrr, moar squish moar bang
Scratching my head here guy because this is what I'm saying. Then you sayI'm wrong. But then you agree with me on what i was arguing..?
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